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  1. #1
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    N55 Hybrid update / comparison

    Hey guys, shipping 3 more kits early next week. We should be seeing a lot more numbers soon once they are installed and tuned via either a COBB, or the JB4 options. So far as we all have seen the results are nothing less than stellar.Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

    Also lets do a little looking and comparison at the newer "cheaper" N55 hybrid option. The manufacture creating this hybrid, stood on a soapbox and proclaimed to anyone who would listen that any N55 hybrid option is " A PIECE OF JUNK" and they were only going to make a "true" N55 upgrade with entirely new turbo and manifold if you remember, they also proclaimed they had no use for stock cores as a hybrid was NOT the way to go. Now they we have proven this is NOT the case they are all of sudden back in the N55 hybrid game, with a smaller, much less durable, much less efficient, Journal Bearing upgrade for most likely about a $1000 less. Lets start by keeping in the mind the reputation the Garrett DBB turbos have, it is unmatched in the turbocharger industry.

    What does this mean for you, it means, when boost is turned up, BP, and EGT start to get to dangerously high levels, (we are not there yet on this upgrade) the DBB option will brush it off for much much longer, than a standard JB turbo. We ALL know the issues the N54 hybrid upgrades have at these elevated BP and EGT levels, failures are all too common. We have experienced them too. Going with a bulletproof Garrett DBB CHRA basically elmininates those possible issues for thousands of miles more, so your choice, spend a little less money for potential problems as seen in the N54 hyrbids, or go with the industries leading bulletproof turbo option. Not much of a choice.

    This doesn't even begin to touch on the spool, and transient response characteristics of the DBB option over a JB turbo, these are well documented, and compared to a JB turbo are VASTLY SUPERIOR in those characteristics. The manufacture is saying they went with a smaller compressor wheel to "combat" the slower spooling JB turbo. If you know anything about turbochargers, or just do some basic research for that matter, you will know compressor size has VERY LITTLE to do with spool, spool is dictated by turbine size, housing size, and A/R. Going with a smaller compressor will do NOTHING to help the JB turbo spool any faster if the turbine is the same size.

    So with all that taken into account. We could have easily made a JB hybrid for a grand less, released it much sooner, sold it for that price, and moved on to other things, but why do that when you can build the best of the best and be confident it will last 10's of thousands of miles. Yes we are wondering the same thing. Click here to enlarge

    Please, do not take this as a bash on the other manufacture, they make quality products, this is a factual comparison of the two types of turbos, the saying you get what you pay for always holds true. JB turbos are inferior to BB turbos, this is not even up for debate.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 01-12-2014 at 03:59 PM.

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    So I must have missed it. Who is the 'other' manufacturer of this hybrid?
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    RB

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    Okay thanks.
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    Sorry if I'm misunderstanding but is someone selling JB turbos for the N55?

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    Rob recently began development again on the n55 hybrid. He put the project on hold back in November after saying it wasn't worth it and that the n55 needed a real upgrade. Suddenly he's back in the scene...which is great for the community....

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by iuhutch Click here to enlarge
    Rob recently began development again on the n55 hybrid. He put the project on hold back in November after saying it wasn't worth it and that the n55 needed a real upgrade. Suddenly he's back in the scene...which is great for the community....
    Guess he realized he needed to address the N55 to keep $ coming in with the N54 evolving to the next level turbo upgrades.

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    Or he saw Tonys outcome and realized there was a market out there Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by iuhutch Click here to enlarge
    Or he saw Tonys outcome and realized there was a market out there Click here to enlarge
    He always knew there was a market, he completely dropped the ball on the reverse rotation stuff told everyone he had an upgrade on the way, posting updates etc, he was going to put an EFR CHRA in the housings, then a forum member had to point out to him that the stock turbo was reverse rotation, after that he went into recovery mode and bashed everything we were doing with the N55, calling it a piece of junk, saying it wouldn't make close to 500 WHP, the N55 needed a "real" upgrade etc etc. Then he realized, the very small market his kit was going to garner and how easily our properly sized upgrade made the power we said it would. All of sudden, not only were N55 hybrids not a pieces of junk and not worth the time, now is back in the game making one with a lower quality JB center section, and a smaller compressor wheel to "combat" the slower spool of the JB turbo. Compressor wheels size has little to no effect on spool, he knows this, he is just trying to use tech talk to get people behind the smaller, and lower quality option. Thats the bottom line, competition is welcome, bring it on, but be informed of what the differences are, lower quality, less efficient, slower spooling JB CHRA, and smaller compressor wheel, for a slightly discounted price.

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    Edited by request, please read the Guest Vendor rules.

