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  1. #176
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Gotcha. You aren't interested in having a serious discussion about the nuances of pro football, so i'll depart this thread. If 400 yards = great game, it is what it is.
    I believe I mentioned 400 yards amid several other statistics which you are overlooking. Is it me or you that isn't interesting in a serious discussion?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    But understand there is so much more to quarterbacking than you are making it out to be. I was in Katy, TX last fall and watched their 5A team toss something like 600 or so yards passing on the opponent, would have to find the notes to be exact. The throws involved were elementary, the quarterback making the throws would not grade out for a D1A SEC team.
    Am I saying otherwise? How is this any different than my point there is more to a victory in a football game than just the QB?

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    Well if your argument has become football is a team sport, I'm not sure when I disagreed on that count. This argument began with a simple proposition that is ultimately an opinion "Tom Brady has had a superior career, and is a superior player to Peyton Manning". I can't say that as concrete fact, and you can't say the opposite as concrete fact (though you probably will).

    We have since run in circles, I have attempted to explain the subtleties of quarterback play, but you insist on brining up volume statistics and asinine statements like "Brady is in a steep decline". There is no one with a lick of football knowledge who could say that with a straight face. Would be no different than me saying "Peyton is obviously in a big decline, his arm talent is marginal". It's utterly false, flies in the face of the tape. So if you want to talk about "destroying" and "exposing" players, that's fine.


    Just curious, how many snaps did you watch Brady take this season (or any quarterback for that matter, on any level)? Maybe a hundred, two hundred? Did you go back and look at any of them from the 22 angle? Did you consider the down, distance, defense, time, weather, formation, hash mark,etc? I so strongly doubt it. Short of that, your opinion is based on a handful of television broadcasts.

    I would actually like to see Peyton go vertical on Sherman, ironically.
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  3. #178
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Did Peyton play well, and out play Brady in this particular game? Oh yea, no question. Brady was decent, nothing more. But was Peyton superb, did he make outstanding throws that exibited a high degree of difficulty? No. I've re-watched the game twice now (job related) and could show you a dozen cutups of very average ball placement and velocity. 80% of the route tree run by Broncos receivers consists of drags, slip screens, come back stick throws, and occasional deep sets off play action. They don't run the corner (well they tried and he missed twice due to an acute lack of arm talent), they can't really throw the fade, and outside the hashes they rarely throw the 0 (vert). Peyton played a sharp game and 100% deserves to be going to the Superbowl. Absolutely, positively no question.
    400 yards in todays game isn't that big of deal really, when you have QB's like Schaub and Stafford throwing for 500 yards in a game. The 400 yard stat was just thrown out when you said Peyton's game was marginal. 400 yards in the playoffs is more impressive though, as they let the DB's get away with more sh*t. His completion percentage is what stood out, he was 32/43.

    A Pats fan, of all people calling out Peyton for throwing short routes. Brady is "Mr. Dink and Dunk". He and Bill invented that sh*t.

  4. #179
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    1. Completion %, again as a standalone statistic means very little. Alex Smith cleared 70% last season, anyone who has watched serious KC film knows he is not accurate outside of a 15 yard box. Andrew Luck clipped about 60% this season, and it is clear as day to anyone watching that Luck is a more accurate passer of the football than Alex Smith.
    2. Agreed, 400 yards doesn't mean squat. A drop in the bucket.
    3. If I said Peyton played marginally, that is incorrect and I over-spoke. He played a good game, which I'm pretty sure is what I have readily stated from the minute the game wrapped. What I am contesting is the notion that he played an outstanding game- understand he didn't. That may be hard for you to accept, but it's true. He was good, nothing more. It's not hard for me to accept that Brady played marginally, because that is what the tape shows. Same goes for Peyton.
    4. First off, "dink and dunk" is a non-existant buzzword. Please expand on what you mean? The Broncos offense features an inordinate number of drag and rub concepts- NE certainly shows similar looks from trip sets. But fundamentally, it's not a vertically based attack. DEN has an absolute horse at the X, a damn good player at the flanker, and a physically fading but very, very good Y/split player in Welker. To a certain extent they are tailoring to their players-but Peyton's inability to drive the ball is beyond dispute. Has it hurt him? Obviously not this season, to this point. But it's on tape, not sure why some find this so hard to understand.

    Just being frank here, you guys need to spend more time re-watching the game, and less time stat counting. And not the TV copy, that's useless. Watching a game live, no one is getting remotely close to what is actually happening on the field.

