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  1. #26
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    What we need here is a unbiased testing not done from F30 intercooler manufacturers. I'll be getting Wagner intercooler for my personal F30 next week and will report with some testing.

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  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Sorry, I should have been more clear. A high temperature drop will always lead to high pressure drop. I realize other factors come into play with pressure drop like end tanks though. I know the Wagner flows a lot more than stock and has a much better end tank design then stock. Additionally it cools a lot better than stock and makes more HP than stock. Knowing four things it would be impossible to come to the results they did unless they set up each test completely different than the others to get the results they wanted. The heat soak test for instance could be with no flow over it and purely based on weight of the metal using a high gear or a load dyno. I think that's too much credit though, likely the numbers are adjusted.
    A temperature drop has nothing to do with the pressure drop of an intercooler actually. The pressure drop is a measure of the cores resistance to flow, that's all. It's affected by things like core style, internal surface area, end tanks, general design etc. It's a common misconseption because people think about how cooler air is denser. While this is true, that only counts before the turbo and effects compressor efficiency and core heat exchange efficiency. Think of the air after the turbo in terms of an air mass rather than pressure, and the pressure drop as a decrease in how fast that air mass can make it to your motor.

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    Anybody tryed an air to water cooler on these cars yet? Not the best for the road course but they are amazing for drag racing and daily driving.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    A temperature drop has nothing to do with the pressure drop of an intercooler actually. The pressure drop is a measure of the cores resistance to flow, that's all. It's affected by things like core style, internal surface area, end tanks, general design etc. It's a common misconseption because people think about how cooler air is denser. While this is true, that only counts before the turbo and effects compressor efficiency and core heat exchange efficiency. Think of the air after the turbo in terms of an air mass rather than pressure, and the pressure drop as a decrease in how fast that air mass can make it to your motor.
    I guess I could see some of that since the volumes aren't constrained and the temp would decrease with volume. I think you will see a greater loss through the core though to pressure since you have to flow more air volume on the inlet side to meet the colder dense air demand on the outlet side. Flowing more air volume through the core will mean greater resistance and pressure drop. Basically all things considered for the same boost out at a lower temperature you must run more air volume through the cooler which invariably means more resistance.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by turbodan Click here to enlarge
    Anybody tryed an air to water cooler on these cars yet? Not the best for the road course but they are amazing for drag racing and daily driving.
    If you have enough money you can do it, it'll work.
    LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I guess I could see some of that since the volumes aren't constrained and the temp would decrease with volume. I think you will see a greater loss through the core though to pressure since you have to flow more air volume on the inlet side to meet the colder dense air demand on the outlet side. Flowing more air volume through the core will mean greater resistance and pressure drop. Basically all things considered for the same boost out at a lower temperature you must run more air volume through the cooler which invariably means more resistance.
    The air density isn't much of a concern for measuring pressure drops. I'm trying to think of a way to explain it, it's actually a pretty difficult concept. You have lots of physics going on at the same time from Beroulli's principle (pressure vs velocity), temperature changes, gas laws, multiple restrictions and such.

    The best way I can go about it is think of it like this. The air is compressed by the turbo. Instead of "pressure", try to think of this as a air mass... how many molecules you were able to get into that pipe post turbo. A turbo is rated mostly in terms of flow, and they will produce that flow (air mass) at various pressures, and those pressures just have to deal with how efficient they are at moving that air mass (the less efficient they are at moving that air, the higher the temperature and thus the higher the pressure). If you think of it that way... yes, there is a pressure component, but it's mostly a side effect of the turbo's efficiency. The airmass, how many molecules of air... is the important number.

    Now, picture a system with no intercooler. You will have 100% of that air mass make it to the engine. It will be at whatever pressure... this pressure is dictated not by the turbo (well it is kinda...), but in fact by the engine itself. Picture one of our tiny turbo's mounted to a 500 cubic inch V8, the amount of pressure would be nothing because that engine would suck it all up and need more... pressure, once again is not really important... just air mass. A larger engine or more efficient engine will suck more air, thus causing a lower pressure than a smaller engine with that same turbo/airmass to get it through the motor... I hope that makes sense. Boost pressure is created by an airmass trying to move through an engine if you have no intercooler.

    Now for what I'm trying to explain, a pressure drop on an intercooler... it's like you have two systems. The system between the turbo and the IC, and the system between the IC and the engine. The turbo will move a set airmass, say 50lbs/hr to the charge system. Now, say you have a tiiiiiny little intercooler there that blocks 90% of the flow. The turbo will be trying to overcome this, and thus hit 100psi on the hot side to try to move that air. On the cold side, say your engine can move 50lbs/hr with a boost pressure of 10psi... so you will see 10psi on that side. Now say you replace that restrictive IC with a yellow pipe, you will see 10psi between the turbo and the yellow pipe, and 10psi afterwards.