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    Hi Rob,
    is there any ETA?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335i-BB Click here to enlarge
    Hi Rob,
    is there any ETA?
    Posting this in the wrong thread bud, there will be no product updates on a competitors product in my thread.

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    0 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Also Rob, you want to discuss your product, make your own comparison thread. Notice how I didn't post a single thing in your threads? It's called professional courtesy. If you would like to discuss the merits if your product, do so in your own thread.

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    Edited by request, please read the Guest Vendor rules.

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    *Sigh*

    I would rather see you two have a logical calm non bashing discussion that we can all see in one thread about the pros and cons on each of the options out there. As only one product is available continue the discussion until 3rd party performance is confirmed.

    Once performance is confirmed by a 3rd party for both products start a new thread comparing the performance and continue the discussion from there.

    Having two threads and the vendors not able to respond to one another or other potential customers seems asinine to say the least. If you are both confident in your products I don't see why you wouldn't do this.

    I mean you made a thread 100% focused about his product, why it's a bad choice compared to yours, and then don't allow him to speak to other members who post in the thread asking him a specific question?

    The fact the guy asked that question is what in sales we call a 'buying question' he's obviously interested in buying. Now you two get to close him.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    *Sigh*

    I would rather see you two have a logical calm non bashing discussion that we can all see in one thread about the pros and cons on each of the options out there. As only one product is available continue the discussion until 3rd party performance is confirmed.

    Once performance is confirmed by a 3rd party for both products start a new thread comparing the performance and continue the discussion from there.

    Having two threads and the vendors not able to respond to one another or other potential customers seems asinine to say the least. If you are both confident in your products I don't see why you wouldn't do this.

    I mean you made a thread 100% focused about his product, why it's a bad choice compared to yours, and then don't allow him to speak to other members who post in the thread asking him a specific question?

    The fact the guy asked that question is what in sales we call a 'buying question' he's obviously interested in buying. Now you two get to close him.
    Honestly, your opinion does not interest me, I am here for business, not to play forum fun like 99% of the people here who just like being here and posting or whatever. This is MY product thread, I do not want my competition posting anything about his product in my thread period. Thats like him standing outside our shop and telling my customers about his product, furthermore he isn't even a vendor here, still wont pay sticky $100 bucks a month to support the users of this forum. I will be having that post removed as it is not his place to post anything about his product in my thread. I used to post in competing vendors threads as well, then I realized, that is one thing E90 has right. If you want to pitch your products, go for it, become a vendor and start your own threads, vendors should not be allowed to pitch their wares in other vendors threads, period. The fact that he has one post here a day is his own doing. He could start a thread and pitch all the great attributes of what he is doing, if he just became a vendor. That's great, but do not do it here in my business thread. We have 3rd party performance confirmation, in the way of WHP record, WTQ record, and 1/4 record. Once he catches up he can get some performance numbers and do some comparing, but from a factual comparison of just turbocharger technology stand point, everything I said is correct. BB > JB, this is not up for debate, it is a FACT.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 01-16-2014 at 04:30 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Honestly, your opinion does not interest me, I am here for business, not to play forum fun like 99% of the people here who just like being here and posting or whatever. This is MY product thread, I do not want my competition posting anything about his product in my thread period. Thats like him standing outside our shop and telling my customers about his product, furthermore he isn't even a vendor here, still wont pay sticky $100 bucks a month to support the users of this forum. I will be having that post removed as it is not his place to post anything about his product in my thread. I used to post in competing vendors threads as well, then I realized, that is one thing E90 has right. If you want to pitch your products, go for it, become a vendor and start your own threads, vendors should not be allowed to pitch their wares in other vendors threads, period. The fact that he has one post here a day is his own doing. He could start a thread and pitch all the great attributes of what he is doing, if he just became a vendor. That's great, but do not do it here in my business thread. We have 3rd party performance confirmation, in the way of WHP record, WTQ record, and 1/4 record. Once he catches up after having an N55 apart for nearing 2 years now he can get some performance numbers and do some comparing, but from a factual comparison of just turbocharger technology stand point, everything I said is correct. BB > JB, this is not up for debate, it is a FACT.

    No, my opinion is and was of obviously interested you. It caused you to both quote me and then write a 16 line reply with no spaces Click here to enlarge. If you aren't going to put in spaces to separate your thoughts at least give us a TL/DR.


    Next, you call this "My product thread" Dude this thread is 100% about why his product is inferior and yours is better. Just reread your 1st post. If it was solely about your product you wouldn't of literally dragged rob into it comparing your released product with his unreleased product. Does Rob make threads about you like this on other forums? Is that why you made this? Honest question.


