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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    Brandon Jacobs' car redlines above 8k, http://gtr.alphaperformance.com/alph...pha-9-r35-gt-r and I've seen a vid of him beating a vt2-650 ess car in the owner's words, "easily"
    I don't doubt it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't doubt it.
    The fully built Alpha Omega which is bored out to 4 litres has a redline of 9,500rpm and can use it cause the heads flow very well. That's why they can use turbo's like gt35's(possibly bigger to reach 1700awhp) without nitrous to help spooling like you have to do with big turbo 2jzgte's.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SpeedLimit? Click here to enlarge
    The fully built Alpha Omega which is bored out to 4 litres has a redline of 9,500rpm and can use it cause the heads flow very well. That's why they can use turbo's like gt35's(possibly bigger to reach 1700awhp) without nitrous to help spooling like you have to do with big turbo 2jzgte's.
    Once you eventually start approaching the limit you need to look at other areas. Displacement, redline, etc. The S65 will eventually reach a limit and need to do the same.

    The thing is it does have an advantage in these areas from the factory. The GTR has an advantage in already having the turbos on there. The M3 is lighter, the GTR has all wheel drive, etc. Both can be devastating but the M3 isn't receiving the same attention once again.

    Regardless, the S65 due to certain advantages can be quite strong. Hopefully we'll see what the turbos do on it soon. I'd like to see some 1500+ hp M3's.

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    Been MIA for a while.

    In alll honesty, with bias aside, for an M3 to beat a FBO/E85 GTR from a dig would require more hp/tq/tire/suspension then anyone has yet to throw down. There are quite a few 9 sec stock turbo, stock tranny, stock clutch GTR's now at sea level. FBO with an aggressive E85 tune will push these cars to 10 flat or faster. IIRC the fastest M3 to date is an ESS 650 which click off a 10.5 i believe? It's just hard to compare a GTR to an M3 because the starting platforms are just 2 completely different focus points. Moddified, it's all a money game, but even then the fastest E9x M3's are still slower then bolt on tune gtr's. Let's not even touch handling/brakes etc... They both shine in their perspective areas, and both have strengths and weaknesses. The GTR is just a much better platform from a strictly performance point of view. I think My M3 would need another 100hp to be competitive with my GTR right now with how she sits (from a roll, nothing will help it from a dig) That 100hp would = a built engine, different clutches, larger blower, upgraded fuel system. This is the main reason why I stopped with my M3 and went into a GTR. I knew for as fast as I wanted to go, and to do so reliably, the GTR was such a better platform to start with and would cost less $$ in the long run. The M tax is alot worse then the GTR tax as well.... To get the GTR to 700crank HP (600hp/700tq wheels) cost me under 8k.... To get the M3 to 700 (613/394tq wheel) cost me more then three times that...
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  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Once you eventually start approaching the limit you need to look at other areas. Displacement, redline, etc. The S65 will eventually reach a limit and need to do the same.

    The thing is it does have an advantage in these areas from the factory. The GTR has an advantage in already having the turbos on there. The M3 is lighter, the GTR has all wheel drive, etc. Both can be devastating but the M3 isn't receiving the same attention once again.

    Regardless, the S65 due to certain advantages can be quite strong. Hopefully we'll see what the turbos do on it soon. I'd like to see some 1500+ hp M3's.
    I'm not really getting where you think the S65 is such a superior motor? How so? They are virtually the same size, just 6 cylinders versus 8, 6 larger cylinders on a stronger motor will take a better beating, it's been proved time and time again in the diesel world with the cummins, it's not all about cylinders....3.8 versus 4.0, and GTR's when built are usually built to 4.0, redline over 8krpm, hit power and torque earlier, are more aerodynamic, better traction, the list goes on, and what testing do you have to show the S65 flows better in the top-end than the VR38? I'm not saying it doesn't, just asking if you have the testing. I just can't find one thing the M3 would have an edge on over the GTR, 150lbs maybe? That's really not much, especially considering AWD and aero advantage
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I'm not really getting where you think the S65 is such a superior motor? How so? They are virtually the same size, just 6 cylinders versus 8, 6 larger cylinders on a stronger motor will take a better beating, it's been proved time and time again in the diesel world with the cummins, it's not all about cylinders....3.8 versus 4.0, and GTR's when built are usually built to 4.0, redline over 8krpm, hit power and torque earlier, are more aerodynamic, better traction, the list goes on, and what testing do you have to show the S65 flows better in the top-end than the VR38? I'm not saying it doesn't, just asking if you have the testing. I just can't find one thing the M3 would have an edge on over the GTR, 150lbs maybe? That's really not much, especially considering AWD and aero advantage
    Ego issues here my friend.. get it? Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I'm not really getting where you think the S65 is such a superior motor? How so? They are virtually the same size, just 6 cylinders versus 8, 6 larger cylinders on a stronger motor will take a better beating, it's been proved time and time again in the diesel world with the cummins, it's not all about cylinders....3.8 versus 4.0, and GTR's when built are usually built to 4.0, redline over 8krpm, hit power and torque earlier, are more aerodynamic, better traction, the list goes on, and what testing do you have to show the S65 flows better in the top-end than the VR38? I'm not saying it doesn't, just asking if you have the testing. I just can't find one thing the M3 would have an edge on over the GTR, 150lbs maybe? That's really not much, especially considering AWD and aero advantage
    EXACTLY ! Believe me a S65 is not flowing better than a fully built top end VR38

