Thread: Article: Anyone and everyone can lose a motor - Blown ESS-Tuning VT3 supercharged M3 S65 V8 engine
01-10-2014, 01:43 PM #76Member
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“I was running VT2-625 with 92mm pulley” and
“I installed VT2-650 spec crank pulley and 94mm SC pulley which resulted to almost 9 psi boost.”
So he knew the impact of changing the pully and I am guessing the risk of adding more boost.
I have never done any business with ESS, so I cannot comment on them being shady. That is not my place to make any decision or comment.
We are on different sides of these transactions. I am the customer/racer and you are the builder. Honestly, I would be a bit upset if I was not able to get your most cutting edge stuff. The key is that I need to understand that once I move out of the bullet proof set ups, it's all on my dime.
I think where ESS went wrong was in choosing the customer. It seems they have a long history. At this point, they both should know what they are getting.
On both sides, attitude counts. I know nothing about how each side treated/spoke to each other. I do know that if I call you and said "Andrew, I struggling with this set up. We need to figure out how to fix XXX issue" I will get alot more than blasting you in a forum or to your face. At these levels (making the fasetes of anything) it has to be a partnership.
01-10-2014, 01:47 PM #77
01-10-2014, 03:21 PM #78Supporting Vendor
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Last edited by Andrew@activeautowerke; 01-10-2014 at 03:32 PM.
01-11-2014, 08:29 AM #79Member
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He is not complaining that his VT2 S/C Kit blew, he was happy with blowing that one as it lasted so long; ESS was happy to have him as he was running the car in the Unlim 500. its when things go sour that both parties have issues - Customer because his newly rebuilt motor lets go - ESS because customer spoke publicly about his disastrous ordeal
01-11-2014, 11:55 AM #80
01-12-2014, 02:45 AM #81
Anyone and everyone can lose a motor - Blown ESS-Tuning VT3 supercharged M3 S65 V8 engine
The photos you will see below are of a blown S65 V8. Even the novice enthusiast can glance over the photos and see that something clearly was not right. So who is at fault? Is it ESS for a sloppy product? Is is it the owner for pushing his setup beyond where he should have? Is it perhaps a bad batch of fuel? Is it perhaps a freak accident? Is it perhaps a combination? The point being when you supercharge a high revving V8 that comes from the factory naturally aspirated you are taking risks.
No company is expected to cover user error. If this is a case of the user pushing too much boost it is clearly his own fault. However, if this is the case of a product that has not undergone significant testing and without the necessary quality tuning to accompany it that would mean blame is not in the hands of the user.
BimmerBoost is quick to point out there are hundreds of ESS supercharged cars on the road logging thousands of miles and running well. BimmerBoost is also quick to point out there are not thousands of miles on VT3 built motor setups and ESS does not officially even offer such a setup. How some users end up with these setups that one can not even officially purchase is up to you to figure out.
When modifying cars there is a certain risk involved. Especially when pushing past double the horsepower if not more than a car had off the assembly line. It is important to work with a company that will work with you. Somebody that understands that pushing the limit comes with risks and there may be errors that are not anyone's fault. You live, you learn, you move on, and try to address whatever needs to be addressed.
Below you will find the owner's take and you will also find the take of ESS-Tuning. Read it all and come to your own conclusion. Additionally, if you wish to push the limit keep in mind you should choose a company that will work with you and address any problems for your benefit as well as their own. There is a difference between supercharging and tuning an M3 and building the M3 S65 V8, supercharging it, and tuning it. If you make the wrong decisions you may end up in a finger pointing game with nothing positive being accomplished.
"It's a long story and the thread's title is self-speaking but I want to share that $#@!ty situation I've been dropped in these "Happy New Year" days....
My car is E90 M3 2008 with DCT - well known in Russia (Moscow Unlim 500+) and Europe being the fastest ESS car there.
The story started in October 2009 when my car became the world's 1st production E9X M3 with ESS SC kit. The milleage was 13,000 miles at that moment. The car was DD and going through lots of pulleys and soft modifications, I was running VT2-625 with 92mm pulley (which is equal to VT2-650) for 2.5 years when in May 2012 at 67,000 miles the engine decided to blow... Piston is 7th cylinder was broken somehow and 3 inches hole appeared in the block...
