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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    100% PWM = 23" vacuum. I've been using JB products long enough to know if PWM is at 100% it's at full vacuum.

    Can the wastegate rod be manually adjusted on the N55 like on the N54?
    of course it can, I set it tighter than stock, don't forget this isn't an N54, but we did run into a similar issue on the stage 3 car in the beginning, we were telling the DME to give us 100 wgdc. It would show us it was, boost acted identical to this, you can really see if if you do a 6th gear pull and just roll into with a analog gauge boost builds and then if would actually drop back 2 psi or so then start to build again, I am not sure what D had to do to fix it, but I assume he had to dig into some other tables. The point is, just because the log shows 100% wgdc does not mean that actually what is happening, it's clear as day, boost builds and the gate is cracked open and the turbine slows, which in turn is killing the spool. At this point I really don't even care if Terry tries to figure it out. I would prefer to just have someone I can trust doing our product tuning, on such a new product.

  2. #27
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    of course it can, I set it tighter than stock, don't forget this isn't an N54, but we did run into a similar issue on the stage 3 car in the beginning, we were telling the DME to give us 100 wgdc. It would show us it was, boost acted identical to this, you can really see if if you do a 6th gear pull and just roll into with a analog gauge boost builds and then if would actually drop back 2 psi or so then start to build again, I am not sure what D had to do to fix it, but I assume he had to dig into some other tables. The point is, just because the log shows 100% wgdc does not mean that actually what is happening, it's clear as day, boost builds and the gate is cracked open and the turbine slows, which in turn is killing the spool. At this point I really don't even care if Terry tries to figure it out. I would prefer to just have someone I can trust doing our product tuning, on such a new product.
    He already said that he teed in a boost gauge to measure vacuum post-solenoid. Not sure what else he can do to confirm the JB4 is doing what it should. N55 is quite a bit limited in terms of tuning options, Cobb only works on a very specific MY, Procede is just an utter failure, which leaves the JB4.

  3. #28
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    Went out and did a little more testing.

    First, made a video showing the wastegate is getting full vacuum. To those who understand N5X boost control systems this is a critical step. I tested it on dyno as well but did not video it but at this time seems like a good idea to document it as fact.



    I then disconnected the diverter valve solenoid electrical connector and did a 3rd gear run. Boost was roughly the same as the dyno. Maybe 1psi higher at peak due to the much colder weather but still tapers heavily up top. Dyno log was done in 65 degree weather. I could hear the turbo surging when letting off the gas so the DV was definitely disabled.

    Then I pulled over, reconnected it, and did another run. Boost was roughly the same as with the diverter valve connected. Note on the DV off log I let off as soon as I saw boost taper back down to 15psi.

    So IMHO the diverter valve is not the issue. The only things left are the wastegate not fully seating internally or possibly a bad combination of wheels/machining.

    I've spoken to some other knowledgeable turbo hardware guys and they think picking up 50-60whp @ 6000rpm with this turbo upgrade is maybe about what it should be doing. So maybe this is just a case of reality not matching expectations rather than botched upgrade. But as I go through this testing I'm quickly coming to the realization that this car needs a *real* turbo upgrade.

    Before pulling the turbo I'll see if we can get the DME updated to the latest version so we can load up the back end flash and try bumping up timing on it. Maybe a ton of timing down low will mask the torque loss enough to make this upgrade palatable for someone.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    He already said that he teed in a boost gauge to measure vacuum post-solenoid. Not sure what else he can do to confirm the JB4 is doing what it should. N55 is quite a bit limited in terms of tuning options, Cobb only works on a very specific MY, Procede is just an utter failure, which leaves the JB4.
    Quit trying to confuse him with logic! Click here to enlarge
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    So IMHO the diverter valve is not the issue. The only things left are the wastegate not fully seating internally or possibly a bad combination of wheels/machining.