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlownE92M3 Click here to enlarge
    Moddified, it's all a money game, but even then the fastest E9x M3's are still slower then bolt on tune gtr's.
    Not true.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlownE92M3 Click here to enlarge
    I knew for as fast as I wanted to go, and to do so reliably, the GTR was such a better platform to start with and would cost less $$ in the long run. The M tax is alot worse then the GTR tax as well....
    This is valid and the difference between starting with a motor prepped for forced induction and one that is not. The M3 is not cheap to play with on a higher level (ask me how I know) but it's also rewarding and very capable. We haven't seen the best yet as that is still to come.

  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    EXACTLY ! Believe me a S65 is not flowing better than a fully built top end VR38
    What do you know about how the S65 heads flow? The S65 is flowing better than any V8 motor I can think of from the factory short of maybe the 430 Scuderia.

    What will a fully built S65 head do? Get worse?

  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I'm not really getting where you think the S65 is such a superior motor? How so? They are virtually the same size, just 6 cylinders versus 8, 6 larger cylinders on a stronger motor will take a better beating, it's been proved time and time again in the diesel world with the cummins, it's not all about cylinders....3.8 versus 4.0, and GTR's when built are usually built to 4.0, redline over 8krpm, hit power and torque earlier, are more aerodynamic, better traction, the list goes on, and what testing do you have to show the S65 flows better in the top-end than the VR38? I'm not saying it doesn't, just asking if you have the testing. I just can't find one thing the M3 would have an edge on over the GTR, 150lbs maybe? That's really not much, especially considering AWD and aero advantage
    They are close in size but as we have seen the M3's stroke allows it to go quite a bit further in displacement if it needs to. It also does have two more cylinders.

    Why exactly can't you build a 4.7 liter S65 revving to 9k+? BMW built one to 4.4 themselves revving to 8400.

    I don't know what you're talking about regarding more aerodynamic as splitting hairs depending on who is using what spoiler which changes drag doesn't mean much of anything especially considering the M3 has less frontal area. The weight is the more important factor here.

    You can tell the S65 flows better as it has to from the very beginning to make over 100 hp per liter at over 8000 rpm without the aid of forced induction. Take the turbos off the GTR and what is it putting out?

    150 pounds? It's closer to 400 pounds.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dixchen Click here to enlarge
    Ego issues here my friend.. get it? Click here to enlarge
    It has everything to do with the design of the motor and nothing to do with ego. BMW M motors are the most awarded in history. Don't even take my word for it they build better motors than Nissan.

    This GTR hype is getting so absurd. I'll take it upon myself I guess to show yet again people are playing too much Gran Turismo and racing on paper.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What do you know about how the S65 heads flow? The S65 is flowing better than any V8 motor I can think of from the factory short of maybe the 430 Scuderia.

