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  1. #51
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    "pedal" reads 100% on both so it's at WOT the N55 doesn't have a "throttle" does it? I wonder what the "throttle" on the log actually is?
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    Terry told me that the N55 uses the throttle to regulate the turbo boost. That's why I'm asking

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335i-BB Click here to enlarge
    Terry told me that the N55 uses the throttle to regulate the turbo boost. That's why I'm asking
    Actually it is the DME program that uses the throttle plate to regulate boost. Cobb does also in a very similar manner.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335i-BB Click here to enlarge
    Hi Terry.
    Nice log. If I look at it I can see that the THROTTLE is nearly instantly at 100%. On your VARGAS log it is @ 100% when you reach full boost which is "normal on a N55" as you've stated on N54tech.com. But your nice 135i log doesn't show this behaviour at all and spools like hell. What's the reason, Terry?
    Its kind of irrelevant to be honest. Sure some PWM can be regained on spool up if he can tune it out (N55 shouldn't require nearly that much PWM to spool), but its already through the roof there and youre talking about a couple psi down low. You still know at 5000+rpm its only making 410whp or so WOT with solid timing, fuel, and MAXED out PWM. Just for reference on the N54 side, basically no one maxes out PWM and certainly not for that much of the rev range. That's a recipe for a blowed turbo. Maybe its fine here, but I doubt it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Tony you burned your bridges with me before I sat in this car to tune it ....
    If that is true, then why in the world would you buy a turbo from him?

    The problem with piggybacks is they constantly try to fool the DME with altered sensor data. Much better to flash the DME with custom algorithms and tables to match what one is tuning instead of tying to guess how the DME will react to falsified sensor readings. Just saying no OEM tunes with methanol nor piggy backs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    If that is true, then why in the world would you buy a turbo from him?

    The problem with piggybacks is they constantly try to fool the DME with altered sensor data. Much better to flash the DME with custom algorithms and tables to match what one is tuning instead of tying to guess how the DME will react to falsified sensor readings. Just saying no OEM tunes with methanol nor piggy backs.
    Seriously? Are you even looking at the logs? The statement you make here is pretty generic and doesn't really apply to this thread nor does it cover the benefits of what a piggyback can do. Mainly:

    1. Auto tuning and safety - Knock is monitored and then tuning is adjusted.
    2. Custom I/O - Meth control, NLS/2STEP, boost control capability on any turbo, etc. Basically anything you want and input/output to control can be compatible.
    3. Isolated boost control - Stock boost control algorithms suck compared to piggyback capability. Better spool here.

    There are a bunch of other benefits like gauges, shift lights, exhaust flap controls, etc, but you can read more if you want. In a perfect world would we need another controller on top versus just reprogramming thru DME? No. We aren't Siemens though and can't reprogram the whole DME and wont be able to for many years if ever. Until then both solutions flash and piggyback bring some benefits, why wouldn't you just run both? Flashing is literally free, but I still run jb4 too for all the benefits it brings.

    The spool up here isn't the issue, sure you could get more PWM at 3500rpm (even though stock it doesn't need it there), the issue is that PWM is maxed and its only putting down 410whp. You could throw in more timing and fuel and maybe get to 440whp-450whp, but this is in KILL mode running 100% PWM. Not what id want from an upgrade. Either theres something wrong with the hardware fundamentally or there is something wrong with the setup. It isn't tuning though with PWM like that.
    Last edited by rudypoochris; 12-06-2013 at 12:00 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Seriously? Are you even looking at the logs? The statement you make here is pretty generic and doesn't really apply to this thread nor does it cover the benefits of what a piggyback can do. Mainly:

    1. Auto tuning and safety - Knock is monitored and then tuning is adjusted.
    2. Custom I/O - Meth control, NLS/2STEP, boost control capability on any turbo, etc. Basically anything you want and input/output to control can be compatible.
    3. Isolated boost control - Stock boost control algorithms suck compared to piggyback capability. Better spool here.