    Now, for temperature and density, since I didn't address that explicitly... think of the temperature not as a volume/pressure like you would in a balloon, but as a velocity. Higher temperatures will help gases move much faster, because (Bernoulli's principle here) as a fluid moves faster it's pressure is lower. This principle, since you're dealing with hard piping, balances out the density question. The hotter gasses move faster into the engine, just like the cooler gasses would move slower, but be more dense. The end result is the motor will consume whatever the turbo puts out... in my example, 50lbs/hr. NOW- if you are talking N/A, it's different- lower temps/denser air WILL effect the performance of the engine, because the velocity isn't effected at all- just the density. On a turbo system it's slightly different.

    Sorry for the long post, hope that's not clear as mud. The big thing is that heat in a turbo system is kinetic energy (velocity) and they are inversely related unlike a N/A car. You remove the heat not to add power or increase density (which lowers velocity) but to suppress knock, and you try to do that with as little restriction to the flow of that air as possible.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    If you have enough money you can do it, it'll work.
    Well I know it'll work. That's why I was askin if anyone has tryed it. With the lower intake temps from an air to water cooler it could be the answer or intervention to get these cars off meth. Basicly an air to water cooler is the only way to get intake temps below ambient air temp without running nitrious.
    It would obviously be more expensive than an air to air cooler initially but could save money in the long run as you most likely wouldn't need meth or if you did it would greatly reduce the amount.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135idct Click here to enlarge
    how much does the Mosselman fmic cost ?
    They are a Dutch company so I just called them for pricing.
    I have a Wagner IC myself and despite my feeling the engine heatsoakes less on track with the Wagner, I've always disliked the extra lag it gives.
    So this test is fairly interresting to me.
    The manager I spoke on the Phone told me they cost 1075,- if their own power tuning is included.
    And strangelt enough, without tuning you get a 50,- discount, which would make the price of one 1025,-
    My wife's parents live pretty close to them so I might pick one of these up for Christmas Click here to enlarge
    I also asked for fitment, and for this Mosselman FMIC you do need to trim some of the inner plastic to get it to fit behind the bumper.

    I know what I want for Christmas now Click here to enlarge
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    And strangelt enough, without tuning you get a €50,- discount, which would make the price of one €1025,-
    $1025 Euros?! That's absurdly expensive! You're better off going with the other well known tried and true options out there, even if shipped from the States.

    I feel like they intentionally picked the not-so-great intercoolers out there to compare their product against. It would have been more interesting had they tested against the AMS, CP-E, Helix or Cobb.
    [02/07 E92 335i 6MT] - Under Construction

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    They are a Dutch company so I just called them for pricing.
    I have a Wagner IC myself and despite my feeling the engine heatsoakes less on track with the Wagner, I've always disliked the extra lag it gives.
    So this test is fairly interresting to me.
    The manager I spoke on the Phone told me they cost €1075,- if their own power tuning is included.
    And strangelt enough, without tuning you get a €50,- discount, which would make the price of one €1025,-
    My wife's parents live pretty close to them so I might pick one of these up for Christmas Click here to enlarge
    I also asked for fitment, and for this Mosselman FMIC you do need to trim some of the inner plastic to get it to fit behind the bumper.

    I know what I want for Christmas now Click here to enlarge
    Those prices are ridiculous! I lost lag with my Wagner versus stock (at least tip in response is better). I think any amount of money to switch off to another aftermarket IC is wasted money even if the gain is a couple HP or a few milliseconds on boost build. The Wagner has a lot of surface area and not to deep of a core. There is really only so much you can do in that space (volume and shape). I dont think there will be a meaningful difference either way. You can pickup more power or quicker spool with a couple fuel, ignition, wgdc, etch changes than with this.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    $1025 Euros?! That's absurdly expensive! You're better off going with the other well known tried and true options out there, even if shipped from the States.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Those prices are ridiculous!
    Actually, thse prices are not made up.
    They are market conform.

    They are actually a little bit cheaper then if I would import a well known FMIC from the states.
    Shipping costs, taxes over item+ shipping costs make a USA brand FMIC around €1080,- or more here in hand.
    You people over there just have all the best prices.
    They are not planning to sell any of these FMIC's to the states. That is just not their market.
    They just compete with prices it would cost to import one from the States.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nitehawk Click here to enlarge
    It would have been more interesting had they tested against the AMS, CP-E, Helix or Cobb.
    The Wagner FMIC is fairly identical to the Helix.
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  12. #37
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    If we are going to compare intercoolers, let's get some accurate testing data on this thread:

    All Wagner intercoolers are bench tested on a SF-1020 Flowbench which is the only bench that can push out 1000cfm. Check out the bench chart below from Wagner:

    Click here to enlarge

    Customer Review:
    http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679194

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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Actually, thse prices are not made up.
    They are market conform.

