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  1. #1
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    Personal best, 12.249 @ 113.5 with 135 just tune + meth!!

    Last night I made a trip to the strip with some other local 135s. The weather was perfect for racing.

    Cool 77 degrees, not a cloud in the sky, strip was not packed when we got there.

    I got 3 solid back to back runs and then 2 more towards the end of the night.

    Personal best for this car is 12.249 @ 113.5 and ran a 12.299 @ 112 before that.

    Mods are just 18 Ohm JB3 and CMGS meth injection with pre-turbo injection.

    Tires are Dunlop Direzza Z1 255 rears.

    Best 60 foot was 1.76 for the 12.299 run

    60 foot of fastest run was 1.8 for the 12.249 run

    Boost was a solid 17 psi taper down to 14.5, I let the car shift (AT). I brake boosted off the line, short burnout beforehand.

    I will post up slips and videos soon.

    We had a great time!
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    Last edited by DBFIU; 10-07-2010 at 04:07 PM.
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    wow dude, thats verrrry impressive! 1.8 on a 60' with rwd is really good man, are you manual or auto? how did you launch?
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  3. #3
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    Auto, held brake down and kept revs at about 2200 then let off brake and when i felt the car hook i brought throttle all the way open, it just takes off.

    One run I tried bringing it up to 2500 and I let off brake and spun out and ran a 13.0, so you have to find the right spot for your tires. Too high and you will break traction and run a 13. My tire combo seems to like 2-2.2k RPM and 50% throttle right off the brakes, then go 100% when you are 25 feet out. Just time it right and you can get a good 60 foot.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    how were the other cars running as comparison? good time for just a tune+meth, but then again, those are the two biggest power adders Click here to enlarge and you're sure you wrote it right when you said 'pre-turbo injection'? that would mean your compressor is getting hit with the mixture?
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    For some reason that night lots of cars were trapping low. There was a substantial headwind, maybe that had something to do with it.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    What do you mean by "pre-turbo injection?"

    Is the meth being added between the turbo and the intercooler?
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

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    Amazing 60 for street tires man.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Amazing 60 for street tires man.
    Seriously, dipping into the 1.7's is impressive.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Thanks guys I was focusing all night on the launch, it was tricky and theres a lot to remember but it can be done.

    The pre-turbo injection is referring to injection points before the compressor. This is a pic of the setup, it's a bad pic so ignore the messyness.

    I dont know if it was helping much at all at the track, it shines moreso on the highway at higher speeds when things get really hot. Plus this is an experimental setup and it is very mild, I am taking baby steps to optimize it.

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    i really do not think you should continue your set-up as is. as im sure you know, water does not compress, and spraying your w/m mixture pre turbo is a bad idea, if you want it spraying and atomized way before the intake mani you can spray on the hot side of the i/c where the pipes meet, otherwise, you can easily say goodbye to your compressor wheel(s). im definitely no expert on ICE's nor water/meth injection nor atomization, but i know a little about a lot and what ive heard from many well educated people is spraying pre-turbo is a very bad idea.
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    Spraying pre-turbo is a bad idea if I dont take the correct measures, that is right; I did the best I could to mitigate these risks.

    I never use mixtures, always 100% meth which vaporizes extremely fast.

    Pre turbo injection only comes on at 12 psi via boost switch, which means the air is moving very fast which also aids in vaporization.

    I am spraying very small quantities, M2 nozzle per filter which is about 50 ml/min per nozzle.

    Been like this for two months so far and my wastegate duty cycle hasnt been effected which means the efficiency of the compressor has not changed much during this time, which is safe to say that the tips of the compressor have not yet degraded. The only way to really know is a fiber optic borescope and take a look at the compressors.

    But yea it is dangerous if you use any water in the mixture, I never do.

    The inlet piping is also very long, it gives the meth a lot of time to vaporize before entering the compressor.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    interesting, and thanks for the thorough reply, m2 nozzles huh? well props for being innovative i suppose, and yeah, without water you should be okay. im just curious, why choose this set-up over the long tested well working method. better distribution?
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    No problem at all.

    My reasoning is this, these turbos are so small that once you begin to bump up boost pressure it doesnt matter what you do AFTER the compressor; the air leaving it will leave at some MASS FLOW RATE. This mass flow rate DOESNT CHANGE no matter what you do thereafter the compressor.