    There are a bunch of other benefits like gauges, shift lights, exhaust flap controls, etc, but you can read more if you want. In a perfect world would we need another controller on top versus just reprogramming thru DME? No. We aren't Siemens though and can't reprogram the whole DME and wont be able to for many years if ever. Until then both solutions flash and piggyback bring some benefits, why wouldn't you just run both? Flashing is literally free, but I still run jb4 too for all the benefits it brings.

    The spool up here isn't the issue, sure you could get more PWM at 3500rpm (even though stock it doesn't need it there), the issue is that PWM is maxed and its only putting down 410whp. You could throw in more timing and fuel and maybe get to 440whp-450whp, but this is in KILL mode running 100% PWM. Not what id want from an upgrade. Either theres something wrong with the hardware fundamentally or there is something wrong with the setup. It isn't tuning though with PWM like that.
    Well, i mean technically, tuning isn't adjusted. Boost is just reduced. Not exactly tuning imo. Autotuning is something you will most likely not see with an upgraded turbo, its too risky to play Russian roulette with the knock sensor.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335i-BB Click here to enlarge
    Hi Terry.
    Nice log. If I look at it I can see that the THROTTLE is nearly instantly at 100%. On your VARGAS log it is @ 100% when you reach full boost which is "normal on a N55" as you've stated on N54tech.com. But your nice 135i log doesn't show this behaviour at all and spools like hell. What's the reason, Terry?
    The stock turbo log also has our back end flash in which we've dampened the DME's spool up throttle behavior. Unless the throttle is closing more than 40% it has no real effect especially at lower engine speeds. We cleaned it up on the flash side just to avoid customers asking why it's not 100% open. Click here to enlarge
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  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    If that is true, then why in the world would you buy a turbo from him?

    The problem with piggybacks is they constantly try to fool the DME with altered sensor data. Much better to flash the DME with custom algorithms and tables to match what one is tuning instead of tying to guess how the DME will react to falsified sensor readings. Just saying no OEM tunes with methanol nor piggy backs.
    You're welcome to purchase this turbo and attempt to tune it flash only if you're so inclined. You'll find it's going to be a headache. Tuning strategies between flash tunes and piggybacks is beyond the scope of this thread. But reading your statement above at a minimum I'd say you've got a lot of learning to do. Click here to enlarge

    On "buying" this turbo, Tony refused to refund our deposit on it when requested. So we shipped the car to him so that we could at least be assured the turbo was properly installed and working as intended. He sent it back with the VANOS bolts failed (probably not his fault), we had to repair the engine at our expense, and then we did a preliminary tune and dyno which is in the first post. Somewhere in between that process of the car getting sent back and us repairing it we got just one too many nasty emails from Tony which pushed us over the edge on him.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-06-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spool twice Click here to enlarge
    "pedal" reads 100% on both so it's at WOT the N55 doesn't have a "throttle" does it? I wonder what the "throttle" on the log actually is?
    you should get this turbo upgrade.

    Spool twice! get it??? HAHAA??? omg ok stop

    sorry
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Well, i mean technically, tuning isn't adjusted. Boost is just reduced. Not exactly tuning imo. Autotuning is something you will most likely not see with an upgraded turbo, its too risky to play Russian roulette with the knock sensor.
    On the JB4 autotuning at least boost & fuel is adjusted, as well as the base wastegate duty cycle curve. If equipped with CPS wires then the upper advance limit is adjusted as well as part of that process. But now that the back end flash tuning is so easy to add we prefer to just cap the timing on the flash side based on the fuel used.

    I think larger turbos makes auto tuning strategies more important. Not in terms of dialing up performance. But once the car is dyno tuned you want the tune to dial back performance if something doesn't look right.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    This was sold as an actual final product and I expected it to work as such. Given the numerous other issues we have with Vargas I don't feel compelled to hide my displeasure with the performance of this thing. I'm tired of sweeping his crap under the rug and I'm sure anyone who laid out $4k for this thing as we did appreciates the candid data as to where this upgrade is right now. If anything this data which I'm providing on BMS' dime is going to greatly further advance development on this thing.
    One of the more intelligent posts I've seen to-date. Nice. Happy to see I'm not the only one that understands this was not a "spot in line" or "make a deposit" scenario and the kit was being sold as a final production turbo kit.