    If you want to argue that Peyton is the superior player, you should really look back to 2004-06. Now that was some truly astounding play. If you genuinely think he's playing the best ball of his career right now, that's Sports Center level analysis.
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  5. #180
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    You mention rub routes or what defensive players called illegal pick routes. Tom and Bill perfected that a while ago.

    Yup, dink and dunk is the buzzword that is associated with Brady (rubs, quick slants, bubble screens, etc). You know the old Sportscenter favorite..."system quarterback". Funny you mention Welker, Brady used Welker basically the same way Peyton is using him now. Although Welker seemed to get more YAC when on the Pratiots.

    As far as Manning not being able to drive the ball, he can when he can step into his throws. He has lost some velocity, neck surgeries might have something to do with that. But he managed statistically one the best QB season's ever. So I am sure he isn't sweating it.

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    an incidental pick is not illegal- and you're right both NE and DEN are very sharp at using them. What Welker did yesterday was the opposite of incidental, his "route" was to incur contact with the corner who didn't go over the screen.

    Dink and Dunk is a term used by people who don't understand football. You can associate it with anything you'd like. Welker's YPC were below his standard, though it's a fair point that NE utilized him exclusively as a split end Y. DEN has chosen to stick him outside at the flanker every now and then, why I have no idea. So what's your point, that they don't use Welker as well? You didn't need to tell me that.

    If a quarterback can't drive the ball when he steps into a clean pocket, he doesn't belong in the NFL. Life in the NFL is throwing from a nasty, congested pocket. It's the number one trait to consider in terms of physical attributes- how does the player throw when the pocket is not clean. Great ex would be Luck at Stanford against 'SC 2 years ago, vs any Blaine Gabbert tape at Mizzou. Peyton cannot spin a good football, when it gets below freezing he cannot threaten vertically. It's not age, it's the lack of nerves in his neck. You think the grand total of 2 throws over 20 yards in the air Nov. game in NE was a coincidence?

    Yea "system quarterback" is a dumb phrase. Though in the collegiate ranks that can certainly be true with how laughable the level of competition is. Did we disagree on that? I don't remember i've been arguing for so long now hah.
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  7. #182
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    There is no one with a lick of football knowledge who could say that with a straight face.
    Hall of famers were just stating this today on ESPN. You have more knowledge than them too I suppose?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Would be no different than me saying "Peyton is obviously in a big decline, his arm talent is marginal". It's utterly false, flies in the face of the tape. So if you want to talk about "destroying" and "exposing" players, that's fine.
    He physically is in decline. Everyone ages including Brady. Peyton has compensated and evolved better than Brady.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Just curious, how many snaps did you watch Brady take this season (or any quarterback for that matter, on any level)? Maybe a hundred, two hundred? Did you go back and look at any of them from the 22 angle? Did you consider the down, distance, defense, time, weather, formation, hash mark,etc? I so strongly doubt it. Short of that, your opinion is based on a handful of television broadcasts.
    I doubt you watched more football than I did. The fact you have had to become a Brady apologist to defend his steep decline says enough.

    Manning is the better QB. He always was the better QB. Brady has fallen off. It's the reality of the situation.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    I would actually like to see Peyton go vertical on Sherman, ironically.
    See, this is the thing, who cares? Peyton is going to send the ball wherever it needs to go to win the game. If that includes going vertically on Sherman he will do it.

  8. #183
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    If you want to argue that Peyton is the superior player, you should really look back to 2004-06. Now that was some truly astounding play. If you genuinely think he's playing the best ball of his career right now, that's Sports Center level analysis.
    He's been a great QB for a long. There are moments from any season of his that are just astounding.

    He is playing right now at a level from the start of the season through the playoffs that is higher than any other point in his career. He has a lot of high points so it's hard to rank them but this is sustained elite level play that is incredible to witness.

  9. #184
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    As far as Manning not being able to drive the ball, he can when he can step into his throws
    He was hit on the play he is referencing. Many quarterbacks need to 'load up' to really throw the ball downfield.

    Of course Manning has lost velocity. He's 37. He proved quarterbacking isn't about who has the most velocity on the ball so who even cares?

  10. #185
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    You think the grand total of 2 throws over 20 yards in the air Nov. game in NE was a coincidence?
    How many of these do you think are the result of going up against a 3-4 defense that often plays zone against Manning?