    Unless, you make the air dense entering the compressor and make it less prone to rising in temperature (introducing cool vapor) you now have a homogenous mixture of air + vapor that is denser, harder to warm up and allows the compressor to effectively work less to compress the air to target boost. All this equates to a turbo working more efficiently and spinning slower while making same boost.

    Does it work? I have a PLX gauge inside my car measuring intercooler outlet temps and I can say that it drops stock IC outlet temps by a good 5-10 degrees, which means the compressor outlet temp drops by about 20-30 degrees. As far as power, I dont know since I have no yet dyno'd it. I have done numerous logs on ignition, throttle blade, air temp etc... and it definately doesnt hurt.

    I am not going to divulge all this information just yet because I am going to write a tech article devoted to pre turbo injection and the N54.

    Thanks for looking out though, good eye Click here to enlarge
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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  14. #14
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    DBFIU, great info, I like your mindset and the fact that you test your tweaks. Keep up the good work, and great times!

    Have you checked your timing? I'm thinking that you may be holding yourself back by tapering all the way down to 14.5psi from 17, but you are still fast regardless.

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    I see your point on trying to make the compressor work easier, but by injecting liquid upstream you are putting it at risk. Most times it will all evaporate, but all it takes are a few droplets to cause damage to the compressor wheel when it is spinning at 200,000rpm++. A small amount of damage will kill the efficiency of your compressor and negate any advantage to the meth injection. I think it's one of those things that will work for some period of time, but after 30k miles of it you may be surprised at what you find when you finally get a chance to look at the compressor.

    The best place to inject is right after the intercooler. That way, the intercooler has removed as much heat as it can and the meth/water gives you an incremental temperature drop + octane bump from the meth.

    If you put the injection post compressor/pre intercooler you will just make your intercooler less effective since the temperature difference between the charge air and ambient air will be much less.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    No problem at all.

    My reasoning is this, these turbos are so small that once you begin to bump up boost pressure it doesnt matter what you do AFTER the compressor; the air leaving it will leave at some MASS FLOW RATE. This mass flow rate DOESNT CHANGE no matter what you do thereafter the compressor.

    Unless, you make the air dense entering the compressor and make it less prone to rising in temperature (introducing cool vapor) you now have a homogenous mixture of air + vapor that is denser, harder to warm up and allows the compressor to effectively work less to compress the air to target boost. All this equates to a turbo working more efficiently and spinning slower while making same boost.

    Does it work? I have a PLX gauge inside my car measuring intercooler outlet temps and I can say that it drops stock IC outlet temps by a good 5-10 degrees, which means the compressor outlet temp drops by about 20-30 degrees. As far as power, I dont know since I have no yet dyno'd it. I have done numerous logs on ignition, throttle blade, air temp etc... and it definately doesnt hurt.

    I am not going to divulge all this information just yet because I am going to write a tech article devoted to pre turbo injection and the N54.

    Thanks for looking out though, good eye Click here to enlarge
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Plus this is an experimental setup and it is very mild, I am taking baby steps to optimize it.
    Fyi pre-compressor injection will wear out your impellers prematurely.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Fyi pre-compressor injection will wear out your impellers prematurely.
    If you inject 1000 ml/min through the compressor, I havent gone that far and I am taking as many precautions as I can to prevent that. I will be viewing the compressor through a borescope soon so we'll see.
    Some people live long, meaningful lives.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    I see your point on trying to make the compressor work easier, but by injecting liquid upstream you are putting it at risk. Most times it will all evaporate, but all it takes are a few droplets to cause damage to the compressor wheel when it is spinning at 200,000rpm++. A small amount of damage will kill the efficiency of your compressor and negate any advantage to the meth injection. I think it's one of those things that will work for some period of time, but after 30k miles of it you may be surprised at what you find when you finally get a chance to look at the compressor.

    The best place to inject is right after the intercooler. That way, the intercooler has removed as much heat as it can and the meth/water gives you an incremental temperature drop + octane bump from the meth.

    If you put the injection post compressor/pre intercooler you will just make your intercooler less effective since the temperature difference between the charge air and ambient air will be much less.
    Any injection after the compressor is just going to cool down air that is flowing at some predetermined mass flow rate dictated by the compressor efficiency and RPM.