    I've spoken to some other knowledgeable turbo hardware guys and they think picking up 50-60whp @ 6000rpm with this turbo upgrade is maybe about what it should be doing. So maybe this is just a case of reality not matching expectations rather than botched upgrade. But as I go through this testing I'm quickly coming to the realization that this car needs a *real* turbo upgrade.
    If done right, this should make around 150whp over what you were making with the stock turbo. The gtx wheel is huge and if he did get whole CHRA to fit in there with the machining he did then there shouldn't be a problem. If you can get a way to test back pressure you can find out for sure if it's being choked or the WG. If the pressure is over 2:1 then you're $#@!ed and it's a bad wheel/ exhuast setup. If not then I would say it is definitely the WG cracking open at the way it spools so quickly.
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    If done right, this should make around 150whp over what you were making with the stock turbo. The gtx wheel is huge and if he did get whole CHRA to fit in there with the machining he did then there shouldn't be a problem. If you can get a way to test back pressure you can find out for sure if it's being choked or the WG. If the pressure is over 2:1 then you're $#@!ed and it's a bad wheel/ exhuast setup. If not then I would say it is definitely the WG cracking open at the way it spools so quickly.
    The turbo is using custom wheels so it's always possible there is just a design flaw with the wheels or they are not properly matched up. As far as I know he did not touch the flapper/wastegate so I doubt that is screwed up but it's possible. But most likely the turbine side is choking it off. There isn't a bung in this manifold so I have no easy way to check the back pressure ratio but even at 3:1 I'd expect more top end boost based on the wheels. The way it quickly spools to 4 PSI then slowly goes up from there leads me to believe there is some sort of turbine side issues. Maybe related to the twin scroll. I've never seen the turbo so once it's off I'll look at it more closely.

    He keeps claiming tuning so I ask what they'd like changed on the tuning end and I get back silence. If I can get the DME updated I will crank the timing up and fix the low end AFR. Maybe with tons of E85, meth, and timing, this turbo will hit 440whp. But I expect the factory turbo will hit 415whp with that same tuning.

    The funny thing is this is using the same dyno Tony proclaimed as "high reading" when we were making 530-550whp using RB turbos. Suddenly now it's a low reading dyno, lol.
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  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The turbo is using custom wheels so it's always possible there is just a design flaw with the wheels or they are not properly matched up. As far as I know he did not touch the flapper/wastegate so I doubt that is screwed up but it's possible. But most likely the turbine side is choking it off. There isn't a bung in this manifold so I have no easy way to check the back pressure ratio but even at 3:1 I'd expect more top end boost based on the wheels. The way it quickly spools to 4 PSI then slowly goes up from there leads me to believe there is some sort of turbine side issues. Maybe related to the twin scroll. I've never seen the turbo so once it's off I'll look at it more closely.

    He keeps claiming tuning so I ask what they'd like changed on the tuning end and I get back silence. If I can get the DME updated I will crank the timing up and fix the low end AFR. Maybe with tons of E85, meth, and timing, this turbo will hit 440whp. But I expect the factory turbo will hit 415whp with that same tuning.

    The funny thing is this is using the same dyno Tony proclaimed as "high reading" when we were making 530-550whp using RB turbos. Suddenly now it's a low reading dyno, lol.
    Hmmm, that is a bummer. If we could get a direct reading of pressure we can narrow it down. Same thing happened to the other link I posted with the other guy. Spooled super quick, held low boost wouldn't go more and would drop by redline. Just like your logs show us. He tried a bigger AR exhaust housing, still didn't do the trick. It lowered the back pressure from 3:1 to 2:5:1. He then changed the turbine wheel with that AR housing and bam. Back pressure when down to 1:1 low rpm then mid range and top end was 2:1 which is pretty much right on the money.

    Tuning can only do so much, the turbo is spooling. There is something else that's not letting it do it's job. I wish I was more familiar to JB4 logs, but it's not as descriptive as my HPTuners was so I can't go further into the details of information of what's exactly happening.

    Specialty z is not a high reading dyno at all. It's very very accurate to the point that my lbs/min flow is exactly 15% loss on the dyno. EAS is a high reading dyno LOL
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  8. #33
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    Just for a comparison here is a log from our stock turbo 135i N55 from yesterday. Note how the OEM turbo spools quickly to 20psi and holds that to 4000rpm where boost drops off heavily. While the Vargas turbo spools slowly towards a peak around 5000rpm and drops off from there.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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  9. #34
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    wow... SMH