    What will a fully built S65 head do? Get worse?
    Not many people really know much about the s65 heads except for companies like VAC that build full out race engines and have these things on flow bench. But what i do know is a fully built alpha GTR head that is revving out 9,500 rpm and putting out over 1700 AWHP is flowing a hell of a lot better than any S65 head out there. Again not much if anything can touch fully built GTR's so don't take offense or let ego take over. You should be gunning for other high hp RWD cars like i mentioned before weistecs clk and big blower vettes/stangs/camaros. Doesn't change that you have one bad ass car its just not the platform to go head to head with the GTR's

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Not many people really know much about the s65 heads except for companies like VAC that build full out race engines and have these things on flow bench.
    Actually guys have had the S65 heads flow benched back in the day. You weren't around for the early part of the S65 modding scene (I was, not putting you down simply stating a fact) and most companies that looked into it stated the heads were some of the best they have seen from a production motor. As in, it was going to take some cash to improve them. Go ahead and ask VAC if you like.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    But what i do know is a fully built alpha GTR head that is revving out 9,500 rpm and putting out over 1700 AWHP is flowing a hell of a lot better than any S65 head out there.
    You admit the heads the GTR comes with are inferior though right? And if an S65 head gets the same attention then what? So you start with heads designed to flow better and a valvetrain designed to rev higher to begin with. A top end that has seen 10k+ rpm in actual real racing.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Again not much if anything can touch fully built GTR's so don't take offense or let ego take over.
    I'm not taking offense I'm pointing out if you actually go for pure power potential the S65 will always win. It can have more displacement and it can rev higher with an extra two cylinders. The GTR is left chasing these aspects as it is designed it is behind in these areas.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    You should be gunning for other high hp RWD cars like i mentioned before weistecs clk and big blower vettes/stangs/camaros. Doesn't change that you have one bad ass car its just not the platform to go head to head with the GTR's
    I'll go head to head with whatever I want and maybe I'll switch to turbos simply to prove my point because I can. How many GTR's am I really going to have to worry about? The top examples with the most money invested? That shows the M3 to be pretty strong I think.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They are close in size but as we have seen the M3's stroke allows it to go quite a bit further in displacement if it needs to. It also does have two more cylinders.

    Why exactly can't you build a 4.7 liter S65 revving to 9k+? BMW built one to 4.4 themselves revving to 8400.

    I don't know what you're talking about regarding more aerodynamic as splitting hairs depending on who is using what spoiler which changes drag doesn't mean much of anything especially considering the M3 has less frontal area. The weight is the more important factor here.

    You can tell the S65 flows better as it has to from the very beginning to make over 100 hp per liter at over 8000 rpm without the aid of forced induction. Take the turbos off the GTR and what is it putting out?

    150 pounds? It's closer to 400 pounds.
    Motor-trend's long-term car weighed in at 3887, Nissan claims 3825. M3 weighs ~3726? So I guess you're right, depending on options it could be 160 lbs.

    And how many people have stroked the S65? And how many have been successful out there running? You're reaching so far it's just sad.

    And who uses the S65 for racing? Maybe a couple BMW sponsored road course cars...that's it. And they're not pushing big power with forced induction. You are pushing the E9x M3 platform the furthest and we've only seen one event appearance with results, and you're maybe where a FBO full e85 GTR is at? Come on, no one is dis-crediting your car, you just need to pick on cars in your own league.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    M3 weighs ~3726? So I guess you're right, depending on options it could be 160 lbs.
    This is what the M3 weighs: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...weight-is-35XX

    So what is the actual difference?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    And how many people have stroked the S65? And how many have been successful out there running? You're reaching so far it's just sad.
    Wut? LOL. BMW themselves stroked the motor to 4.4 liters. BMW themselves races a 4.4 liter. Stroker cranks are available from several manufacturers. How am I reaching exactly? It seems you just don't know your stuff and instead just want to hump the GTR's leg all day.

    You would already know the answer to the question of stroke if you just looked at the bore x stroke of the S65: 92mm x 75.2mm

    That results in a piston speed of what? That leaves you room to increase it to what? It is so low why? Now compare it to the GTR and tell me which motor was designed to rev higher.

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    They are really not in the same league at all. All your explanations are theoretical and will most likely never happen the fastest M3 is in the mid 10's. Tune only GTR's have gone faster so that should tell you everything. Lets be real here turbos or not the e92 has no chance just look at turbo e46 m3's even with there 1K+ hp they have no chance. Nobody is leg humping the GTR if i wanted one id have it but obviously chose something else because my peepee isnt so small i need to have the fastest car in the world. Just respect it for what it is to much ego around here

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    Sticky the two motors couldn't be any more different. The S65 is a killer motor for a badass NA setup but it lags way behind in terms of max hp potential. I have seen both blocks bare and there is no comparison. The VR was built for FI from the factory and has MUCH thicker cylinder walls, bigger head studs, stronger main support, more webbing and bridging both in the valley and on the sides. All that equals a much stronger block as the S65was designed as a light weight short stroke NA motor. All so I'm sure if anyone would have it it would be you so can you post a flow sheet for the S65 heads? We can see how they compare to the VR heads but also remember that head flow isnt as critical on a FI car. Biggest VR I have seen is 4.5 but there is now a crank big enough to go 4.7L.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    This is what the M3 weighs: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...weight-is-35XX

    So what is the actual difference?