    They are actually a little bit cheaper then if I would import a well known FMIC from the states.
    Shipping costs, taxes over item+ shipping costs make a USA brand FMIC around €1080,- or more here in hand.
    You people over there just have all the best prices.
    They are not planning to sell any of these FMIC's to the states. That is just not their market.
    They just compete with prices it would cost to import one from the States.



    The Wagner FMIC is fairly identical to the Helix.
    Wagner is $600 or 400 EU. You're saying there is 120% in taxes?

  14. #39
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    I payed €700 for my Wagner FMIC, and ordered it straight from the Wagner factory.
    I have no idea why it is that cheap in the US.
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  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Wagner is $600 or 400 EU. You're saying there is 120% in taxes?
    Wagner is $690.00 USD which is a really nice price point. Wagner doesn't have many "middle-men" in between them and the consumer which helps keep cost down.

    http://www.modbargains.com/wagner-tu...ntercooler.htm


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    The air density isn't much of a concern for measuring pressure drops. I'm trying to think of a way to explain it, it's actually a pretty difficult concept. You have lots of physics going on at the same time from Beroulli's principle (pressure vs velocity), temperature changes, gas laws, multiple restrictions and such.

    The best way I can go about it is think of it like this. The air is compressed by the turbo. Instead of "pressure", try to think of this as a air mass... how many molecules you were able to get into that pipe post turbo. A turbo is rated mostly in terms of flow, and they will produce that flow (air mass) at various pressures, and those pressures just have to deal with how efficient they are at moving that air mass (the less efficient they are at moving that air, the higher the temperature and thus the higher the pressure). If you think of it that way... yes, there is a pressure component, but it's mostly a side effect of the turbo's efficiency. The airmass, how many molecules of air... is the important number.

    Now, picture a system with no intercooler. You will have 100% of that air mass make it to the engine. It will be at whatever pressure... this pressure is dictated not by the turbo (well it is kinda...), but in fact by the engine itself. Picture one of our tiny turbo's mounted to a 500 cubic inch V8, the amount of pressure would be nothing because that engine would suck it all up and need more... pressure, once again is not really important... just air mass. A larger engine or more efficient engine will suck more air, thus causing a lower pressure than a smaller engine with that same turbo/airmass to get it through the motor... I hope that makes sense. Boost pressure is created by an airmass trying to move through an engine if you have no intercooler.

    Now for what I'm trying to explain, a pressure drop on an intercooler... it's like you have two systems. The system between the turbo and the IC, and the system between the IC and the engine. The turbo will move a set airmass, say 50lbs/hr to the charge system. Now, say you have a tiiiiiny little intercooler there that blocks 90% of the flow. The turbo will be trying to overcome this, and thus hit 100psi on the hot side to try to move that air. On the cold side, say your engine can move 50lbs/hr with a boost pressure of 10psi... so you will see 10psi on that side. Now say you replace that restrictive IC with a yellow pipe, you will see 10psi between the turbo and the yellow pipe, and 10psi afterwards.

    Now, for temperature and density, since I didn't address that explicitly... think of the temperature not as a volume/pressure like you would in a balloon, but as a velocity. Higher temperatures will help gases move much faster, because (Bernoulli's principle here) as a fluid moves faster it's pressure is lower. This principle, since you're dealing with hard piping, balances out the density question. The hotter gasses move faster into the engine, just like the cooler gasses would move slower, but be more dense. The end result is the motor will consume whatever the turbo puts out... in my example, 50lbs/hr. NOW- if you are talking N/A, it's different- lower temps/denser air WILL effect the performance of the engine, because the velocity isn't effected at all- just the density. On a turbo system it's slightly different.

    Sorry for the long post, hope that's not clear as mud. The big thing is that heat in a turbo system is kinetic energy (velocity) and they are inversely related unlike a N/A car. You remove the heat not to add power or increase density (which lowers velocity) but to suppress knock, and you try to do that with as little restriction to the flow of that air as possible.
    Hi.
    I think you are confusing static pressure which goes along with entropy/heat, and temperature that increases exponentially when compressed by the turbo (and moor than exponential as the ic drops out of efficiency range). That is something we want to reduce in the IC. Also when we reduce that entropy in the IC the temperature and pressure is reduced only proportionally to the temperature drop. Meaning overall we win by keeping some of the pressurised air, with higher density that has more air molecules per charge and as close as possible to ambient temperature.

    Dynamic pressure something different entirely and should be disregarded as it doesn't apply during the important bit, combustion. Because when the air stops moving the dynamic pressure difference is zero.