That time I bought low-milleage (less that 1,000 miles) used 2011 engine and installed it. In May 2013 I installed VT2-650 spec crank pulley and 94mm SC pulley which resulted to almost 9 psi boost. That setup was used for 1 day Race Event (1 Mile race) only with 104 RON race fuel. After that day the car was reverted to normal VT2-650 specs.
However, in 2 weeks after that day this new engine also decided to blow, being used for 13,000 miles only... The hole in the block appeared in the 4th cylinder...
No need to say that the car was always serviced with love and oil was changed every 3,000 miles and fuel used was 98+ RON...
So, 2 engines gone is 1 year((((((((((
That time I agreed with ESS to send the car as it is to Norway from Russia for full VT3 build... That was late June 2013.
31 October 2013, after lots of problems with availability of BMW OEM spare parts, I received the car!!! However, it was tested on dyno for 50 runs and only half day of driving after the build cause it was very cold already in Norway...But the car was running absolutely clean during that testing (per ESS understanding) and Hans delivered the car to me!!!
1) fully build VT3 engine (low milleage "donor" was bought by them in Germany) with 10:1 pistons, Carillo rods, ESS rod bearings etc.
2) fully build VT3 fuel system.
3) VT3 belt system.
I was very happy and started my long trip to Moscow (1,500 miles) which I considered the best way for breaking in the engine on good european fuel...
On my trip to Moscow engine RPMs were no more than 4,000 - I am very conservative in breaking in procedures.... When I came to Moscow, I changed the oil and decided to go and make 2-3 runs from 40 to 250 kmh to understand the difference...
In the 1st run the car was extremely fast and was spinning the wheels at 2-3, 3-4 and 4-5 gear changes like it was lauch control from the stand point... even spinning the wheels so badly and hitting the RPMS limiter at all gears 100-200 kmh time was 5,7sec which is almost 0,9 sec faster than my VT2-650 best summer time on DRs!!!
I decided to start againg and at 4th gear at 6000 RPMS I felt some "boom-boom" sound in the exhaust and little jerking during the acceleration... That time I stopped testing and the next day the car was taken to a trailer to be delievered to my native town (1,000 miles from Moscow)...
I went to BMW dealer for diagnostic of any potential problem and had conversations with ESS on that... Nothing was found, except for some instability in fuel pressure regulator work, and ESS sent me out that regulator which I was waiting for 3 weeks from US... In the meantime, I was driving the car moderately and found the thing that the car was starting jerking at any speed if I floor the pedal more that 1/4, but at the same time could easily heat 270 kmh if pushing the peda moderatedly....
The whole milleage by the day of receiving new fuel pressure regulator and new sparks and coils (ESS recommendation to change) was 400 miles... Also, I ordered and received by that day Awron Gauge with full options...
However, when we let off the sparks, the following picture was with the spark from 4th cylinder... It was melted.... All other sparks were OK...
We measure the compression ration in all the cylinders and.... 10.5-10.7 in all except 4th cylinder - 8.8....(((
So, we installed all the new plugs, coils and FPR, and also fully discassembled the manifold for installation of EAS stack for boost gauge, then assemble all back and I leaved the dealer for testing... The car was running sooo clean that day on mid RPMS and fast driving!!! So, I decided to go full throttle...
1st run from 3rd gear from 40 to 230 kmh was clean and the time from 100 to 200 kmh was VT3 time...) I stopped the car and tried againg but from 2nd gear from 30 kmh. And.... at 7000 RPMS of that 2nd gear the car started jerking and afterwards working like 2 or 3 cylinders are not working.... (((
On that conditions I drove to the dealer (15 miles)... So, the whole milleage after changing the sparks etc was 70 miles. We took off the spark from that 4 th cylinder and it was melted the same way We measured the compression in that cylinder and it was 5.... Changing the spark did not help at all and the car did not work properly....
I decided to take it to the trailer to Moscow fro investigation by letting off the heads to understand the problem in detail... That was discovered:
1) From the side of 1-4 cylinders:
> burn-through of cylinder head gasket near 3-4 cylinder (2.7sm approx hole)
> scratches in 3 and 4 cylinder
> broken piston in 4th cylinder around the bottom of piston and not good piston in 3rd cylinder
2) From the side of 5-8 cylinders:
> scratches in 5 and 8 cylinders
The guys told me that the traces of detonation could be found in all 8 cylinders...