    Wut? LOL. BMW themselves stroked the motor to 4.4 liters. BMW themselves races a 4.4 liter. Stroker cranks are available from several manufacturers. How am I reaching exactly? It seems you just don't know your stuff and instead just want to hump the GTR's leg all day.

    You would already know the answer to the question of stroke if you just looked at the bore x stroke of the S65: 92mm x 75.2mm

    That results in a piston speed of what? That leaves you room to increase it to what? It is so low why? Now compare it to the GTR and tell me which motor was designed to rev higher.
    Ok, 300lbs...whatever, still not 450 which you claimed. Yes, as I had already stated, which you seemed to have wanted to delete from your quote, BESIDES BMW and BMW race team, who isn't pushing big FI power on the S65 and only stroked to run what 500-550hp? who is running a high horsepower stroked S65 on the street with success? Success meaning a good sized power gain from it. Last I checked the norm on the M3 is still to spend ~$20k for ~600whp...Gosh, so glad BMW could re-build and stroke their own motor for a race team, that completely changes my mind about the motor...sometimes you act so blind it's crazy. Ford builds racing motors too, but I don't see mustangs running with GTR's either....so what does your weak ass argument mean? Nothing...why can't you just admit the M3 is not on the same playing level?
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    Oh yes, lets not forget a motor is a motor, they can all be either bored or stroked, it's just metal, that doesn't mean it will actually yield any results.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Not true.
    In terms of 1/4 performance, I believe it is. Stock turbo, tranny, block, drivetrain GTR's have ran into the mid-high 9's in the high 130's to low 140's with just bolt ons, E85 and an aggressive tune. If I recall (please do correct me if i'm wrong) the fastest M3 to date (e9x chassis) is running a mid 10 right? I do feel a ESS 700 (or any equivalent blower kit from AA, Gin etc.) can give a FBO/E85 gtr a good run from a roll at sea level, but 1/4 mile, I don't see any M3 coming close to a 9. I would be willing to bet your's would though once the tranny/clutches are good to go. Outside of your personal M3, I don't know of any other E9x chassis M's that can touch a FBO/E85 GTR at the drag strip. I do feel M3's fair much better from a roll, but even then It would take more then most M3's have to even stay doors with it. I retuned yesterday and managed 638hp/718tq out of the GTR. I'm gonna put some 105 octane in the M3 this week before i tear her down to stock and line her up with my GTR again. This time from a 40,50 and 60 roll to 130 to see how well she does and post results. I'm not gonna bother with a dig race, because we all know how that will end lol.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Jimefam Click here to enlarge
    Sticky the two motors couldn't be any more different. The S65 is a killer motor for a badass NA setup but it lags way behind in terms of max hp potential. I have seen both blocks bare and there is no comparison. The VR was built for FI from the factory and has MUCH thicker cylinder walls, bigger head studs, stronger main support, more webbing and bridging both in the valley and on the sides. All that equals a much stronger block as the S65was designed as a light weight short stroke NA motor. All so I'm sure if anyone would have it it would be you so can you post a flow sheet for the S65 heads? We can see how they compare to the VR heads but also remember that head flow isnt as critical on a FI car. Biggest VR I have seen is 4.5 but there is now a crank big enough to go 4.7L.
    It doesn't lag behind in max HP potential it's ahead in max HP potential and always will be. This is strictly a paper debate a this point but they are both going to be close theoretically with the edge going to the S65. Honestly, just take an S85 then and you can essentially do what UGR does with the Gallardo. That should be the model right there on theoretical potential.

    Yes, you're right, the VR block is nice. I like it, definitely. It does have thicker cylinder walls and the points you mentioned. It's prepped from the factory way better for big torque.

    The S65 was designed to be lightweight and rev higher. So, if you prep the block for forced induction and not for the roadcourse why exactly won't you make big power? It will not need as much torque to make as much power. If you have equal torque in both cars but the M3 has it at 8400 rpm, it will always have more power potential.

    I can go look for the S65 head info but I really don't feel like scouring forums I don't even post on any longer.