    Going out of your way to talk down a competitors product, one that isn't even available for sale mind you, is called bad business. So is taking thousands upon thousands of customer's money to develop a product that doesn't exist and then refusing refunds but lets not go into that Click here to enlarge


    edit #1 : I have no horse in this race. I'm not interested in either of your product offerings unless one of you develop a ST. Just calling a spade a spade.

    edit #2 : I put in double spaces to make up for your lack of spaces.
    Last edited by Torgus; 01-16-2014 at 04:42 PM.
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    Not going to debate with you man, not interested. Rob is a great guy who makes some great products. He realized that is a huge market for the N55 hybrid and possibly also realized he spoke a little too soon on shooting down said hybrid's as pieces of junk and not worth it. That he wants to jump back into the N55 hybrid game is a smart move on his part, his stage 3 kit would be a very tough sell for the newer cars. With that being said, I still do not want him pitching his products in my thread, this is business nothing personal.

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    Not trying to fuel a fire here but felt compelled to throw in my $.02 on forum etiquette.

    I have to agree with Togus here. It's as if I for example made a thread titled "why the JB4 is so much better than the procede" and then blocked procede people from participating. I'd lose all credibility on the subject. If I'm so confident to make such a bold thread then I'd want procede people here to participate in the debate.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Not trying to fuel a fire here but felt compelled to throw in my $.02 on forum etiquette.

    I have to agree with Togus here. It's as if I for example made a thread titled "why the JB4 is so much better than the procede" and then blocked procede people from participating. I'd lose all credibility on the subject. If I'm so confident to make such a bold thread then I'd want procede people here to participate in the debate.
    There are merits to what you are stating.

    That said, the vendor rules allow vendors to make decisions over who can or can not participate in their threads. So, it's ultimately up to each individual vendor.

    I like your style Terry but it isn't for everyone.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Not trying to fuel a fire here but felt compelled to throw in my $.02 on forum etiquette.

    I have to agree with Togus here. It's as if I for example made a thread titled "why the JB4 is so much better than the procede" and then blocked procede people from participating. I'd lose all credibility on the subject. If I'm so confident to make such a bold thread then I'd want procede people here to participate in the debate.
    See Terry this is where you are missing the point. If you made that statement it would be your opinion of your product over the procede and which is better. Thats up for interpretation, when comparing a JB turbocharger to a BB turbocharger there is NO DEBATE, ask anyone anywhere in any position within the turbocharger industry, from the ceo of Honeywell, the ceo of Borg Warner, the owner of precision, the owner of FP, while you are at it, go ahead and ask your boys over at fftec why they sold you a BB turbo instead of a JB, you had the option to go JB, its much cheaper. But you chose to go BB, why? Well its because they are BETTER, plain and simple. Not an opinion, not a debate, its a known FACT. BB turbos out perform JB turbos in every area from, durability, to spool, to transient response. I was not comparing Robs offering with mine, I was comparing a JB turbo with a BB turbo, his offering just based off the fact that it is a JB turbo is inferior, I am not saying this, the ENTIRE turbocharger industry knows this. That would be like, a guy offering a motec tune for the N54, and you offering the JB4 for a lot less, are they both capable, of course they are, can they both make more power than without them, of course then can. But its just fact that a standalone is better than a piggyback, but it comes at a premium. This isn't even up for debate. Now lets address your last comment, I am blocking Rob from participating? Really, no HE IS BLOCKING HIMSELF, he wont pay $100 dollars to be a vendor, if he did, he could have his thread right along side mine, stating whatever he wishes, and I would stay out of it, why because its his BUSINESS thread, this isn't play time. I am here to sell products, period. That is why I invest money in being a vendor and why I do not want direct competitors pitching their products in my threads. Its a pretty basic business concept, if RB wants to defend his product here on BB, buy a vendorship and do so, he has no problem buying on on E90, so that tells us all, he doesn't think the people who are here on BB either A: are worth it because they don't spend money, or B: He only wants to pay for one forum at a time and he chose E90. Either way, NO he is not welcome to post about his products in my threads, period. Now if he sold tunes as you do, I wouldn't give 2 $#@!s what he posted, but he is selling a product in direct competition to mine, and one he claimed was a piece of junk idea. Well he took that piece of junk idea and is now selling an inferior piece of junk as defined by the entire turbocharger industry. The end.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 01-17-2014 at 06:39 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    See Terry this is where you are missing the point. If you made that statement it would be your opinion of your product over the procede and which is better. Thats up for interpretation, when comparing a JB turbocharger to a BB turbocharger there is NO DEBATE, ask anyone anywhere in any position within the turbocharger industry, from the ceo of Honeywell, the ceo of Borg Warner, the owner of precision, the owner of FP, while you are at it, go ahead and ask your boys over at fftec why they sold you a BB turbo instead of a JB, you had the option to go JB, its much cheaper. But you chose to go BB, why? Well its because they are BETTER, plain and simple. Not an opinion, not a debate, its a known FACT. BB turbos out perform JB turbos in every area from, durability, to spool, to transient response. I was not comparing Robs offering with mine, I was comparing a JB turbo with a BB turbo, his offering just based off the fact that it is a JB turbo is inferior, I am not saying this, the ENTIRE turbocharger industry knows this.
    I understand what you are saying.. I mean an M3 is better than a 335 because it costs 2x as much, right? But when you start to talk value you get in to subjective arguments. I'll just make up an example. Say the BB turbo spools 300rpm faster than the JB but costs $1000 more. Which is better? It depends. The question becomes which is better for me? And that's why these discussions are interesting to would be consumers.