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    @Sticky Scouting football is my job. You don't watch more professional football than I do. Unless you are the national director of a certain team's scouting department, in which case you absolutely watch more tape than I do. On that relative totem pole of knowledge, I am humbly very, very low. Which Hall of Famer noted Brady in "a steep decline"? Warren Sapp? There are NFL players all over the place who know a startlingly small amount about Football outside of their position. The Patriots haven't played base 34 with a classic 5 tech in about 3 or 4 seasons. Guess they came out in some base 34 looks against obvious ball control teams like CLE in '10 and BAL several times. They play roughly 60% of their snaps in some nickel look, which by definition pulls a 'backer off the field. Zone? NE played more man under outside than any team in the league this season. They do hold a single high much like SEA with Earl Thomas (McCourty has similar range), so that dissuades the deep ball. All that man against Manning hurt them this week, Dennard just wasn't up to the task against D. Thomas. Tough to fault him too much for that, Thomas is a monster outside. The few times they showed quarters looks and brought the house underneath, the Broncos O-line held up. They were fantastic, by the way.
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    PS Peyton won't beat the Seahawks with YAC. They tackle too well, and have too much range sideline to sideline. He'll have to go over the top. We'll see if he's up to the task, maybe he is. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, Trent Richardson was the 3rd highest grade i've given a back coming out Click here to enlarge
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  13. #188
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Yea "system quarterback" is a dumb phrase. Though in the collegiate ranks that can certainly be true with how laughable the level of competition is. Did we disagree on that? I don't remember i've been arguing for so long now hah.
    Don't think I was really arguing with you in the first place...lol. Only thing I didn't really agree with was the marginal comment.

    As far as the Manning vs Brady argument, that will go on for eternity.
    Last edited by BlackJetE90OC; 01-21-2014 at 02:17 AM.

  14. #189
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    @Sticky Scouting football is my job. You don't watch more professional football than I do. Unless you are the national director of a certain team's scouting department, in which case you absolutely watch more tape than I do. On that relative totem pole of knowledge, I am humbly very, very low. Which Hall of Famer noted Brady in "a steep decline"? Warren Sapp? There are NFL players all over the place who know a startlingly small amount about Football outside of their position. The Patriots haven't played base 34 with a classic 5 tech in about 3 or 4 seasons. Guess they came out in some base 34 looks against obvious ball control teams like CLE in '10 and BAL several times. They play roughly 60% of their snaps in some nickel look, which by definition pulls a 'backer off the field. Zone? NE played more man under outside than any team in the league this season. They do hold a single high much like SEA with Earl Thomas (McCourty has similar range), so that dissuades the deep ball. All that man against Manning hurt them this week, Dennard just wasn't up to the task against D. Thomas. Tough to fault him too much for that, Thomas is a monster outside. The few times they showed quarters looks and brought the house underneath, the Broncos O-line held up. They were fantastic, by the way.
    If it's your job then obviously. I do watch a ton of football.

    Guys on the NFL network, guys on ESPN, basically everything I had DVR'd today. He's in decline. How can you be a scout and not see it?

    NE when they blitz often does a zone blitz out of the 3-4 don't they? Of course they plan man too no team only uses zone or only uses man. Against Manning they used their safeties in zone against any deep threats so he took what he could. They also challenged the team to run.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    PS Peyton won't beat the Seahawks with YAC. They tackle too well, and have too much range sideline to sideline. He'll have to go over the top. We'll see if he's up to the task, maybe he is. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, Trent Richardson was the 3rd highest grade i've given a back coming out Click here to enlarge
    You predicted the Pats would win though didn't you?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlackJetE90OC Click here to enlarge
    As far as the Manning vs Brady argument, that will go on for eternity.
    If Manning gets this ring I think that debate is over.

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    I did say NE would get to the Superbowl. They made it to the AFC championship, so it’s not like my prediction was absolutely awful, was one game premature. Obviously, I was wrong. DEN played a clean game; absolutely they were the better team. I’m pretty sure I have ceded that to them from the start, at no point have I tried to discredit their win.

    RE: zone and blitzes. It’s complicated but your point on how they play the single deep safety is def correct, no arguing they play their center fielder as deep as any in football. Tough to do, but McCourty gives them rare range back there. NE isn’t much of a schemed blitz team (opposite end of the spectrum would be the Saints, who tee up all sorts of scripted pressure) to begin with, but when they do blitz they *generally* show man under from the corners. So if you think of the field vertically in thirds, they play the short (within 10 yards of LOS) portion quite aggressively, then things get more and more conservative on the back end. Against a player of Manning’s caliber, you run enormous risk if you try to disguise and get caught out of position. Could be critical against a gambler like Earl Thomas, at some point Peyton will try to get him to come up against an intermediate route, if he does he’ll have a shot to put the ball over the top. Actually the best play Peyton made all day was a “check with me” mid-way through the second to a run play, Joe Vellano had just come on the field for NE and he checked out of a poor look. Result was a 20-some yard run on 3rd and 10 featuring a hole that I could have run through. Now that’s outstanding quarterbacking, I can’t begrudge that.