The only thing I am doing for last 7 days is crying in the situation of full silence and absence of support from anywhere"
You have been told for a very long time you have no warranty or support on your kits because you have always modified them with additional boost going back to your very first kit which ran a 92mm pulley. The VT2-625 runs a 96mm pulley with much different software than a 650 kit. You should never run a VT2-625 with a 92mm pulley unless you intend to take full responsability. AJ has always told you that your motors will blow if you run more than intended boost while racing at your events. Your 2008 car was over boosted and lasted 67,000 of hardcore racing. It lasted much longer than it really should have, you were lucky.
Your second motor you ran the VT2-650 crank and the same 92mm pulley which generates close to 12 psi of boost. This is far beyond what we run on our production kit. Off the shelf VT2-650 runs a 99mm SC pulley and generates 8 psi which is max you can run. Even if you claim 94mm with the 650 crank this is much smaller than what we spec and still generates close to 11 psi, you knew this at the time.
We do not sell a VT3 product to the public currently, there is no such product on our website and we do not offer support for such a product currently. You were informed that if we built you a prototype high boost setup there would be no support on it. You also picked up the vehicle without allowing us to do any road testing. You were informed by AJ at the time that we did not have proper time or road conditions due to weather to do any extended testing but you insisted on taking delivery anyway. You later contacted AJ complaining of hesitation on acceleration and a diagnostic report showing a failed 02 sensor. You were told NOT to drive the car at all until you could install gauges to monitor fuel delivery / AFR's which you did not do. You decided to continue driving the car anyway despite AJ's instructions up to speeds 180 mph according to your email. Your motor failed after you were warned to not drive it. I’m not surprised the motor gave out considering you most likely had a fuel delivery issue like a failed pump pickup or fuel pressure regulator and maybe a bad 02 sensor with continued high load use.
We told you before the motor blew to send the car in for inspection and you refused. You said you wanted to do it local. After your motor failed Hans told you over the phone last week to get the motor inspected locally then and follow up so we could see what could be done. You just emailed AJ and Hans yesterday with the results. Why would you make a post saying no one has followed up with you when we just got your email this weekend and we offered to help you out before the motor ever failed?
This is a very good reminder as to why we tell customers to NOT modify our products and run more boost than designed and to follow our instructions at all times. Hopefully customers who currently are doing so or are considering doing so will learn from your mistake and not run more boost than we design the kit to run."
"Again, just to make this 100% clear: There is a very good reason we set the maximum boost pressure the way we do in the various kit stages. We do not leave massive amounts of safe power on the table as some people seem to think. If you increase boost over our standard settings, there will be a much greater risk of failure as Sergei has demonstrated. The fact that the bolt-on 625 kit ran for 67.000 miles with a massively overboosting 92mm pulley is actually much longer than expected.
When Sergei was getting ready for the Moscow unlimited 1 mile race on his second engine he asked me what I thought of running the 650 crank/92mm SC combo, and I specifically told him that he may get through the race but that the engine will with very high probability be damaged in a short period of time. The stock S65 simply can not take 11-12 PSI. He made his race, and the car ran for another week or two before caving in -as expected. The cost of a new engine is the price he chose to pay to run 4PSI overboost at his event.
When it comes to the VT3, it is critical that fuel delivery is monitored at all times. If any part of the new stand-alone, high capacity fuel system fails the engine will be damaged in a matter of seconds at high load. In Sergei's case with a brand new VT3 prototype setup being installed, I told him that I strongly recommend leaving the car with us for 6-8 weeks after assembly to properly test it in various conditions. He did not have time for this and forced us to deliver the car 1 day after assembly with only a few dyno pulls and a short road test in 35F, wet roads conditions on it's back. He then chose to ignore my specific instructions on not operating the car hard without O2 monitoring equipment installed. I specifically recommended the EAS gauge setup. He chose to ignore all warnings, and he denied to send us the car back when he experienced high load acceleration hesitations and a primary O2 sensor on bank 2 error code. Instead he kept driving the car without any monitoring equipment until the engine eventually had massive failure due to fuel starvation combined with high load operation.