    If you look at the compressor map of these turbos, at 17 psi and 6500 RPM you are running terribly inefficient, something like 62% i believe. Which means you are basically moving the same amount of air at 16 psi because that air is not as hot. If you cool down the 17 psi air after it has exited the compressor you have no changed the air mass flow (oxygen content has not changed). so whats the point in going to 17 psi, or 18 psi or 19 psi? there is no point, unless you inject pre turbo and force the compressors to shift their efficiency back to the left because now you just 'resized' your compressor, slightly. Its hard to explain but im sure you get it.

    so far it works well, we will see what happens soon after I take a look at the compressors.

    In essence, this may sound a little crazy and i dont plan on doing this; but removing your intercooler alltogether using this type of liquid intercooling will yield even larger gains. But its not usually done on a street car, pre turbo injection is good stuff when done right; a lot can go wrong which is true too.
    Last edited by DBFIU; 10-11-2010 at 02:42 AM.
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    I forgot to mention, its kinda hard to see the inside of the filters but the nozzles do drip quite a bit after they come off line. Those drops fall onto the filter element and not the sidewall piping of the intake. Its hard to explain but the droplets dont make it to the compressor. Mist will make it, the droplet size of that mist is yet to be determined which is really my only risk factor.
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    I think you're mixing thoughts on volumetric flow/velocity with mass flow here.

    You can argue the mass flow is set at different points in the engine (air filters, turbo, intake, exhaust), but assuming there are no real bottlenecks, you are right that the compressor will set the mass flow. However, it is compressor size and rpm only. Efficiency does not have an effect mass flow!

    Efficiency really has an effect on compressor outlet temperature, and therefore density of the outlet flow. The efficiency gets worse as we try to push more pressure ratio from the turbos so the outlet temp at 17 psig is higher than the outlet temp at 16 psig. But if the IAT is the same AT THE INTAKE MANIFOLD, there is obviously more mass flow at 16 psig compared to 17 psig. The density may be low pre-intercooler, and velocity will be high, but there isn't much in the way of pressure drop along the big sections of duct work.

    Pre-compressor injection will indeed lower the compressor outlet temps by increasing the compressor intake air density, but the price in compressor wear is high. As a note here, it's not just dripping after injection that is worrisome. If liquid accumulates ANYWHERE (on the sides of the ducts for example) it will come off, not as a fine mist, but as big drops. These can easily screw your compressor. Something to think about.




    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    Any injection after the compressor is just going to cool down air that is flowing at some predetermined mass flow rate dictated by the compressor efficiency and RPM.

    If you look at the compressor map of these turbos, at 17 psi and 6500 RPM you are running terribly inefficient, something like 62% i believe. Which means you are basically moving the same amount of air at 16 psi because that air is not as hot. If you cool down the 17 psi air after it has exited the compressor you have no changed the air mass flow (oxygen content has not changed). so whats the point in going to 17 psi, or 18 psi or 19 psi? there is no point, unless you inject pre turbo and force the compressors to shift their efficiency back to the left because now you just 'resized' your compressor, slightly. Its hard to explain but im sure you get it.

    so far it works well, we will see what happens soon after I take a look at the compressors.

    In essence, this may sound a little crazy and i dont plan on doing this; but removing your intercooler alltogether using this type of liquid intercooling will yield even larger gains. But its not usually done on a street car, pre turbo injection is good stuff when done right; a lot can go wrong which is true too.
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    I think you're mixing thoughts on volumetric flow/velocity with mass flow here.

    You can argue the mass flow is set at different points in the engine (air filters, turbo, intake, exhaust), but assuming there are no real bottlenecks, you are right that the compressor will set the mass flow. However, it is compressor size and rpm only. Efficiency does not have an effect mass flow!

    Efficiency really has an effect on compressor outlet temperature, and therefore density of the outlet flow. The efficiency gets worse as we try to push more pressure ratio from the turbos so the outlet temp at 17 psig is higher than the outlet temp at 16 psig. But if the IAT is the same AT THE INTAKE MANIFOLD, there is obviously more mass flow at 16 psig compared to 17 psig. The density may be low pre-intercooler, and velocity will be high, but there isn't much in the way of pressure drop along the big sections of duct work.