    The N55 crew definitely appreciate the fact that while you're continuing to test the turbo to see if it's capable of 500+ HP, you're also testing flash tunes on a stock N55 turbo so we can see true data behind our purchases. If the flash will produce another 30 HP, which it appears is very possible, then I will happily drop $800 on a Cobb AP to gain another 30hp vs. $4,000 to gain relatively the same.

    This is why Terry is conducting both tests and why he has such a professional base of BMW followers. To a guy who doesn't have 10s of thousands to just throw around for people to R&D products on my dime, we appreciate the due diligence to get the most gains for the best buck.

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    you should get this turbo upgrade.

    Spool twice! get it??? HAHAA??? omg ok stop

    sorry
    LMAO!!!!!!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The turbo is using custom wheels so it's always possible there is just a design flaw with the wheels or they are not properly matched up. As far as I know he did not touch the flapper/wastegate so I doubt that is screwed up but it's possible. But most likely the turbine side is choking it off. There isn't a bung in this manifold so I have no easy way to check the back pressure ratio but even at 3:1 I'd expect more top end boost based on the wheels. The way it quickly spools to 4 PSI then slowly goes up from there leads me to believe there is some sort of turbine side issues. Maybe related to the twin scroll. I've never seen the turbo so once it's off I'll look at it more closely.

    He keeps claiming tuning so I ask what they'd like changed on the tuning end and I get back silence. If I can get the DME updated I will crank the timing up and fix the low end AFR. Maybe with tons of E85, meth, and timing, this turbo will hit 440whp. But I expect the factory turbo will hit 415whp with that same tuning.

    The funny thing is this is using the same dyno Tony proclaimed as "high reading" when we were making 530-550whp using RB turbos. Suddenly now it's a low reading dyno, lol.
    Hey Terry, I don't live on the forums like you. If you need to get a hold of me you know how, so play your middle school, I posted on the forums and he didn't respond guess he disappeared games with someone else, I will continue to live in the real world. I don't want anything changed on the tuning. I want my turbo back so I can test it with someone I trust, the end. Please show me where I said your dyno is reading low or even addressed the numbers. Your dyno does read high its a fact, there is nothing wrong with the turbo, and again your very little knowledge of turbochargers is shocking since you work on turbo motors day in and day out. When you see a turbo spool up then slow down, the gate being cracked open or the car is finding a way to slow it down IE valvetronic, vanos etc. I am not sure what part of a turbo is a mechanical assembly you dont understand, it spins as fast as the exhaust going through it makes it spin, you have it spinning at 75,000 RPM the ONLY way to slow it down, is to reduce the exhaust flow its seeing, if you cant shut the gate with vacuum manually and get 25+ psi down low when there would be no back pressure there is a reason, we just need to find out what it is. Its very simple, put a paddle in a moving river, its going to spin as fast as the water is pushing it, only way to slow it down is to divert some water around it, you are trying to make it complicated. Something in the DME is bleeding boost or cracking the gate, and since the tuning on the N55 is just in its infancy we really don't know. Just pull the thing and send it back so we can be done.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 12-06-2013 at 07:17 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You're welcome to purchase this turbo and attempt to tune it flash only if you're so inclined. You'll find it's going to be a headache. Tuning strategies between flash tunes and piggybacks is beyond the scope of this thread. But reading your statement above at a minimum I'd say you've got a lot of learning to do. Click here to enlarge