    As to Brady being in a decline, it’s just my opinion. But it’s an opinion that is shared by the overwhelming majority of personnel people I’ve spoken with. Clearly I’ve been wrong before, player projection is hard and I’m no savant. But I can tell you in terms of physical attributes, there has been no tangible erosion of his physical skills. I see identical velocity on the deep third of his passes, identical functional mobility in the pocket, the mental side he’s always been near flawless. Now there are a few throws that he has always struggled with to a degree, and the fade is one of them (end of the half fade to Collie a good example). For whatever reason, he’s struggled most with the quick slip screen, why I have no idea. But every quarterback has a throw or two that they just don’t like making. Couldn’t tell you the last time I saw Peyton throw a clean 15 yard outbreaking route to the far hash- it’s a tough throw to make. Taken in full context of the team and talent around him, I did not see any decline in arm talent or ability from Brady this season. On Sunday he had one viable weapon in the passing game, when Austin Collie is your second tallest receiver (Slater is technically but he doesn’t even count) you are in a world of trouble.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Just wanted to say SEAHAWKS! Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Group.america Click here to enlarge
    Peyton to beat the super model..... I actually expect the Broncos to wipe the Belchicks big time by at least 13

    The coach grudge match will be a beauty and I am praying to see that sour faced, bad sport dh from 49ers (great coach BTW) lose again... just to see his FACE when losing AGAIN in the Championship.... will be too funny

    The Seattle SuperSportslosercitymobsters to win the Superbowl as it will be held on a cold dismal day in NJ........... and their DEFENSE is flipping awesome

    How you like DEM APPLES....... shame I dont bet on US sports... but I did lay Manchester United to NOT WIN the British Premier League at 11/4 early this season...... I am a genius...................... well except when I am not
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    <div style="background-color:#000000;width:368px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:arc:video:southparkstudios.com:f7ca451e-ed00-11e0-aca6-0026b9414f30" width="360" height="293" frameborder="0"></iframe></div></div>

    I cried watching this

    "Too bloody good" just like the Australian cricket team !!!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Nope. Tom's still the better player. I'll rewatch the 22 tape, but at first glance neither QB played all that well in this game. Peyton was certainly sharper, but he missed 4 or 5 stick throws that he normally makes with his eyes closed. He did eat up the quarters coverage NE went with after Talib went down, but that's par for the course for a player of his caliber.

    I do think he'll get his ring in 2 weeks though. So congrats to him- Broncos were no doubt the superior team today.

    Brady cannot win from behind when he has to make LONG THROWS... that has been shown time and again over the last 7 seasons..... if you want... look at the stats

    as for PEYTON - he was GREAT 95/10............. he held the ball when he needed to... passed when required... drew the clock down when he needed to... guy is a $#@!ing BIG GUN.. actually more of a NUCLEAR effing BOMB

    Still think SuperSeaDefenseHawks will win.... love that Sherman guy... better trash talker than the entire Aussie cricket team combined but he has the D talent to back it all up

    and thank the mighty lord that the dickhead Broncos coach let Peyton do what he wanted to do in that last 1/4 unlike last year when the coaching staff choked

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  23. #198
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    Yea if you think you will sway my opinion based on roughly 8 years of Brady tape with your “stats”, you are living in a fantasy world. Turn ESPN off and learn about the game using your eyes and brain.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Yea if you think you will sway my opinion based on roughly 8 years of Brady tape with your “stats”, you are living in a fantasy world. Turn ESPN off and learn about the game using your eyes and brain.
    I think you're in denial about Brady's decline and the Pats window closing.

  25. #200
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135pats Click here to enlarge
    Yea if you think you will sway my opinion based on roughly 8 years of Brady tape with your “stats”, you are living in a fantasy world. Turn ESPN off and learn about the game using your eyes and brain.

    Yes I did... I watch the games ...... even though I am not American... I watch all THE GAMES and I mean all the games every week... I have plenty of time ...... I watch over 350 NFL and 800 MLB games each year... plus the Premier League etc etc............ we can argue all day... I am RIGHT

    Brady and Belicheat play a high %, lower distance passing game then the other BIG NAME QBs (Peyton, Brees, Eli)........ but if you want............. please read the stats, you guy love stats... they are compelling...... watch the games...... keep crying... you lost.. that is the stat that matters but you were beaten by a better team on the day

    Brady is a great QB... I just THINK Peyton is BETTER... we agree to disagree... one of the joys of a blog
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