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    What are the specs of the OEM vs Vargas tubrine wheel and compressor wheel? Inducer/exducer, anyone know? And what A/R the turbine housing is?
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    I'd pressure test the charge side of the system. Also, can you manually put 23" of vacuum to the wastegate and feel if the wastegate is closed? Not sure if there is enoguh room on the N55. Is it possible the wastegate is blowing open?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I'd pressure test the charge side of the system. Also, can you manually put 23" of vacuum to the wastegate and feel if the wastegate is closed? Not sure if there is enoguh room on the N55. Is it possible the wastegate is blowing open?
    This has been mentioned, just not tested yet. Terry and Tony both mentioned it as a possibility.
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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    This has been mentioned, just not tested yet. Terry and Tony both mentioned it as a possibility.
    Yep, just gotta wait and see.
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  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    What are the specs of the OEM vs Vargas tubrine wheel and compressor wheel? Inducer/exducer, anyone know? And what A/R the turbine housing is?
    It was in the n55 test car install thread. took me ages to re-read every page and find it for you. you're welcome Click here to enlarge I think from memory the A/R is 0.64
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    In case anyone missed them previously, here are the wheel specs.

    I also put together a comparison to stock and the stage 1 turbo.

    Compressor:

    Stock Compressor: Inducer - 45.8mm, Exducer - 62mm (65.3mm at extended tip)

    PURE Compressor Wheel: Inducer - 49.5mm, Exducer - 67mm (72.5mm at extended tip)

    Vargas Stage 2 compressor wheel: Inducer - 57mm, Exducer 76mm (78.5mm at extended tip)


    Turbine:

    Stock turbine: Inducer - 53mm, Exducer 47mm

    Vargas Stage 2 Turbine wheel: Inducer -60mm, Exducer - 55mm

    Comparison results:

    Vargas Stage 2 Compressor:
    Inducer - 11.2mm bigger than stock, 7.5mm bigger than stage 1
    Exducer - 14mm Bigger than stock, 9mm bigger than Stage 1

    Vargas Stage 2 Turbine:
    Inducer - 7mm bigger than stock and stage 1, Exducer - 8mm bigger than stock and stage 1.

    Also keep in mind, at 400 WHP the stock turbo is basically completely maxed out. For comparison sake Garrett rates their 53mm turbine wheel (same size as the stock turbine with their cast 60mm compressor at only 290 BHP. You jump up to the 53.85 turbine and the GTX wheels and you have the GTX2867 which has a bigger turbine than the stock unit and a similar compressor wheel to the stage 1 and you get a BHP rating of 475, that is in native garrett housings which are much larger and more free flowing than the stock housings housing are. We used a turbo that is rated at 640 BHP expecting it to see 500-550 WHP with the smaller housings due to the efficient DI motor. The stock turbo is able to make 400 WHP or 440BHP with such a small turbo also due it being such a efficient DI motor. Without upping the turbine size and just putting a bigger comp wheel, its going to be very hard to get much more power out of these things, flowing more up top is usually a by product of bigger A/R's and turbine wheels, not as much compressor wheels. Compressor wheels can increase the efficiency of the turbo and usually make the same air at lower shaft speeds which will help increase life, etc. I would be very curious to see if the stage 1 would provide any increases over stock as the turbine wheel size is basically maxed out already at current levels. But you never know until you try. Interested in seeing dynos.

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    DME is being updated now. Next week I'll take it back to the dyno for a glory run with timing maxed out... Will also dyno our stock turbo N55 with the new flash and see where it stands. The stock turbo car feels faster on the street but it's also lighter weight.
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    6 out of 6 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    DME is being updated now. Next week I'll take it back to the dyno for a glory run with timing maxed out... Will also dyno our stock turbo N55 with the new flash and see where it stands. The stock turbo car feels faster on the street but it's also lighter weight.
    whats the point if you're not going to work to address the actual issue with Tony as to why the turbos aren't holding boost? you're just trying to stir more s*** so you can see yet again in a 3rd thread "look, these turbos are barely making any more boost than stock, what a crap product". The whole point of fitting them on a TEST car is for R&D & to iron out issues like this. Not to say hey guys, somethings wrong, but instead of working to address it we'll just call it a piece of s*** and walk away

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    simple way to see if its hardware or tune.


    Pull the mac solenoid or oem boost solenoid off and put a hallman pro on it.

    If its hardware, the gate will still crack open and logs will be the same

    if its tune, the boost will ramp right up and hold it to redline ftw
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    simple way to see if its hardware or tune.


    Pull the mac solenoid or oem boost solenoid off and put a hallman pro on it.