    I'm not saying this should be occurring in your product threads. But since you made a thread comparing the two, this seems an appropriate place?
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    As a random uninterested party with no plans to buy any N55 turbo kit, I have to agree with Terry. It's one thing to make a thread about your product, explaining why it is superior to any competitor. But the original post is clearly targeting a specific competitor's product. To not allow them a chance to respond in defense of their product seems unfair. Ultimately it is your thread, Tony, and your decision, but as long as the discussion is respectful, I would hope that you'd allow your product to stand on its own merits.

    If I had an N54, I would not hesitate to buy a Stage 3 kit from you. It is without a doubt the best high power solution on the market. As an educated consumer, I find vendor fighting to be distasteful. A vendor discussion, on the other hand, is a good thing. Choice of product is rarely a black or white situation. Having a civil discussion will better allow the consumer to choose what is right for them.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    As a random uninterested party with no plans to buy any N55 turbo kit, I have to agree with Terry. It's one thing to make a thread about your product, explaining why it is superior to any competitor. But the original post is clearly targeting a specific competitor's product. To not allow them a chance to respond in defense of their product seems unfair. Ultimately it is your thread, Tony, and your decision, but as long as the discussion is respectful, I would hope that you'd allow your product to stand on its own merits.

    If I had an N54, I would not hesitate to buy a Stage 3 kit from you. It is without a doubt the best high power solution on the market. As an educated consumer, I find vendor fighting to be distasteful. A vendor discussion, on the other hand, is a good thing. Choice of product is rarely a black or white situation. Having a civil discussion will better allow the consumer to choose what is right for them.
    I guess no can see what I see, or listen to what I am saying. I do not care who is making another N55 hybrid, it could be Dinan, it could be BMW for that matter, anyone. If it is a JB turbocharger and similar in size, it is inferior to a BB turbocharger, period. I am not blocking anyone from defending their products. If you want to sell your wares on BB, pony up to the bar pay your vendors fees and do so, but I will not pay to be a vendor and have a competitor advertise in my thread, on my dime, not happening. That this is hard to comprehend is starting to really baffle me. No offense towards you at all, I appreciate the kind words about stage 3, but this is pretty cut and dry, if anyone wants to advertise, defend a product, etc, etc. Become a vendor here and do so, absolutely nothing stopping anyone.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    If it is a JB turbocharger and similar in size, it is inferior to a BB turbocharger, period. I am not blocking anyone from defending their products. If you want to sell your wares on BB, pony up to the bar pay your vendors fees and do so, but I will not pay to be a vendor and have a competitor advertise in my thread, on my dime, not happening.
    You are absolutely right. A journal bearing turbo is always inferior to a ball bearing turbo in performance applications, disregarding price. I also agree that a serious vendor should have no trouble paying, what, $1200 a year for this forum? That's what, the net profit from three units? Maybe I'm off there, feel free to educate me. The only problem I have with the OP, as a neutral party, is that even though at the end, you say it isn't a bash on the other manufacturer, you basically bash on the other manufacturer. It's probably just a simple issue of phrasing. And really I'm just trying to help, but when you say things such as...

    The manufacture creating this hybrid, stood on a soapbox and proclaimed to anyone who would listen that any N55 hybrid option is " A PIECE OF JUNK" and they were only going to make a "true" N55 upgrade with entirely new turbo and manifold if you remember, they also proclaimed they had no use for stock cores as a hybrid was NOT the way to go.
    I personally think that could be better said as, "Others have stated that this is not the way to go, but here is the proof of the effectiveness of this Vargas hybrid turbo." I think it's less confrontational, and more supporting the benefits of your own products. Click here to enlarge

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