    Knock also doesn't come into the equation of ic efficiency really at all.

    Chris

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    Anyone have dimensions on their intercoller that isn't metric?

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by crypticc Click here to enlarge
    Hi.
    I think you are confusing static pressure which goes along with entropy/heat, and temperature that increases exponentially when compressed by the turbo (and moor than exponential as the ic drops out of efficiency range). That is something we want to reduce in the IC. Also when we reduce that entropy in the IC the temperature and pressure is reduced only proportionally to the temperature drop. Meaning overall we win by keeping some of the pressurised air, with higher density that has more air molecules per charge and as close as possible to ambient temperature.

    Dynamic pressure something different entirely and should be disregarded as it doesn't apply during the important bit, combustion. Because when the air stops moving the dynamic pressure difference is zero.

    Knock also doesn't come into the equation of ic efficiency really at all.

    Chris
    The point of lowering the temperature of the aircharge is to reduce the propensity of knock. Never said it had anything to do with IC efficiency. If you are not concerned with knock, you do not need to run an intercooler. For example, in some methanol powered high power builds I've been a part of an intercooler isn't always used because the heat is not an issue for the fuel, so any reduction in the entropy of the gas (aka velocity) is more detrimental to power than having some heat. But for a road car on pump gas, absolutely knock is a factor, which is the primary reason for an intercoolers existence.

    Entropy is not heat although they are closely related. While you are reducing the heat of the aircharge, you are also reducing it's entropy inside the intercooler, which in a closed system like this results in a loss of engery of motion (which loosely translates to velocity). The dynamic pressure does matter, not in the cylinder of course, but in the intake and in the chargepipe it absolutely does matter.

    This is what is boils down to: Whatever air the turbo moves WILL be processed by the engine. Therefore, pressure and density make no difference whatsoever. You want that air to move as efficiently (quickly) as possible to the engine and you want to cool it to a point where you will have no knock. A large pressure drop is NOT due to any change in air density due to cooling, it's due to the restrictive properties of the intercooler. I can't really properly explain this without some CAD modeling to assist though and some chapters from a fluid dynamics book and mechanical engineering book.

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    That's not true in reality as density absolutely makes every bit of difference in an internal combustion engine. Your thinking of an engine as an air pump which it is to a point. That point ends once fuel and ignition are added.
    At the end of all this some compromises must be made. A certain amount of pressure loss is absolutely acceptable so long as the resulting power increase from the tempature drop is enough to justify the loss.
    Ideally every setup would run nitrious and race fuel and no intercooler but that's unrealistic in a street driven car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by uniter Click here to enlarge
    Study by cigarette company finds smoking non-addictive, healthy.
    This.

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    Of course density matters. That's why NA cars make more power in the cold. That's why turbos make more power in the cold (more efficient turbos). But it has absolutely nothing to do with what happens after the turbo. The thing is... velocity of the air is just as important to get the air in, as the density of that air. If you have air that's less dense but it's going much faster, you'll make the same power as a car sucking denser air slower. If velocity wasn't important, velocity stacks wouldn't exist, intake manifolds and heads would be designed different, etc. In your turbo system, when you cool the air yes sure it gets more dense, but it's also now moving slower. The end result is the motor takes in less of the dense air, making it back up more and have higher pressure at a slower speed. So thus your pressure drop on the intercooler isn't related at all to the cooling of the charge/density, only to the resistance to flow.

    I concede, I cannot explain this one well enough. Sorry guys.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ModBargains.com Click here to enlarge
    What we need here is a unbiased testing not done from F30 intercooler manufacturers. I'll be getting Wagner intercooler for my personal F30 next week and will report with some testing.

    -Frank
    @ModBargains.com please send me the results.

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    The engine is an air pump and at no point does that ever change, regardless of combustion really. And yes you're right, pressure drop is assumed... but that drop is not related to cooler denser air, it's related to restriction of the core 98%. I was attempting to explain why the density of the air post turbo and post intercooler makes no difference to the pressure drop, as it's related to restriction. And I'm apparently failing miserably to explain how heat and entropy and velocity and such relate in a system with a compressor a pump a heat exchanger and a restriction.

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    HPF is still one of the best intercoolers out there. ..and still the only one that uses the OEM connectors. As for the pressure drop, I am not so certain about that....
    From all the things I've lost,
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    I am with V8Bait when it comes to air density. To give you an idea:

    Air at -25 degrees centigrade (very cold winter day) is about 17% more dense than air at +30 degrees (hot summer day) centigrade.

    17% density difference also means 17% more O2 per unit volume of air. That means that on a cold winter day your engine will use approximate 17% more fuel compared to the same engine running on a hot summer day. More fuel means more power.
    From all the things I've lost,
    I miss my mind the most!
    Click here to enlarge

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