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  1. #1
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    Yes, another fueling thread...

    Hey guys,

    Have couple questions and a couple thoughts after discussing the fueling issues with another friend is also an auto enthusiast. I'm also thinking about wanting to switch over to straight e85 in the future, so looking to find out what all I would need to do there, if fuel lines would all need to be replaced, what pumps you would recommend, etc....

    1) Where does the stock fuel system on pump gas only seem to fall flat? With a 255 inline LPFP upgrade.

    I'm trying to see what I will be able to do before upgrading the HPFP and rail. I know there seems to be little tid bits of ideas and improvements thrown around, but it's hit or miss and in about 1,000 different threads on a 100 different setups. My setup will be a custom Single Turbo kit. (in progress now)

    2) Ok, now lets add a dual 1.0mm nozzle meth kit to the mix...what kind of limits should I expect to see on 93 pump + meth?

    Now the ideas around upgrading the pump/rail

    1) What is the first limiting factor, the rail or pump? I know someone mentioned a slight modification to the rail may yield some improvements, but what are your thoughts?

    2) OK, now the HPFP, if I was to upgrade today, would probably go with the Vargas option. Has anyone done anything to try and fix the mid-range fueling issue or is it even a major concern to begin with?

    3) Has anyone tried increasing the voltage/power to the OEM HPFP (or Vargas for that matter) to increase pump output?

    @VargasTurboTech have you tried upping the voltage to the pump to get rid of that mid-range "lag" the pump seems to have? And what do you see the limitations of your pump/rail being using say straight e85?
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  2. #2
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    Obviously there’s a lot to discuss here, but as a starting point

    -People have successfully run straight E85 on a stock high pressure system, usually with two low pressure pumps running in parallel. The pump you run inline to the OE LPFP is your choice, of course. Now with ST load/fueling demands, maybe that is no longer the case.

    -There is no real HPFP solution available from a hardware standpoint. I don’t see that changing any time soon.

    -You can drill out the fuel rail a little bit to help with flow at onset, but that is on the margins in terms of overall benefits. I think there is some more info on that over on Terry’s forum.

    -If you run and tune for meth as fuel, that should be enough to keep trims from pegging on straight E85 with an in-series low pressure setup.

    What are the flex fuel guys running? I think just a booster pump, @Dmacc?
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  3. #3
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    It has been my finding with my mechanic doing my motor swap having two pumps next to each other that there is an inline mesh filter in the inlet of the HPFP that is removed on my upgraded pump and in both my other stock fuel pumps... that along with drilling out your rail will be $0 if you do it and will provide a flow increase. I am not sure what else is done with vtt upgraded hpfp but that is something will certainly increase flow.


    hope that helps...
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    The pump is mechanically driven so it is dependent on engine rpm. Since fuel demand increases quicker than engine rpm, the pump can't keep up. I think the pump controls flow with a valve that regulates incoming fuel, so increasing voltage wouldn't do anything because it should be completely open already. Plus its probably controlled via pwm and not voltage. My vote is on running a second pump like the diesel guys but I believe vargas said there is no extra space. Since you are going single turbo do you have anymore space on the exhaust side compared to stock? There has to be space to put the thing somewhere

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bdtsulev Click here to enlarge
    The pump is mechanically driven so it is dependent on engine rpm. Since fuel demand increases quicker than engine rpm, the pump can't keep up. I think the pump controls flow with a valve that regulates incoming fuel, so increasing voltage wouldn't do anything because it should be completely open already. Plus its probably controlled via pwm and not voltage. My vote is on running a second pump like the diesel guys but I believe vargas said there is no extra space. Since you are going single turbo do you have anymore space on the exhaust side compared to stock? There has to be space to put the thing somewhere
    probably less space...it's a larger turbo and more/larger piping but I'll be having to figure something out. I'm 6AT so of course transmission solution is first, then fuel, then we'll see what the motor can handle, I'm hoping 800whp, but I'm sure at that point it will onl be a matter of time till it needs a rebuild.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Hey guys,

    Have couple questions and a couple thoughts after discussing the fueling issues with another friend is also an auto enthusiast. I'm also thinking about wanting to switch over to straight e85 in the future, so looking to find out what all I would need to do there, if fuel lines would all need to be replaced, what pumps you would recommend, etc....

    1) Where does the stock fuel system on pump gas only seem to fall flat? With a 255 inline LPFP upgrade.

