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  1. #76
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Yeah they work off a pressure ratio. That pressure ratio is also related to velocity and mass flow rather than plain volume though IIRC, but since the A/R is set on a turbo the pressure ratio can in essence dictate a compressor mass flow rate, and you can calculate the efficiency of that mass flow at certain outlet pressure, again IIRC. A post from Rob Beck or Tony would be cool for turbo theory and pressure ratio's vs mass flow and such, I'm not really an expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn express last night.

    How I love some of the questions you bring up.
    You all talking some smarty stuff with terms I have to define. I can understand the density and temp thing... but random atom energies translating to the intake charge velocity is over my head. This would mean the engine VE can change with temp and hotter air is better for this reason. But if turbo works off PR (volume flow) then lower temps are better. Which is it, or is there a happy medium considering mass flow (not engine tuning)... both sides are too smart for me.

    i have too many questions... these days they are cryptocurrency related though (not as fun as cars).

  2. #77
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    Oh no no sorry, I'm too literal sometimes. VE is all about how much air you can cram into/out of the engine. Density of air is one part yes a big part... but if you can increase the velocity, you can get the same amount in per time. There's of course other concerns... but anyway...

    What I mean is yes they rate in terms of pressure ratios for the turbine only I think, as exhaust moves past. So pre turbine pressure vs after turbo pressure. In a given restriction (the AR ratios) this should produce x force on the turbine (Hotter gas is good here, more pressure, more energy in general for the turbo to recycle). But technically I think it's still related to a mass flow, mostly since the volume in a steel pipe is constant, if that makes sense.

    And then the compressor maps are rated in lbs or cfm vs pressure... so you'd calculate how much airflow (mass flow) your engine sucks, determine its restriction at that number (how much psi it will take to get that flow), and you'll see the compressor efficiency.

    I think that's right. But right now my mind is all about head and neck anatomy.

  3. #78
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fun2drive Click here to enlarge
    The only real way to understand this is to model it using computational fluid dynamics. Theory and practice are two different things.
    However I appreciate the data posted by Mosselman and Wagner. I know Mosselman they are a good European company that has produced a lot of tuner products mainly Europe only over the years. I have a Wagner FMIC and mine uses stock connections. Whatever produces more power is all that counts to me with my Cobb tuner.
    One company shows one thing in the data another shows another thing. Having done test for 30 years I am certain of one thing, you tell me the results you want and I can assure you my testing will provide them. Independent testing with no company bias is the only honest way to get the data.
    Fun discussion however...
    Spot on. In my experience doing engineering as well 9/10 it can be taken in either direction.
    Last edited by rudypoochris; 12-13-2013 at 02:06 AM.

  4. #79
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by turbodan Click here to enlarge
    I'm still amazed nobody has made a air to water cooler. For what some of these a/a coolers are expensive enough that you could put together an a/w kit fairly easy with some time spent.
    Air to water is inferior in many regards than air to air. Air water is good for packaging on rear/mid engined cars or roots comps, dragsters and when you need best boost response. Everything else it blows.

  5. #80
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Air to water is inferior in many regards than air to air. Air water is good for packaging on rear/mid engined cars or roots comps, dragsters and when you need best boost response. Everything else it blows.
    Um it also cools way better.

  6. #81
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    You all talking some smarty stuff with terms I have to define. I can understand the density and temp thing... but random atom energies translating to the intake charge velocity is over my head. This would mean the engine VE can change with temp and hotter air is better for this reason. But if turbo works off PR (volume flow) then lower temps are better. Which is it, or is there a happy medium considering mass flow (not engine tuning)... both sides are too smart for me.

    i have too many questions... these days they are cryptocurrency related though (not as fun as cars).
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

  7. #82
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Um it also cools way better.
    Well that was my point, not always. The use cases for air water beings better than air air I listed above.

  8. #83
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    $#@!ing Trailer Park Boys! I just saw them on Monday. They are currently doing a Christmas tour. Unbelievably funny.
    Eppur si muove.

  9. #84
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    $#@!ing Trailer Park Boys! I just saw them on Monday. They are currently doing a Christmas tour. Unbelievably funny.
    Serious!? The better be coming to Boston. $#@! me they are playing tonight and I have my company xmass party. god dammit.
    E92 Bren Tune / E90 PTF Tune / E70 Twin Turbo Diesel JBD

    Got Boost?

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  10. #85
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Serious!? The better be coming to Boston. $#@! me they are playing tonight and I have my company xmass party. god dammit.
    I know they toured last year too so hopefully that means they'll be around next year as well. They said season 8 is coming out in the spring.

    My friends drove up to Canada to see them couple years ago, and the boarder guard was giving them $#@! about who they were and where they were going. My friend then told him they were going to see TPB and the guy was instantly cool with them.

    Randy is just as fat and disgusting in person as he is on camera, BTW.
    Eppur si muove.

  11. #86
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    I know they toured last year too so hopefully that means they'll be around next year as well. They said season 8 is coming out in the spring.

    My friends drove up to Canada to see them couple years ago, and the boarder guard was giving them $#@! about who they were and where they were going. My friend then told him they were going to see TPB and the guy was instantly cool with them.

    Randy is just as fat and disgusting in person as he is on camera, BTW.