We received the email of the engine condition yesterday from Sergei, and my initial plan was to simply have the car sent back to us in Norway as previously instructed and sleeve the block/install new pistons and go through the entire fuel system/O2 sensor system again to find the error that most likely has developed during his 2000 miles of use as the car operated and dynoed correctly before we delivered it. This is a relatively quick and easy fix that does not cost very much, however we do not and we never will give any kind of warranty on high-boost custom setups as the chance of failure is very high unless the driver is attentive and has proper measurement gauges installed. The VT3 is a race setup, and it should only be used by people who are aware of it's risks and high chance of long term problems due to the massive power delivery and the complex nature of the system. Sergei was informed over and over again of these risks, both on overboosting his previous VT2 kits as well as on the prototype VT3 setup.
Sergei's VT3 engine build, boost and software is identical to Drew's setup. The only difference that keeps Drew's still running strong is the awareness of the driver when operating such a complex and delicate beast. If an O2 sensor goes bad, back off it! If one of the fuel pumps stops working correctly, back off it! Follow these simple rules and the VT3 will live for a long time as Drew has demonstrated."
01-12-2014, 03:01 AM #82
The tuning on a supercharged M3 is not based strictly on boost. The boost ramps in with RPM on a centri. The algorithm will accomodate a different sized pulley. Of course there is a breaking point but when a company has 5 psi figured out do you think the tuning changes to some huge degree for 6 psi, 7 psi, 8 psi, etc.? Or is it more that you need to have the supporting fuel?
On a lowered compression setup the pressure should not be harder on the pistons/cylinder/rods at the same boost if not a bit higher.
01-12-2014, 03:02 AM #83
EVERYONE HAS HAD A TUNING ERROR.
You can blow anything. Nothing is indestructible.
My S65 will destroy whatever you own and I don't even need to know what you own to say that.
01-12-2014, 03:03 AM #84
01-12-2014, 03:06 AM #85
Aren't they the guys doing turbos now because they' e been there and done that with SC's?
I can't stress how awesome this is. I just hope to beat up on a few VT3 cars before it's too late. Drew, I'm going to bend you over. That is if you don't run away like you did from Gintani's M6 at Shift-Sector. Enjoy that second place trophy. Pretty soon it will be third, fourth, and then Mr. Irrelevant.
01-12-2014, 03:08 AM #86
01-12-2014, 03:09 AM #87
01-12-2014, 03:11 AM #88
01-12-2014, 03:12 AM #89
01-12-2014, 03:16 AM #90
Did I try to have BMW warranty my transmission? Nope. Did I return it to stock and see what they could do for me? Nope. Out of my own pocket as it should be.
Who was it again that took off their SC when they heard noises and then sold the car? Oh yeah:
01-12-2014, 05:59 AM #91Burger Motorsports
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01-12-2014, 02:43 PM #92I haul things...
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ESS is about a joke, seriously. I'd go Active or Gintani and that's it. This is inexcusable and not a cheap mistake that can be swept under the rug
01-12-2014, 05:01 PM #93Member
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I think its extremely obvious what happened here...the guy continuously modifies the ESS kits past what they were designed to handle, and pays the price every time. ESS's reply makes perfect sense. If you've ever built an engine or know anything about how engines (especially boost high-comp engines) work, it seems to fall into place.
01-12-2014, 06:50 PM #94Member
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Tuning error over 3 engines? Yeah right.. Blame ESS then for making this high potential S65 NOT quick enough over the 1 mile race in Moscow then. ' YOU GOTTA TURN UP THE BOOST TO GO HARD MY FRIEND ! ' and what happens la..only 4 more psi, it will do it... ( it will if you boost and pray hard! )
Tuning error is such a lame excuse for blowing up engines. Don't see i ever blow any of my race engines back then because of tuning error? I don't care what engines la, VR38, S65, S55 , N54,...but coming by to put in a comment or two for your mate in Russia, ( you even know him? Or is it the S65 code of loyalty you're playing here? ) is something only someone like YOU can even think of. Is this your engine we're all talking about? No ma, then why the hell does it concern you? he's got the money to blow S65's ma let him la, he could be doing a few more for all he cares! But one thing that is funny la, blow dy still don't understand why he blew it.... Tsk tsk tsk...
