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  1. #26
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    Well in my opinion, the fact that Terry has been the first to tell us about this is a very important step in the tuner's concern for customers. How it is resolved should be less important than the information because Disputes are alwas messy.

    I also wanted to ask why shiv instantly attacks Terry (not even the JB3) any chance he gets, with full force and alot of marketing hype. Ive heard the same $#@! Time and time again and I know the dude can just help the community if he tried. Honesty there is 0 information on e90... People just hatin and fighting.

    So... Any details?
    Last edited by alq80; 10-06-2010 at 12:22 PM.
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    Current:
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    Previous:
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  2. #27
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    It seems to me like there are some things going on with the N54:

    1) People are too reliable on methanol for lack of fuel. Big mistake when pushing higher hp.

    2) Integrated methanol into a tune is a big mistake. A company needs to come out with a standalone methanol injection kit. This way, if the methanol fails, the tune won't be affected and go loopy. With a standalone control, you can make progressive maps based on boost, etc etc. Integrating methanol into a tune isn't the safest thing

    3) Maybe over in europe, they are less about 1/4 mile and more about 60 mph + runs. They push the motor hard, so this is what happens.

    4) There is no adequate spark plug replacement yet.

  3. #28
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    Some would call that marketing PR to set the tone for a creative mess. Very simple tactic Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alq80 Click here to enlarge
    Well in my opinion, the fact that Terry has been the first to tell us about this is a very important step in the tuner's concern for customers. How it is resolved should be less important than the information because Disputes are alwas messy.

    I also wanted to ask why shiv instantly attacks Terry (not even the JB3) any chance he gets, with full force and alot of marketing hype. Ive heard the same $#@! Time and time again and I know the dude can just help the community if he tried. Honesty there is 0 information on e90... People just hatin and fighting.

    So... Any details?

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Matt@Camber-Toe Click here to enlarge
    I think LM is just itching for more hp Click here to enlarge

    It sickens me to see the all out war that has erupted on the other forum as well as the attacks being made...makes me just want to get out of this business altogether...it makes you want to take a stand and say something but when you are small and insignificant, what can you do? Nothing....
    not that i want MORE i want to use what is readuliya available more easily/trouble free/safe ect..

    to my knowledge im the only one thats survived multiple 20-21psi sustained blasts, on Upped TT's, on either tune. maybe that because i have some safeties in place and make sure im 100% before going there?

    im sure if v4 users were doing this as regularly as jb users, some would have issues as well.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    not that i want MORE i want to use what is readuliya available more easily/trouble free/safe ect..

    to my knowledge im the only one thats survived multiple 20-21psi sustained blasts, on Upped TT's, on either tune. maybe that because i have some safeties in place and make sure im 100% before going there?

    im sure if v4 users were doing this as regularly as jb users, some would have issues as well.
    there is no need to thank me Lostmarine. i guess a lesson was learned after my failure ;-)
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    Using the word already in the title means that the kit is unreliable and has caused the engine failure
    Actually, it was meant to imply the motor blew already considering all the time they took to get to market. Additionally, there was discussion on the plugs and knock. It also was personally of interest due to being an S65 issue.

    By using a question mark, I didn't immediately condemn active but asked if they were responsible since we didn't really know. I wasn't going to make a statement one way or another but gather all the info and then see what happened.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    This is not a title for a site that claims to be totally neutral. If this thread was about a Vishnu tuned car I am sure it would be a similar title too. That's the point I am trying to make.
    We don't claim to be completely neutral but far more open. On the vendor guidelines page it says supporting vendors will have our support across the board. This includes the way the front page is handled, nothing new.

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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alq80 Click here to enlarge
    Well in my opinion, the fact that Terry has been the first to tell us about this is a very important step in the tuner's concern for customers.
    Exactly, no request to delete the information or hide it.