    That is awesome about the border guard! I thought that they were making another movie not a season. A season is much better. I gotta get back into checking out swearnet and staying on top of what the boys are doing.
    E92 Bren Tune / E90 PTF Tune / E70 Twin Turbo Diesel JBD

    Got Boost?

    Click here to enlarge

  12. #87
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Well that was my point, not always. The use cases for air water beings better than air air I listed above.
    What?

    Water always moves more heat than air. Always.

    BMW is going to water air on the new M cars. That should tell you something.

  13. #88
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What?

    Water always moves more heat than air. Always.

    BMW is going to water air on the new M cars. That should tell you something.
    Sure but then the water temperature matters. The water is cooled by air...

    BMW is moving away from performance on every line. That should tell you something.

  14. #89
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Sure but then the water temperature matters. The water is cooled by air...
    Yeah and? So it is more susceptible to heat soak unless you have adequate radiators but who cares if you are limping on air/air? Aren't engines cooled by water too?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    BMW is moving away from performance on every line. That should tell you something.
    What it tells me if you don't understand the advantages of water/air. The new M3 is a higher performance car than anything BMW has done with a turbo inline-6 that is air/air.

  15. #90
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    I ran a water-air intercooler on my twin-screwed '99 M Coupe. It was quite efficient and in a smaller package, but it added a fair amount of complexity and, with that, failure points. Electrical pump, hoses, etc. Air-to-air is dumb simple and relatively inexpensive. In my book, this is good.

    Neil

  16. #91
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    Air to air is cheaper and easier. This is the main reason you see it. Plus people like the look of FMIC's so the ricer crowd digs it.

    Water / air will always be able to cool more because physics so there.

  17. #92
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    Air to water is much more efficient at heat transfer, so (lol I'm gonna keep with my theme in this thread) you can use a core with less restriction/pressure drop and achieve the same cooling as air to air. Honestly, air to water is so much more efficient that sometimes you'll get the same iat with a hotter core.

    But yes in the end much more susceptible to heatsoak if not designed well, but so are air to air. And more complex, more expensive, but much better for drag and street stuff imo.

  18. #93
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    You could probably put a kit together for 1,500 or so.
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    That is awesome about the border guard! I thought that they were making another movie not a season. A season is much better. I gotta get back into checking out swearnet and staying on top of what the boys are doing.
    They already made another movie, just hasn't come out yet. PLUS, they're coming out with a new season! I don't know there real names but Ricky, Julian and Bubbles bought the rights of the show from the original writer/creater. I can't wait!

  20. #95
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    realisticly a normal person driving a car throttleing up every once in a while you'll never heatsoak an a/w cooler. the benefits of being able to ice the water and get below ambient air performance wise will always trump an a/a cooler.
    A common misconception about a/a coolers is that you get ambient air temps while driving. This just isn't true. The cooler is getting air from right above the pavement which in the summer is much much hotter than ambient air. Add heat soak into the mix and that a/a cooler isn't doing half of what you think it is.

  21. #96
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Air to water is much more efficient at heat transfer, so (lol I'm gonna keep with my theme in this thread) you can use a core with less restriction/pressure drop and achieve the same cooling as air to air. Honestly, air to water is so much more efficient that sometimes you'll get the same iat with a hotter core.

    But yes in the end much more susceptible to heatsoak if not designed well, but so are air to air. And more complex, more expensive, but much better for drag and street stuff imo.
    Yeah, but it isn't air water. The systems are:

    Air:Air

    Or

    Air: Water to Water:Air

    The former is more efficient.

    Air to air direct is going to get you cooler temps the majority of the time except for the cases I listed a bunch of posts back...

  22. #97
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, but it isn't air water. The systems are:

    Air:Air

    Or

    Air: Water to Water:Air

    The former is more efficient.

    Air to air direct is going to get you cooler temps the majority of the time except for the cases I listed a bunch of posts back...
    Wut?

  23. #98
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    [QUOTE=rudypoochris;526269]Yeah, but it isn't air water. The systems are:

    Air:Air

    Or

    Air: Water to Water:Air

    The former is more efficient.

    Air to air direct is going to get you cooler temps the majority of the time except for the cases I listed a bunch of posts back...[/QUOTE/]

    ummm no. An aw cooler will always be more efficient. Aa coolers are cheaper and for the most part dont require maintence. I've yet to see any comparable aw cooler put out higher iat temps than an aa cooler.

  24. #99
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, but it isn't air water. The systems are:

    Air:Air

    Or

    Air: Water to Water:Air

    The former is more efficient.

    Air to air direct is going to get you cooler temps the majority of the time except for the cases I listed a bunch of posts back...
    Hmm. I think he means it's more efficient to remove heat since air to core to air has fewer steps/conversions than air to core to water to core to air. But all we really care about for performance is that first air to core transfer efficiency, and submerging that core in water while it's being heated by turbos is much better at that transfer than air. The total system efficiency only matters when ran at capacity.

  25. #100
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    An aw cooler can achieve cooler iat than an aa cooler even with a smaller core. You guys are over analyzing and completely looking past physics. Water removes heat about 30x better than air. Add in the fact you can add ice to the resivioir and aw wins everytime.
    I would imagine with all the guys running meth here that you wouldn't overlook how well water cools air temps.
    Last edited by turbodan; 12-16-2013 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Stupid iphone

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