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  1. #1
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    Ignition timing failsafe

    Does anyone know under what conditions the DME defaults to the ignition failsafe table?

    I notice on some logs that timing can fall as low as 3-4 degrees at boost onset at low to midrange rpms and values that low are not in the main ignition table.

    Does the DME switch to the failsafe table under high load because I can clearly see those timing values in it.
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    I haven't found a clear answer on "when" the DME does it, but i have seen it do it. I generally mirror my ignition timing table main to the timing failsafe as well.
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    Holy moly that was fast........

    I don't think I even finished posting and you already replied! Click here to enlarge

    But that was exactly what I wanted to know. It's possible to change those values to mirror the main ignition table or at least bump them up a degree or two to play it safe.

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    Never found a time when that table is used. Probably if you disconnect a knock sensor, etc, then it would revert to those values.
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    Interesting......

    So where do you think the DME goes to get a timing value of 3-4 degrees at high load boost onset?

    Is there a specific timing table or is it just the main ignition table subjected to timing pull of 3 degrees that is knock induced?

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    @DCAFS, do you have a log? DME will cut timing if boost actual exceeds requested, which is not uncommon during throttle tip in (especially with the OFT/BBF).
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    @DCAFS, do you have a log? DME will cut timing if boost actual exceeds requested, which is not uncommon during throttle tip in (especially with the OFT/BBF).
    I am not running the OFT currently.....went back to just the procede.....but regardless same behaviour in both platforms.

    Here is a datalog where timing drops to 3.5 degrees just after full throttle is applied.

    Boost is actually a little undertarget at this point whereas after the shift, boost is about 2 psi overtarget (red square box) and timing seems to hold just fine.

    In another identical datalog the same day, I applied throttle more slowly and ended up with 7 degrees minimum at the same boost and same rpm.

    Seems that if I am aggresive in applying throttle then the timing drop will occur.

    Wondering if this is just a Load versus throttle position or just plain old knock activity?

    If it's an adjustment I can make to a table I would like to do so, but if it's knock retard then I guess it is what it is.

    In that case, I would probably have to reduce boost targets to avoid the knock retard and would probably be leaving some power on the table overall.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    Interesting......

    So where do you think the DME goes to get a timing value of 3-4 degrees at high load boost onset?

    Is there a specific timing table or is it just the main ignition table subjected to timing pull of 3 degrees that is knock induced?
    Your guess is as good as anyones. There are some timing to torque tables missing so it's a bit like trying to understand the universe looking only at the shadows cast on a wall.
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    @DCAFS, That smells like KR in my opinion.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Your guess is as good as anyones. There are some timing to torque tables missing so it's a bit like trying to understand the universe looking only at the shadows cast on a wall.
    Lol....so true!

    There are a lot of missing pieces so it's hard to understand the mechanics of what is going on.

    But this was an interesting exercise.

    I have to agree with Lulz in that it looks like knock retard.

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    Did you look at the timing spool table? At tip-in is when spool mode would likely be active.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    Did you look at the timing spool table? At tip-in is when spool mode would likely be active.
    His logs shows he was around 5k rpm, spool mode is only active < 2600 rpm.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    His logs shows he was around 5k rpm, spool mode is only active < 2600 rpm.
    Oh, good observation; I didn't look closely enough.

    Although, I'm still wondering if that spool mode max setting applies to all spool tables.

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    Here is the identical datalog I spoke of earlier except I applied throttle more gradually.

    At the same boost point (16 psi) and same rpm, timing stays nice and smooth and only drops to 7 degrees instead of 3.5 as it did previously.

    So that previous log looks like the classic knock event giving a 3-4 degree timing pull.

    I think the DME is over reacting though, because I can hold 7 degrees post-shift with no problem.....and you would think a lot more heat would have built up by then making knock more likely in a higher load gear. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    My timing does is consistently if I rev above 6300rpms. This only happened when I went flash-only. I posted this in the main ATR thread and Josh@Cobb acknowledged that he's seen this problem and doesn't have a fix yet.


    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...283#post473283

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...145#post474145
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  16. #16
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    My timing does is consistently if I rev above 6300rpms. This only happened when I went flash-only. I posted this in the main ATR thread and Josh@Cobb acknowledged that he's seen this problem and doesn't have a fix yet.