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  8. #33
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    All the fuss is over a broken ring land?
    Sorry to hear it happened, but detonation will break ring lands in very short order.
    I'm willing to bet that if logs are available they'll show more ignition advance than typical for the load conditions and minimal knock. Further investigation will probably show that something in the signal chain between the knock sensor and the DME is compromised. Probably not a broken signal line because that would trigger a limp mode - more likely a knock sensor fault, either mounting or effective signal attenuation.
    I don't mean to trivialize this event as I know it's a drag to damage an engine, but the fact that this doesn't happen more often is a huge tribute to DME fault detection reliability.
    With regrets,
    Dan

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GTR-Dad Click here to enlarge
    I'm willing to bet that if logs are available they'll show more ignition advance than typical for the load conditions and minimal knock.
    I'm willing to bet if that is the case we won't see logs... unless it is due to the failure of the knock sensor as you suggest.

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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm willing to bet if that is the case we won't see logs... unless it is due to the failure of the knock sensor as you suggest.
    Please don't hear me pointing fingers. I know a fair bit about tuning standalones, and secretly fear piggy backs because I don't fully understand what's going on. The scenario I described would come into play if the piggyback was relying on the DME to detect knock and pull timing to protect the engine. If the DME doesn't know about the knock, it won't pull timing...
    On the other hand, if the piggyback pulls timing based on its own map, then there shouldn't be any knock to detect, unless fueling leans out, IAT's climb, octane drops etc. At least these are fault conditions so exposure drops and the resulting risk is lower than if the the full time exposure that results if the DME is always pulling timing.
    d

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    there is no need to thank me Lostmarine. i guess a lesson was learned after my failure ;-)
    gotta remember, I had mine installed 1 day after you had yours, I just didnt post about it Click here to enlarge

  12. #37
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    It's a strange situation as the failure came up during a cold start and none of the knock codes one would expect to see if there was a serious knock event were present. But it turns out the meth failsafe was not being consistently used, allowing the tune to increase boost against the the full timing curve before methanol was flowing. Doing that a very high boost level, in this case 18+psi, seems likely to be the cause.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's a strange situation as the failure came up during a cold start and none of the knock codes one would expect to see if there was a serious knock event were present. But it turns out the meth failsafe was not being consistently used, allowing the tune to increase boost against the the full timing curve before methanol was flowing. Doing that a very high boost level, in this case 18+psi, seems likely to be the cause.
    Why wasn't the meth failsafe being consistently used?

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  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Why wasn't the meth failsafe being consistently used?
    Honestly I'm not sure. I believe the customer thought it was only to drop boost if meth stops flowing, and he would watch his meth gauge like a hawk. But what he didn't realize is that the failsafe also controls how boost is limited until meth is flowing and in the motor to prevent tip in knock. Also this customer modified his board with 12ohm resistors (very aggressive) and ran a very aggressive boost curve. It's possible it wasn't a failsafe issue and he simply didn't have enough octane with the meth to support the boost/timing curve. With the G3 board monitoring timing is a major pita requiring the BT to be running at the same time.

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    that the failsafe also controls how boost is limited until meth is flowing and in the motor to prevent tip in knock.
    Interesting, whose failsafe is this? Coolingmist?

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  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Interesting, whose failsafe is this? Coolingmist?
    CM meth/failsafe. The whole setup is sort of confusing to setup especially for ESLs so we're fixing that in the G4, as well as having the tune itself monitor for knock, etc.

  17. #42
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    Terry what's esl?

  18. #43
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    English as a Second Language?
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    Why is learning about these problems in a non confrontational manner so difficult to do. If you are on E-f'd up.com you will read through countless rants by a certain company extolling their might and wit in the n54 world. While they undoubtedly have a fantastic tune - their arrogance will undoubtedly redden their rear end when something happens to them such as this. Terry said it well that older engines should play it safe with regards to high boost. Many others have pointed out that pushing the car in sustained track conditions is also playing a scenario out that as far as I know, hasn't been well documented.

    In cases like these, it is unfortunate for sure for the people affected. I'm super sorry for Sevak and Enrico! Mercy should be on every tuner's mind. Statistically speaking - this will happen with A V4, or, a CPE. It is just a matter or time and unforeseen unfortunate circumstances. Will it mean that the v4 is crap - for sure not. Unfortunately, It's designer is just not foreseeing himself ever being on that side of things. So when it happens, I'm not sure much grace will be given.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Exactly, no request to delete the information or hide it.
    Yep, which is probably why we don't hear anything negative about ProCede related failures LOL. JK really, as this is erroneous without proof. I am skeptical though.