    On "buying" this turbo, Tony refused to refund our deposit on it when requested. So we shipped the car to him so that we could at least be assured the turbo was properly installed and working as intended. He sent it back with the VANOS bolts failed (probably not his fault), we had to repair the engine at our expense, and then we did a preliminary tune and dyno which is in the first post. Somewhere in between that process of the car getting sent back and us repairing it we got just one too many nasty emails from Tony which pushed us over the edge on him.
    Sigh more BS from this guy. You know exactly why you got the nasty email. You were doing your usual back and forth bs with Dzenno and brought us into it again because thats just who you are. That is what pushed US over the edge on YOU. Not the other way around, don't get it twisted big guy.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Hey Terry, I don't live on the forums like you. If you need to get a hold of me you know how, so play your middle school, I posted on the forums and he didn't respond guess he disappeared games with someone else, I will continue to live in the real world. I don't want anything changed on the tuning. I want my turbo back so I can test it with someone I trust, the end. Please show me where I said your dyno is reading low or even addressed the numbers. Your dyno does read high its a fact, there is nothing wrong with the turbo, and again your very little knowledge of turbochargers is shocking since you work on turbo motors day in and day out. When you see a turbo spool up then slow down, the gate being cracked open or the car is finding a way to slow it down IE valvetronic, vanos etc. I am not sure what part of a turbo is a mechanical assembly you dont understand, it spins as fast as the exhaust going through it makes it spin, you have it spinning at 75,000 RPM the ONLY way to slow it down, is to reduce the exhaust flow its seeing, if you cant shut the gate with vacuum manually and get 25+ psi down low when there would be no back pressure there is a reason, we just need to find out what it is. Its very simple, put a paddle in a moving river, its going to spin as fast as the water is pushing it, only way to slow it down is to divert some water around it, you are trying to make it complicated. Something in the DME is bleeding boost or cracking the gate, and since the tuning on the N55 is just in its infancy we really don't know. Just pull the thing and send it back so we can be done.
    I've ordered another stock turbo and it's shipping around Monday. So we should be able to swap it back on the week after this. Looking at the data I personally don't beleive the turbo spool is being interrupted. It jumps up to 4psi quickly then slowly build up to peak. Spool aside it's the top end boost that is bothering me. Like I said from the beginning I want this car to make 500whp and if it did what we expected I would have been talking this thing up like no tomorrow regardless of my opinion of how you're running your business.

    PS. I helped one of your customers tune a set of N54 S2 turbos today and the results were not bad at all. I could offer my opinion on what I liked and disliked about them but I'll let others look at the data and draw conclusions. If I give my opinion first then I'm sure you'll think I'm attacking or trying to sabotage you which really isn't the case.
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    Click here to enlarge hopefully issues are addressed. I would hope to see over 500 wheel with this upgrade.
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    Well, if everything in this thread is to be believed, Terry can't tune and Tony has no clue about turbos.

    I doubt if either is completely true.

    So guys, less BS and go back to the shop and do the best each of you can do. Ignore the sour public relations posts and instead do the best each of you can.

    Remember, it is a poor carpenter who blames his tools. Back to work, then report when you have definitive results without having to blame somebody or something. Just the facts, mam.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by maxnix Click here to enlarge
    Well, if everything in this thread is to be believed, Terry can't tune and Tony has no clue about turbos.

    I doubt if either is completely true.

    So guys, less BS and go back to the shop and do the best each of you can do. Ignore the sour public relations posts and instead do the best each of you can.

    Remember, it is a poor carpenter who blames his tools. Back to work, then report when you have definitive results without having to blame somebody or something. Just the facts, mam.
    The tuning is clearly shown in the logs. If Tony, Dzenno (his tuner), you, or anyone else has any plausible ideas for things to try out on the tuning while the current turbo is installed speak now or forever hold your peace.

    Once redesigned this thing may work. I know ASR is working on a similar N55 upgrade and they had an opinion on why this one isn't working which I don't care to share as I can't verify it. But rest assured I've consulted with several others in the know on turbo hardware and I'm confident at this point that something is going on with the hardware. The last possible thing would be the wastegate not fully seating. Seems like a long shot but when we pull the turbo off I'll visually inspect its movement with a mightyvac.
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    i have no idea and i have no dog in le race so to speak. but based on the spool characteristics it seems as the wastegate may be cracking early. What PSI spring is in it? 12PSI? if so then its hard not to think its the wastegate. who knows.. need moar fast bmw to race thats all i know.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    i have no idea and i have no dog in le race so to speak. but based on the spool characteristics it seems as the wastegate may be cracking early. What PSI spring is in it? 12PSI? if so then its hard not to think its the wastegate. who knows.. need moar fast bmw to race thats all i know.
    It's an OEM vacuum operated wastegate. Vacuum is applied to close the flapper which in turn builds boost. PWM = 100% is solenoid fully open = flapper closed as tight as it can be... At first I thought maybe the flapper was not machined properly but since realized Tony uses the OEM parts there it's unlikely. There is always a chance it's just set wrong.