    Head flow isn't as critical as NA maybe but you still want the best heads you possibly can have. You can't just keep cranking boost and increasing heat forever.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Ok, 300lbs...whatever, still not 450 which you claimed. Yes, as I had already stated, which you seemed to have wanted to delete from your quote, BESIDES BMW and BMW race team, who isn't pushing big FI power on the S65 and only stroked to run what 500-550hp? who is running a high horsepower stroked S65 on the street with success? Success meaning a good sized power gain from it. Last I checked the norm on the M3 is still to spend ~$20k for ~600whp...Gosh, so glad BMW could re-build and stroke their own motor for a race team, that completely changes my mind about the motor...sometimes you act so blind it's crazy. Ford builds racing motors too, but I don't see mustangs running with GTR's either....so what does your weak ass argument mean? Nothing...why can't you just admit the M3 is not on the same playing level?
    I didn't type 450. I mean are you not even reading what is written? I said the difference is closer to 400 pounds and it certainly is closer to that than what you claimed without even knowing the numbers. Delete what now?

    Most people who build stroker motors are doing road racing so naturally they increase displacement because they are naturally aspirated. The boosted cars on the street are for the most part stock motor cars. BMW does not sell a 4.4 liter S65 in the United States so you would have to have people build their motors. Am I somehow responsible for people doing that with their cars? The point is plenty of S65's exist at 4.4 liters that are run HARD at 4.4 liters thereby showing you there is plenty of room to increase the displacement if BMW themselves is even doing it. Sorry you were unaware of this fact and that they also did it for a street car and not just racing. Don't talk to me when you don't know your stuff you're wasting my time with me having to tutor you.

    You don't see Mustangs running with GTR's? Oh that's because Ford GT's are not just running with them but crushing them. WTF are you talking about? Get off the GTR's nuts already this blind leg humping is sad.

    I'm not going to admit anything regarding the M3. Just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. You're undervaluing the M3 and its potential.

  23. #98
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Oh yes, lets not forget a motor is a motor, they can all be either bored or stroked, it's just metal, that doesn't mean it will actually yield any results.
    Absurd statement.

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    Honestly, at the end of the day, anything can be made fast, if the finances are available and you're willing to spend them. We have 7 sec hondas now days to show this. Both cars are great platforms, but one serves a different purpose. Both and pro's and con's. Both are enjoyable for what they are designed for. End of the day comes down to personal preference and budget.
    -08 E92 Brushed Steel DCT 613hp-
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    -2012 Brushed Red Aluminum GTR-
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    - 1060hp 852tq 32psi - 9.34 @150mph 7688ft DA - 185.5mph 1/2 mile 9240ft DA -
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BlownE92M3 Click here to enlarge
    In terms of 1/4 performance, I believe it is. Stock turbo, tranny, block, drivetrain GTR's have ran into the mid-high 9's in the high 130's to low 140's with just bolt ons, E85 and an aggressive tune. If I recall (please do correct me if i'm wrong) the fastest M3 to date (e9x chassis) is running a mid 10 right? I do feel a ESS 700 (or any equivalent blower kit from AA, Gin etc.) can give a FBO/E85 gtr a good run from a roll at sea level, but 1/4 mile, I don't see any M3 coming close to a 9. I would be willing to bet your's would though once the tranny/clutches are good to go. Outside of your personal M3, I don't know of any other E9x chassis M's that can touch a FBO/E85 GTR at the drag strip. I do feel M3's fair much better from a roll, but even then It would take more then most M3's have to even stay doors with it. I retuned yesterday and managed 638hp/718tq out of the GTR. I'm gonna put some 105 octane in the M3 this week before i tear her down to stock and line her up with my GTR again. This time from a 40,50 and 60 roll to 130 to see how well she does and post results. I'm not gonna bother with a dig race, because we all know how that will end lol.
    You going based on elapsed time? Who cares? Trap speed, trap speed, trap speed.

    Ok, the M3's you are referencing are all stock internal cars. They are internally limited. Why exactly would my car be losing to a bolt on GTR? My car already ran faster than many bolt on GTR's at Shift-Sector didn't it? So...?

    I love the GTR's potential. Don't get me wrong, I think your car is great. But I'm sick and tired of people discounting the M3. That's the main reason I have stuck with my car simply to show people what this thing can do. It's going to be mean as $#@! and rip bolt on GTR's a new $#@! and as well as some of the more serious cars as well. They are both great cars it's just a shame we can count people pushing the E92 M3 on one hand.

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