    Pre-compressor injection will indeed lower the compressor outlet temps by increasing the compressor intake air density, but the price in compressor wear is high. As a note here, it's not just dripping after injection that is worrisome. If liquid accumulates ANYWHERE (on the sides of the ducts for example) it will come off, not as a fine mist, but as big drops. These can easily screw your compressor. Something to think about.
    The bold is pretty much what I am trying to say. I am willing to take the risk to just try something different and see if it indeed works.

    Compressor speed and size pretty much dictates mass flow as you are saying, but if you start moving to lower efficiency islands compressor exit temperature goes up and density goes down. That is what I am looking for.

    I ignore volumetric flow considerations in my calculations because mass flow is what I am after. Volumetric flow is controlled by the VE, displacement, RPM etc.. of the engine... which dictates mass flow given pressure/temperature of your charge air.

    In the gas turbine industry we don't like to use volumetric flow because it does not tell you anything about the state of the gas.

    A lot of things effect compressor outlet flow, inlet temp/pressure is one thing that does, since I can't work with anything on the turbo itself I might as well try this.

    If you have anything else to suggest let me know I am open to ideas.
    Last edited by DBFIU; 10-11-2010 at 05:37 PM.
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    Let me guess, you're an electrical engineer that works with gas turbines? The electrical analogy seems to point to that. I'm actually a mechanical engineer who works with gas turbines so I know all too well what your talking about. But I usually use hydraulics to explain electric circuits!

    You're very right about volumetric flow not meaning squat. It's all about lb/hr. Really lbs/hr of O2.

    I guess I need to clarify my statement that compressor rpm and size control mass flow. Inlet density also factors in (but outlet density doesn't). Rpm and size set volumetric flow, and density with volumetric flow set mass flow. So you're absolutely right that denser compressor intake air will provide more mass flow to the engine. Note, compressor efficiency is still not a factor in establishing compressor mass flow.

    In the gas turbine world, you can make significant gains with inlet cooling. Either water injection or refrigeration systems. But gas turbines aren't intercooled (the GE LMS100 is really cool because it is).

    Depending on the part of the gas turbine world you are familiar with (power or aeroderivatives) you may know that so called wet compression is used on some gas turbines. In wet compression you actually purposely let droplets enter the first few stages of the compressor. This gives big gains in power. This is done all the time with older industrial gas turbines that are very robust (GE 7EA) but never on newer technology gas turbines (GE 7FA). The reason is that the newer compressors are not as strong as the older ones and wet compression will destroy the newer compressors over time while the older, beefer designs can take the abuse.

    That's the trade off. I applaud you for innovating in the N54 world!! I hope our compressors are more like a 7EA.

    For your setup, I would still recommend meth/water injection post-intercooler to drop the temps at the intake manifold and increase density as it fills the cylinders. The combo of the two should be really interesting.
    Last edited by Doug007; 10-11-2010 at 05:41 PM.
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

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    Hah I am also a mechanical engineer but i use the electrical analogy because people tend to grasp that better than anything else. Not that I assumed you wouldnt sometimes I just babble.

    Oh I just deleted that "battery" statement too LOL, oh well, sticky can bring it back if he wants.

    I am quite intimate with the GE series gas turbines, I work for GE Energy on Bucket/Nozzle heat transfer analysis and CFD simulations on cooling for secondary flow. Did some analysis on the 9H in baglan bay, aren't you jealous Click here to enlarge

    I actually got the idea from the water injection they use on the big mama jama gas turbines. Only difference is those compressor blades are enormous and can handle tons of water an hour easily.

    I hope I dont blow this thing up, oh well live and learn; someones gotta do it!

    Edit: funny you are familiar with the 7FA engines, I am not allowed to talk about the newer design they are coming out with though it's supposed to fix a little 'problem' with the DLN 2.6+ combustor cans Click here to enlarge and some other pesky sh1t that shuts the turbines down.
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    On 7FAs I was more talking about row 0 (compressor inlet) blade failures! Most plants have stopped using wet foggers because of that issue.

    I have no idea how robust our compressors are, but I would go very slowly if I were you. With meth injection post-intercooler it seems most people are being limited by the flow restriction of the stock turbines, not the compressor capability.
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

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    Lots of good information here.

    Looking forward to seeing quality results, hoprefully not negative though

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