    I'm trying to see what I will be able to do before upgrading the HPFP and rail. I know there seems to be little tid bits of ideas and improvements thrown around, but it's hit or miss and in about 1,000 different threads on a 100 different setups. My setup will be a custom Single Turbo kit. (in progress now)

    2) Ok, now lets add a dual 1.0mm nozzle meth kit to the mix...what kind of limits should I expect to see on 93 pump + meth?

    Now the ideas around upgrading the pump/rail

    1) What is the first limiting factor, the rail or pump? I know someone mentioned a slight modification to the rail may yield some improvements, but what are your thoughts?

    2) OK, now the HPFP, if I was to upgrade today, would probably go with the Vargas option. Has anyone done anything to try and fix the mid-range fueling issue or is it even a major concern to begin with?

    3) Has anyone tried increasing the voltage/power to the OEM HPFP (or Vargas for that matter) to increase pump output?

    @VargasTurboTech have you tried upping the voltage to the pump to get rid of that mid-range "lag" the pump seems to have? And what do you see the limitations of your pump/rail being using say straight e85?
    Havent touched voltage and honestly. We have pretty much given up on the pump that is on the car now, we are either going to make a dual pump kit, or move into something else, we which we have a line on. Its slow going, we have too many irons in the fire right now.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Havent touched voltage and honestly. We have pretty much given up on the pump that is on the car now, we are either going to make a dual pump kit, or move into something else, we which we have a line on. Its slow going, we have too many irons in the fire right now.
    Yeah, a lot of irons...lol seems like your getting close to having a least a couple out of the flame though, which is great. I'm thinking second pump would be best, just have no idea how to go about fitting it and getting both to work together
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    Everybody hates the idea of port fueling. But just thought I'd throw that out there.

    If you run E85, have an efficient turbocharger in its efficiency range, and an upgraded FMIC... the DI doesn't really add much to your car. If you run pump 91 or 93, stock turbo's/hybrids, and a weak FMIC then port fuel is not for you and you really do need the DI.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Everybody hates the idea of port fueling. But just thought I'd throw that out there.

    If you run E85, have an efficient turbocharger in its efficiency range, and an upgraded FMIC... the DI doesn't really add much to your car. If you run pump 91 or 93, stock turbo's/hybrids, and a weak FMIC then port fuel is not for you and you really do need the DI.
    PI is a step backward IMO...

    I'll be running a larger single, decided against stage 2's. I'll be running the walbro 255 inline setup, just not sure how far that will take me. Looks like I may try taking off that screen on the HPFP and modify the inlet on the rail and see how much that holds for me.
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  10. #10
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Everybody hates the idea of port fueling. But just thought I'd throw that out there.

    If you run E85, have an efficient turbocharger in its efficiency range, and an upgraded FMIC... the DI doesn't really add much to your car. If you run pump 91 or 93, stock turbo's/hybrids, and a weak FMIC then port fuel is not for you and you really do need the DI.
    I agree with you. Everyone is against PI because they think two injection systems is a band-aid. Look at the BRZ/GT-86. It has both - it comes like that from the factory. Using both systems allows you to get pros of both types of injection while not forcing you to accept the cons of either.

    At all but high throttle angles the DI injectors will be the only ones functioning. You get the benefits of heat of enthalpy, better atomization, a more consistent mixture, more efficient use of fuel. At high throttle angles when the DI injectors can't keep up by themselves, you retain all of those benefits PLUS you get near limitless fuel and intake vale cleaning.

    I really suspect the last item is why Toyota and Subaru use both systems. There are horror stories from many different platforms using DI and having problems with carbon accumulation on the backs of the intake vales. This happens with Audi, BMW, Lexus (TOYOTA!!!), and probably others.
    Eppur si muove.

  11. #11
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    I do like the idea of the intake valve cleaning, I just don't now enough about it to setup the system, and how would you control it?
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    With the methanol adapter plate (which has PI capability as I understand it), anyone will have the option of running secondary PI via gas or methanol. We're all familliar with meth kits and it'll be an easy solution. It wasn't uncommon in the e46 community to tap the intake manifold and use 6 meth nozzles.

  13. #13
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    You can get the DI really far with the in line pump, especially if you use meth. Since you won't have low rpm stress you will probably be ok with just the stock system. DI is awesome but with good fuel and a good setup it's only a little better than PFI.

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