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Thread: Load and Torque

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    JB4 could eliminate this issue if the load scaling was linear or well defined. If the JB4 simply chops the ECU PSI when it gets over a certain max level, this would be an issue. @Terry@BMS mind sharing how the JB4 handles load that would otherwise be off the map? I believe it targets 190 as a max load? Does it simply crop the ECU PSI down to show no more than 190, or is it scaled across the board somehow?
    I *think* that is essentially how the JB handles it, it “caps” boost at whatever given value and the load value corresponds to that, so the DME never sees load values that it wouldn’t know what to do with. I hope I’m wrong though…Terry?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    JB4 could eliminate this issue if the load scaling was linear or well defined. If the JB4 simply chops the ECU PSI when it gets over a certain max level, this would be an issue. @Terry@BMS mind sharing how the JB4 handles load that would otherwise be off the map? I believe it targets 190 as a max load? Does it simply crop the ECU PSI down to show no more than 190, or is it scaled across the board somehow?
    If you do run off a map then the flash just stays fixed at the last value. But you can drop your load values to 160 and still flatline as easily which means it isn't a table boundary issue. This is a complex issue and not one you are likely to reason your way out of. IMHO the only solution here is to grab your laptop, change something in the flash, log and evaluate the change, and repeat until you find a technique and values that have the desired effect.
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    You guys trying to squeeze an insignificant amount of power out of stock turbo FBO cars are headed down the road of popped motors IMHO. If you want more power than 415-460whp then upgrade your turbos. Ijs
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    You guys trying to squeeze an insignificant amount of power out of stock turbo FBO cars are headed down the road of popped motors IMHO. If you want more power than 415-460whp then upgrade your turbos. Ijs
    This. Although I don't see it killing engines(at least not in the short term) but it is killing turbos. No matter what people trying to parts/tunes tell you the stock turbos can only do so much. I mean based on what some people on here seem to believe if you just keep pushing timing/boost the stock engine has unlimited power potential lmao
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    Wrong thread.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    If you do run off a map then the flash just stays fixed at the last value. But you can drop your load values to 160 and still flatline as easily which means it isn't a table boundary issue. This is a complex issue and not one you are likely to reason your way out of. IMHO the only solution here is to grab your laptop, change something in the flash, log and evaluate the change, and repeat until you find a technique and values that have the desired effect.
    You're right, for flat line I am just going to have to play with it likely to get anywhere on the flash end.

    On the JB4 end though, when you drop your load values, the JB4 would respond by passing a lower than actual load through to the DME. I'd think this wouldn't make a difference if the load target was lower in the DME, since really what I think the car needs is for the DME to pull timing a little after a shift or NLS since the load would be spiking a little from the boost spike post shift. To illustrate this, I guess here is a nice fat flatline I did after an NLS:

    Click here to enlarge

    I think this is what is happening at least in the case above... The JB4 selects ECU PSI to be the lesser of DME BT or pre-boost and passes a load to the DME that is 3psi lower than actual. Timing yanks because 3psi less load has too aggressive timing for the real boost at this point. Am I interpreting this wrong?

    Here is another instance (no timing drop though):

    Click here to enlarge

    I would think a solution would be to allow the JB4 to send loads greater than 190 (or whatever value) back to the DME by putting a linear scale on loads above a certain number (say 150). Something like this:

    Click here to enlarge

    Now you can adjust fuel, timing, whatever to match the correct value at larger loads. When you over target the DME can see that and make sure it gives the correct timing for that load.

    I do realize though that this would cause many tables to be adjusted, some of which might not be accessible. That's why I suggested only load lines above 150 would receive the modifier. That would prevent tripping of most limits elsewhere I'd think since above 135 load or so is beyond a normal target anyway for the DME. Anything over 150 will fall in the existing range anyway.

    Another quasi solution for stock turbos only would be to simply pass ECU PSI as preboost up to 190 load or so. Either of these would require reducing the throttle closure response to overboost.

    Would love to know how the the normal flash guys define more map space and how load is calculated because it doesn't seem it could be pure MAF and RPM since gear does definitely change how much the engine is actually loaded.

    Sorry I went sort of deep here. Did I got full retard?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    This. Although I don't see it killing engines(at least not in the short term) but it is killing turbos. No matter what people trying to parts/tunes tell you the stock turbos can only do so much. I mean based on what some people on here seem to believe if you just keep pushing timing/boost the stock engine has unlimited power potential lmao
    I am running 17.5 psi and have been for the past couple years. Turbos have 90k on them and don't whine. I don't think the turbos are really at risk here anymore than they were before. The timing could be dangerous I guess. I saw 20whp more playing with timing (435->455whp), which isn't really insignificant. Now just got to get it stable in each gear and I am trying to get around an electronics related wall, which is what this thread is about. Maybe I am the only one learning here, but I figured if I am wondering these things maybe someone else is too.

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    17.5psi peak isn't what i'm talking about. That's pretty much been the defacto boost curve since Cobb started doing that. I'm talking more about the guys pushing stockers to 20psi and/or 16+ of timing. Physics is physics and running more timing doesn't mean more power if you're past MBT and people don't seem to want to accept it.