    Any tuning platform is going to have its share of failures, which happens naturally at some rate when performance is being pushed to the edge of reliability and even more so when not all users understand the risks, but have some control over the system. In addition, no amount of CPS offsetting/autotuning is going to save all of the few percent that are two standard deviations away from the mean, and are pushing for that last HP for the sake of fun/glory. I fall into the category of extreme risk taking and I take precautions, but the risk is always in the back of my mind. Sevak knew he was pushing the envelope as did Enrita. There is a reason why race engines are rebuilt after every race and often catastrophically fail during the race, no matter how well designed. The limits are being pushed toward or past the edge of engineering and therefore the failure rates are not known, but will be amplified. We are pushing an engine that was never intended to stand this kind of abuse without addressing the mehanical deficiencies. So, engine failures are going to occur, even if the tune is "perfect". My 25 cents.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    Why is learning about these problems in a non confrontational manner so difficult to do. If you are on E-f'd up.com you will read through countless rants by a certain company extolling their might and wit in the n54 world. While they undoubtedly have a fantastic tune - their arrogance will undoubtedly redden their rear end when something happens to them such as this. Terry said it well that older engines should play it safe with regards to high boost. Many others have pointed out that pushing the car in sustained track conditions is also playing a scenario out that as far as I know, hasn't been well documented.

    In cases like these, it is unfortunate for sure for the people affected. I'm super sorry for Sevak and Enrico! Mercy should be on every tuner's mind. Statistically speaking - this will happen with A V4, or, a CPE. It is just a matter or time and unforeseen unfortunate circumstances. Will it mean that the v4 is crap - for sure not. Unfortunately, It's designer is just not foreseeing himself ever being on that side of things. So when it happens, I'm not sure much grace will be given.

    Exactly. Of course statistics and logic are trumped by group-think every time.

  22. #47
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    I think most of you realize that the N54 engine has limits. I dont know exactly where it is, but it seems those of you pushing 19-20 psi are hitting those limits. when you push your car beyond its known aggressive limit (17-18 psi) you have to be prepared to lose your engine.

    I feel bad the user lost his engine like the rest of us. I posted a question on the other forum but have not seen a response. Some answers to the following questions would greatly help. No meth kit could ever cause an engine to blow up in the way this customers did, however for the future, its important to learn if the customer had setup the meth kit different with larger nozzles or so forth would that have saved the engine?


    1) What size injector was the user using? His kit was ordered with a m5 and M8, so unless he upgraded his nozzle later, the largest he was running was M8.

    2) its unclear if the failsafe was setup.....?
    3) what concentration of water/meth was the user using? Nothing prevents detonation better than water. Running SOME water is superior to running 100% methanol for detonation protection. This debate will go on and on, but I know this to be a 100% iron clad fact.
    4) where was the max dial on the controller?

    Those 4 quesions would be great to know.

    CM
    Last edited by coolingmist; 10-07-2010 at 09:31 AM.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by coolingmist Click here to enlarge
    1) What size injector was the user using? His kit was ordered with a m5 and M8, so unless he upgraded his nozzle later, the largest he was running was M8.

    2) its unclear if the failsafe was setup.....?
    3) what concentration of water/meth was the user using? Nothing prevents detonation better than water. Running SOME water is superior to running 100% methanol for detonation protection. This debate will go on and on, but I know this to be a 100% iron clad fact.
    4) where was the max dial on the controller?

    Those 4 quesions would be great to know.
    Why don't we have answers to these?

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  24. #49
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    +100 on running some water in your mix...you might sacrifice a bit of power but gain considerably on the safety side
    Click here to enlarge

  25. #50
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    I just posted on the N54 tech and I will mention here. I am sympathetic to the user that lost his engine and as far as the meth kit porition, if the meth kit failed and the failsafe was setup the engine would not have likely blown as map would have switched. If he blew up due to a lean condition you can be pretty sure he needed more fluid, in this case the failsafe would not help. Remember the failsafe setup is important. You are telling the controller how much you SHOULD be flowing once you reach your boost threshold. If you set your minimum flow to 250 cc/m and you needed 500 cc/m at that point, the failsafe will not switch maps. Proper setup is critical regardless of what we determine caused this customers failure.

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