    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...283#post473283

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...145#post474145
    Interesting. Well, one fix would be to just stuff your normal timing values in that table. Click here to enlarge
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    Wound't it make sense that the ECU will use its failsafe tables when it detects some sort of a problem? ...say underboost, knock, overboost, bad VANOS, continuous misfires, insufficient fuel pressure...

    In the VW/AUDI world, the ECU will run its failsafe tables whenever a CEL is thrown for whatever reason. It basically sais: "Something is $#@!ed up, so I am going to run as safe as possible in order to prevent damage till my owner fixes the problem."
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by vasillalov Click here to enlarge
    Wound't it make sense that the ECU will use its failsafe tables when it detects some sort of a problem? ...say underboost, knock, overboost, bad VANOS, continuous misfires, insufficient fuel pressure...

    In the VW/AUDI world, the ECU will run its failsafe tables whenever a CEL is thrown for whatever reason. It basically sais: "Something is $#@!ed up, so I am going to run as safe as possible in order to prevent damage till my owner fixes the problem."
    It may not only be an indication of some sort of problem, but rather a torque reduction effort. AKA, $#@! you guys that want to make more power.
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    Like Terry says.....it's anyones guess.

    In my case it looks very much like classic knock retard rather than torque intervention.

    I had a closer look at the procede's ignition map in that boost/rpm range and found that it increases timing over stock by 2 degrees when switching over to the meth map.

    Easy enough for me to lower those values down a couple of degrees and see if the issue goes away.

    If it does, then I guess it's knock retard. If not, then must be torque intervention related to load from going full throttle.

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DCAFS Click here to enlarge
    Like Terry says.....it's anyones guess.

    In my case it looks very much like classic knock retard rather than torque intervention.

    I had a closer look at the procede's ignition map in that boost/rpm range and found that it increases timing over stock by 2 degrees when switching over to the meth map.

    Easy enough for me to lower those values down a couple of degrees and see if the issue goes away.

    If it does, then I guess it's knock retard. If not, then must be torque intervention related to load from going full throttle.

    Click here to enlarge
    Just a suggestion, but i would personally zero out ALL ignition advance by the Procede and let the flash handle that. It's been proven that CPS offsetting is like playing with fire. Just decrease boost on the non meth map.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    It's been proven that CPS offsetting is like playing with fire.
    By whom? How?

    I don't run timing through the procede, but I do rely on it to retard up to 8 degrees on my non-meth map. Just wondering where this info comes from....
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    Interestingly enough I just came across a log that appears to be cycling between the failsafe and main map. Tweaked the failsafe map to match the main map. We'll see how it goes.
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    Using the CPS to offset timing just isn't ideal, it throws injection events out of time thus making the DI systems advantages a little less pronounced, may muck up emissions a small bit, hurt long term fuel economy (although I doubt it's measureable day to day or week to week), that sort of thing. Also I think the DME will slightly account for the offset over time a few degrees, but that's not really a big deal. It's just another way to do things, but probably not the best way for a balls out tune, at least for adding timing.

    The only time I can think of where CPS offset is ideal would be for meth flow problems when low flow is detected. Otherwise it's not ideal, but it's just another way to do something. I don't think anyone has ever shown it to be a "bad" idea or dangerous, just not the best solution available. But hey, whatever works, and it does work so the rest is kinda splitting hairs.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Using the CPS to offset timing just isn't ideal, it throws injection events out of time thus making the DI systems advantages a little less pronounced, may muck up emissions a small bit, hurt long term fuel economy (although I doubt it's measureable day to day or week to week), that sort of thing. Also I think the DME will slightly account for the offset over time a few degrees, but that's not really a big deal. It's just another way to do things, but probably not the best way for a balls out tune, at least for adding timing.

    The only time I can think of where CPS offset is ideal would be for meth flow problems when low flow is detected. Otherwise it's not ideal, but it's just another way to do something. I don't think anyone has ever shown it to be a "bad" idea or dangerous, just not the best solution available. But hey, whatever works, and it does work so the rest is kinda splitting hairs.
    True, we were only able to really hit good consistent timing on meth by putting it on the flash and using CPS offsetting to pull additional off-meth timing out.
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