    If its hardware, the gate will still crack open and logs will be the same

    if its tune, the boost will ramp right up and hold it to redline ftw

    MBC for the win.
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  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    simple way to see if its hardware or tune.
    Pull the mac solenoid or oem boost solenoid off and put a hallman pro on it.
    If its hardware, the gate will still crack open and logs will be the same
    if its tune, the boost will ramp right up and hold it to redline ftw
    Been there, done that, with mighty-vac. No boost change from chart above. Which was expected as I had already verified the tune, vacuum lines, etc, were delivering the full vacuum to the wastegate.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by curare Click here to enlarge
    whats the point if you're not going to work to address the actual issue with Tony as to why the turbos aren't holding boost? you're just trying to stir more s*** so you can see yet again in a 3rd thread "look, these turbos are barely making any more boost than stock, what a crap product". The whole point of fitting them on a TEST car is for R&D & to iron out issues like this. Not to say hey guys, somethings wrong, but instead of working to address it we'll just call it a piece of s*** and walk away
    This was sold as an actual final product and I expected it to work as such. Given the numerous other issues we have with Vargas I don't feel compelled to hide my displeasure with the performance of this thing. I'm tired of sweeping his crap under the rug and I'm sure anyone who laid out $4k for this thing as we did appreciates the candid data as to where this upgrade is right now. If anything this data which I'm providing on BMS' dime is going to greatly further advance development on this thing. If people feel negatively towards Vargas it's not due to my posts. I'm actually one of the last people on these forums to jump ship. I've been hearing for months about various problems and just looked the other way. Until I woke up to what was going on.

    That said the turbo is on the car, I'm stuck with it for a few weeks, and I previously committed to tuning it. I'm willing to do whatever Tony suggests I do with it. I tested a mightvac on the wastegate, I tested the DV disconnected, and I'm happy to test any other ideas while it's on there. Maybe when we add more timing it will magically jump up to 500rw. I don't think so, but until I do it, I can't be 100% sure. So we'll find out soon enough.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-06-2013 at 12:43 AM.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    100% PWM = 23" vacuum. I've been using JB products long enough to know if PWM is at 100% it's at full vacuum.

    Can the wastegate rod be manually adjusted on the N55 like on the N54?



    of course it can, I set it tighter than stock, don't forget this isn't an N54, but we did run into a similar issue on the stage 3 car in the beginning, we were telling the DME to give us 100 wgdc. It would show us it was, boost acted identical to this, you can really see if if you do a 6th gear pull and just roll into with a analog gauge boost builds and then if would actually drop back 2 psi or so then start to build again, I am not sure what D had to do to fix it, but I assume he had to dig into some other tables. The point is, just because the log shows 100% wgdc does not mean that actually what is happening, it's clear as day, boost builds and the gate is cracked open and the turbine slows, which in turn is killing the spool. At this point I really don't even care if Terry tries to figure it out. I would prefer to just have someone I can trust doing our product tuning, on such a new product.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'm willing to do whatever Tony suggests I do with it. I tested a mightvac on the wastegate, I tested the DV disconnected, and I'm happy to test any other ideas while it's on there. Maybe when we add more timing it will magically jump up to 500rw. I don't think so, but until I do it, I can't be 100% sure. So we'll find out soon enough.
    what do you suggest next tony?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Just for a comparison here is a log from our stock turbo 135i N55 from yesterday. Note how the OEM turbo spools quickly to 20psi and holds that to 4000rpm where boost drops off heavily. While the Vargas turbo spools slowly towards a peak around 5000rpm and drops off from there.
    Hi Terry.
    Nice log. If I look at it I can see that the THROTTLE is nearly instantly at 100%. On your VARGAS log it is @ 100% when you reach full boost which is "normal on a N55" as you've stated on N54tech.com. But your nice 135i log doesn't show this behaviour at all and spools like hell. What's the reason, Terry?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 335i-BB Click here to enlarge
    Hi Terry.
    Nice log. If I look at it I can see that the THROTTLE is nearly instantly at 100%. On your VARGAS log it is @ 100% when you reach full boost which is "normal on a N55" as you've stated on N54tech.com. But your nice 135i log doesn't show this behaviour at all and spools like hell. What's the reason, Terry?

    Terry's 135 is an n54 not an n55. If were both talking about the same 135 of course...
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Terry's 135 is an n54 not an n55. If were both talking about the same 135 of course...
    His post quite clearly states n55

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Terry's 135 is an n54 not an n55. If were both talking about the same 135 of course...
    It's his 135i DCT N55

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