Let me give you a freakin brilliant idea here la, bring your Mickey Mouse toy after you've fully built it ( when la??? ) and ship it all the way to Moscow this year, run with the big boys destroy ALLLL the GTR's and others there and restore some pride back for BMW then ONLY start talking, else if you don't walk the talk, it's ( its ok, don't have to thank me for it k)
Show everyone here the problem with his wqs only a tuning problem, for MY ( sorry YOUR ) S65 triple turbo charged M3 blew every one to bits there.. Wait?, you need 3 to do it? ( might be a good idea Gintani , since you guys are doing one already now )
Don't get me wrong here, i started buying BMW's all in one year last year so i do like them today for what they drive like ( today only k, not back in 2007 when they launched a V8 M3 !) and I don't consider the GTR a car that I will ever buy, despite praising its power potential but it could be anything out there today man. Even a fukin Hyundai if they could ever come up with one! ( wonder if it'll tickle you if I said 1000 whp Hyundai earlier )
Just because BMW came out with a high revving V8 in the E92 M3 , don't come acting so damn obvious that you're just licking its balls no matter how rough of a ball it is . It's history now my friend, time flies, technology went ahead, turbos and 6 cylinders came back, ( wonder what happened to the other 2 look at the F82 M3/4, now that's what I call potential! BMW can build anything but its always about a 6 'er in an M3 ( and I don't wanna hear what you think! )
Eh if it was Nissan that originally came up with this V8 engine, you still lick it or not la?
Now for the destroying part, before you go open your mouth and claim how you're GONNA destroy this that him or her, TAKE NOTE, THERE IS ALWAYS A BIGGER FISH THAN YOU IN OUR OCEAN, no matter which freaking ocean it is!! Now I don't even wanna dust the 1 inch thick layer of dust from my nicely retired drag car to even run your little toy la, no matter what you did to it, what you have done to it, what you're GONNA to do to it, S65 or not, M Fukin 3 or not, for when I was laying down 8 sec passes back in 08 , you were probably still like a little boy jerking off looking at the newly launched E92 M3 back then, ' woah! V8, Big revs, big potential, and its a BEEEMAH! Lovely!
WHY DIDN'T BMW BOLT A PAIR OF FREAKIN TURBOS ON IT BACK THEN!!!!
Then you could probably save your dollars on a bolt on supercharger for a ( DESIGNED TO BE N.A motor! ) making only what? 700 horse ar? Gosh.. Back then I would have junked the car if all it could do was to give me 700 after dumping so much money into it...no freakin torque some more..aiya.. Like that go buy Honda much cheaper....
Waste my time , my fuel and my tires blowing your silly little toy to oblivion today, DON'T EVEN MENTION BACK THEN!
And mind you it's only a freaking 6 cylinder! ( why some people need 8 to pump up their head full of ego )
That does 5 figure rpm pulls!! ( so don't go bragging bout rpms in your 65 my friend! )
errr... Let you in on a secret, It wasn't a Bimmer k...Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha....
Talk speed , revs and power with me ar...
Give you 2 more years la also you won't be worth my time!
Hey will someone please get me out of this thread ! Am getting intoxicated with His stink!
01-12-2014, 07:56 PM #95
01-12-2014, 08:03 PM #96
I haven't spoken to this person or told him to do anything at all. He posted his impressions independent of me or anyone else so WTF are you babblnig about?
At what point was anything in the article written about people building M3's specifically to race GTR's? Do you not understand the topic? Are you high?
01-12-2014, 10:30 PM #97I haul things...
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Wow, that was the most incoherent post I've ever seen @Dixchen, it never once had a rational thought. Yes I love GTRs, but what the $#@! does that have to do with ESS selling a kit they don't stand behind or support, or have even tested throughly?
You sir have had too much Vodka, or live too close to Chernobyl
01-13-2014, 11:15 AM #98
Sounds like he did everything exactly as they told him not to do. His impatience leads to him buying new engines, therefore you purchase experimental products he knew there is absolutely and under no certain circumstances receives no support.
That is a bad owner, but he does what he wants so he should be ok with the predicted results.
01-13-2014, 01:50 PM #99
01-13-2014, 01:55 PM #100