    As far as your post shift timing issue post a log and it may help to demonstrate exactly what you're describing, I haven't seen 6MT timing flat lines before.
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    @rudypoochris, are you sure that's a timing flat-line and not a timing correction?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @rudypoochris, are you sure that's a timing flat-line and not a timing correction?
    No, not at all. I'm pretty confident it is a correction. I was just showing how post shift load is significantly higher and can cause a flatline of sorts by going off map. I'll experiment this weekend to confirm loads in each scenario and go from there.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    You're right, for flat line I am just going to have to play with it likely to get anywhere on the flash end.
    ECU PSI is the boost as far as the DME is concerned. It clamps at DME BT. The setting FutureUseA can be used to determine how close it clamps. A setting of say 26 would clamp it at 1psi below DME BT, 52 2psi, and the 0 default is 1/3 psi. Making this value larger also dampens the JB4s over target throttle management programming.
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    Flat line fixed modifying Load to Torque Limit table. Thanks to @mfish http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...921#post520921

    Flash only, no tranmission flash, torque intervention enabled (un-checked)

    Before 3-5th gear
    Click here to enlarge

    After 3-5th gear
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    ECU PSI is the boost as far as the DME is concerned. It clamps at DME BT. The setting FutureUseA can be used to determine how close it clamps. A setting of say 26 would clamp it at 1psi below DME BT, 52 2psi, and the 0 default is 1/3 psi. Making this value larger also dampens the JB4s over target throttle management programming.
    There is no issue with him running the AT flatline fix map that you made, right? If its likely a similar torque limit that is causing the flatline (if it is a flatline) the AT flatline fix map should work just as good on a 6MT as an AT i would think. Assuming he has the ability to use the BBF..
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    Those maps were tested for ATs. I've not tested them for MTs. In theory it should work the same provided the fueling is properly setup. If wedge has the 3D fuel scalars working in BB it's a lot more practical then to try it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Those maps were tested for ATs. I've not tested them for MTs. In theory it should work the same provided the fueling is properly setup. If wedge has the 3D fuel scalars working in BB it's a lot more practical then to try it.
    I am running the 3D fuel scalar. Why does that make a difference?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    ECU PSI is the boost as far as the DME is concerned. It clamps at DME BT. The setting FutureUseA can be used to determine how close it clamps. A setting of say 26 would clamp it at 1psi below DME BT, 52 2psi, and the 0 default is 1/3 psi. Making this value larger also dampens the JB4s over target throttle management programming.
    Right, but in reality if DME BT is below the real pre-boost then ECU PSI would report a load value back to the DME below the actual load at that point in time. This would mainly affect timing in that the DME would be providing timing for a lower load than actual. I realize this is really only a limitation if you're going for the last nth or if you are getting a boost spike. Just something to think about because it could be solved rather elegantly by scaling load above a certain load line if it can't be adjusted in the DME.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    Flat line fixed modifying Load to Torque Limit table. Thanks to @mfish http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...921#post520921

    Flash only, no tranmission flash, torque intervention enabled (un-checked)

    Before 3-5th gear
    Click here to enlarge

    After 3-5th gear
    Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, I have seen that, but am a bit skeptical because that is the most obvious solution and I see Terry has changed those values before without success. Got a link to the datazap?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I am running the 3D fuel scalar. Why does that make a difference?
    Did someone really rip off Cobb's fuel scalar already?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, I have seen that, but am a bit skeptical because that is the most obvious solution and I see Terry has changed those values before without success. Got a link to the datazap?
    http://datazap.me/u/bimmer305/r10-fu...ar-4?1-7-16-22

    http://datazap.me/u/bimmer305/r16-fu...ar-3?1-7-16-22
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I am running the 3D fuel scalar. Why does that make a difference?
    Have you verified they actually work? I've not tested them yet. If so we can develop a lower load MT map. And revise the AT maps with a lower scalar during cruise which seems to improve gas mileage.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Have you verified they actually work? I've not tested them yet. If so we can develop a lower load MT map. And revise the AT maps with a lower scalar during cruise which seems to improve gas mileage.
    I will email you the XDF. Looked reasonable to me.

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    0 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Did someone really rip off Cobb's fuel scalar already?
    Geez... Lol. I get it, you like Cobb.

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    Thank you. I'll toy around with that parameter tonight I guess.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    Flat line fixed modifying Load to Torque Limit table. Thanks to @mfish http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...921#post520921

    Flash only, no tranmission flash, torque intervention enabled (un-checked)

    Before 3-5th gear
    Click here to enlarge

    After 3-5th gear
    Click here to enlarge
    Awesome. I'm glad to see that's working for you. I've learned a ton here and am more than happy to give something back. I'm no tuning genius but it was just a ton of trial and error of playing around with the various torque limiting maps to find the cause and effects. Make change in ATR, log, rinse repeat.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mfish Click here to enlarge
    Awesome. I'm glad to see that's working for you. I've learned a ton here and am more than happy to give something back. I'm no tuning genius but it was just a ton of trial and error of playing around with the various torque limiting maps to find the cause and effects. Make change in ATR, log, rinse repeat.
    Thanks for sharing. Click here to enlarge

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