    What is more suspect to me are the wheels. It's a custom reverse rotation wheel. You can't order them off the shelf as far as I know so someone had to design it. Maybe whoever did that did a poor job?
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-07-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The tuning is clearly shown in the logs, and I've done all I can do to eliminate non-hardware related issues with this thing. For reasons already stated we'll be turning to more reputable sources for N55 turbo kits once this cluster$#@! is over.
    Hmmmmm, so basically you are stating for the record, you have nailed down all the N55 tuning. There is no more to learn or be done, its a hardware issue, throwing up your hands per se. I am saving this post, to repost after we get back out "flawed" hardware and someone actually takes the time to figure out why boost all over the place and why its also not behaving up top. With the lessons we learned from stage 3, the DME can do all sorts of crazy stuff when it doesn't like what it is seeing, and it usually results in opening the gate. Its good to know you agree to be a tester and are the first one to try to tune an upgraded turbo N55, and you throw your hands after a few tuning sessions and blame the hardware. Way to go Terry! You really have the N55 communities back. I hope everyone with an N55 is watching this and is actually paying attention to how little you are doing to figure this out, and just blaming hardware, when its pretty obvious its not hardware since a turbo cant stop itself from spooling, its impossible, also a not fully seated wastegate is just that not fully seated. Meaning exhaust flow is bypassing all the time, so you want us to believe the gate is seated, then gets unseated, then seats again? Well wait if it is the gate, actually that's what it is doing, because the actuator is unseating it! Anyways, glad you got a stock turbo, make sure you send me back everything when you send me the turbo. Thanks for all your hard work.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 12-07-2013 at 05:37 PM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's an OEM vacuum operated wastegate. Vacuum is applied to close the flapper which in turn builds boost. PWM = 100% is solenoid fully open = flapper closed as tight as it can be... At first I thought maybe the flapper was not machined properly but since realized Tony uses the OEM parts there it's unlikely. There is always a chance it's just set wrong.

    What is more suspect to me are the wheels. It's a custom reverse rotation wheel. You can't order them off the shelf as far as I know so someone had to design it. Maybe whoever did that did a poor job?
    mayhap its good down low and the reverse sorcery of the wheel encounters too much backpressure from the N55 exhaust and it struggles to over come it??
    pull of le exhaust and watch it spool!

    lol or not.

    actually id rather see you get back to the single turbo 6466 and "officially" make 700 b4 me Click here to enlarge my cars under the knife again so you should win this battle for now
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  24. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    someone actually takes the time to figure out why the gate is cracking and why its also cracking up top
    what spring is in it Tony? and i still say put a MBC on it just to rule out the DME boost logic.

    Easy to do. I love running my Hallman. No $#@! talkin from the DME lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's an OEM vacuum operated wastegate. Vacuum is applied to close the flapper which in turn builds boost. PWM = 100% is solenoid fully open = flapper closed as tight as it can be... At first I thought maybe the flapper was not machined properly but since realized Tony uses the OEM parts there it's unlikely. There is always a chance it's just set wrong.

    What is more suspect to me are the wheels. It's a custom reverse rotation wheel. You can't order them off the shelf as far as I know so someone had to design it. Maybe whoever did that did a poor job?
    Keep grasping at straws bud and point to hardware, hardware, hardware. Yes, its the wheels, its poor machining, back pressure, keep em coming. That one log tells you all you need to know, the DME in interfering and killing boost, no matter what you are telling your JB to do, its doing it anyways. As I said, not something new to us, as we experienced it during stage 3 testing, had to fight the thing tooth and nail at times to get boost. Jake and Josh, spent literally 2 full days on the dyno and boost was just kicking all of our butts could not get more than X, Dzenno having spent the most time with me on it, dug deep and found some tables, and voila we had all the boost we wanted. That you are throwing up your hands and blaming hardware this early in the N55 tuning game is pretty foolish for someone who sells tuning products.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 12-07-2013 at 05:35 PM.

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