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  1. #26
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    So, where is tne rotrex map with same conditions? Oh, thats right, you dont comprehend full statements. Everything u just wrote proved everything ive been saying, and disproves other claims youve been making. Its wonderful how someone can argue A in one thread, then B in another, when they directly conflict each other and they dont even realize it

  2. #27
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    We don't need to post compressor maps, everyone can just look at dyno sheets, run against some "equal" powered Vortech powered cars, or ride/drive in opposing supercharged M3s to notice the difference. A car with the Vortech drives like an on/off switch that won't be "on power" until you go above 6500 RPMs, while a Rotrex powered car puts down the same HP, a much wider powerband, and TQ across the entire rev range that won't force you to constantly rev the $#@! out the motor. This explains how LM (on a lower power kit) was able to keep even and trap the same speed as a higher powered ESS kit.

    We know that the Rotrex 7-7.5 psi, Exhaust & Stock S65 is good for 625-640 BHP, about the same BHP the max power Vortech kits achieve (depending on available fuels). But Active (and I believe Evolve will upon request) feel comfortable running the Rotrex at 8-9 psi on a stock motor for a 675-700 BHP.

    Bottom line is that it's pretty clear that the Rotrex C38 is a significantly better supercharger for the S65, from both a drivability and performance standpoint. The Rotrex essentially highlights and accentuates the NA S65s power curve and drivability, just with an additional ~200+ WHP.
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  3. #28
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    I ran a car recently that makes 60% more power throughout the rev-range right until the last 1000rpm of our respective powerbands. And every time, once I got to revving I passed him from behind on every run & opened him a by a fair margin thereafter. In a racing situation I will always go from a dig or rolling in 1st gear or any gear but from 6500rpm. We are here to race, not to do a low rev lugging contest. I have a diesel for that.

    In a racing situation with DCT after the initial hit in whatever gear, you NEVER see 6500rpm again. Every gearchange at redline sees the revs drop from 8400rpm to over 7000rpm. So the racing powerband is effectively 7000-8400rpm. Whichever car has more average power in that 1400rpm powerband will win. Nothing else matters in a racing situation. Having a fatter whatever at 4000rpm makes no difference.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    We don't need to post compressor maps, everyone can just look at dyno sheets, run against some "equal" powered Vortech powered cars, or ride/drive in opposing supercharged M3s to notice the difference. A car with the Vortech drives like an on/off switch that won't be "on power" until you go above 6500 RPMs, while a Rotrex powered car puts down the same HP, a much wider powerband, and TQ across the entire rev range that won't force you to constantly rev the $#@! out the motor. This explains how LM (on a lower power kit) was able to keep even and trap the same speed as a higher powered ESS kit.

    We know that the Rotrex 7-7.5 psi, Exhaust & Stock S65 is good for 625-640 BHP, about the same BHP the max power Vortech kits achieve (depending on available fuels). But Active (and I believe Evolve will upon request) feel comfortable running the Rotrex at 8-9 psi on a stock motor for a 675-700 BHP.

    Bottom line is that it's pretty clear that the Rotrex C38 is a significantly better supercharger for the S65, from both a drivability and performance standpoint. The Rotrex essentially highlights and accentuates the NA S65s power curve and drivability, just with an additional ~200+ WHP.
    Rotrex seems the way to go for us FBO N54 guys switching over to a SC S65, but the next question is AA Stage 2 vs. Evolve 625.

    AA Stage 2

    C38-92 (3.5" Inlet)
    8psi
    640hp

    $12,800 - 10% = $11,520

    Evolve 625

    C38-91 (3.0" Inlet)
    7-7.5psi
    625hp

    $14,250

    A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?

    I'm torn because there's a local shop to me that's an AA authorized dealer and Undercover is all the way up in Philly and I can save a couple thousand on AA.

    Let's discuss Click here to enlarge
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    So, where is tne rotrex map with same conditions? Oh, thats right, you dont comprehend full statements. Everything u just wrote proved everything ive been saying, and disproves other claims youve been making. Its wonderful how someone can argue A in one thread, then B in another, when they directly conflict each other and they dont even realize it
    From the OP:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The main difference the Evolve kit offers is a Rotrex based supercharger kit which gives a different torque curve that is definitely a bit fatter in the mid range.
    Shortly afterward:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Second, what other simple minded people cant grasp, is that this setup delivers much more boost, much earlier
    Someone has some trouble with reading comprehension... big trouble with it actually. Try reading before baselessly criticizing when the point you are trying to make was already made.

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
    I ran a car recently that makes 60% more power throughout the rev-range right until the last 1000rpm of our respective powerbands. And every time, once I got to revving I passed him from behind on every run & opened him a by a fair margin thereafter. In a racing situation I will always go from a dig or rolling in 1st gear or any gear but from 6500rpm. We are here to race, not to do a low rev lugging contest. I have a diesel for that.
    Once moving and once you are shifting from redline and are dropping down after each shift to a higher RPM it can favor the setup with more power in the last 1000 rpm. There would be different speeds and gears that would favor each setup.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
    Every gearchange at redline sees the revs drop from 8400rpm to over 7000rpm. So the racing powerband is effectively 7000-8400rpm.
    Incorrect.

    Gear / Ratio / Max Speed / RPM drop on upshift
    1st 4.780 44
    2nd 2.933 71 5200
    3rd 2.153 97 6200
    4th 1.678 124 6500
    5th 1.390 150 6900
    6th 1.203 173 7300
    7th 1.000 208 7000

    It's after 5th gear you are over 7k on the shift.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?
    HONESTLY, you can't go wrong with either. Both utilize the Rotrex C38, Air/Air Intercooling, 8-Rib Pulleys, etc. The Evolve hardware def appears OEM-spec, super high quality, with the manifold and all the piping, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the quality/drivability of the tune or Evolve's customer service. BUT Active has a very established reputation in the BMW aftermarket scene and their not selling a shoddy product.


    I'd say drive both and make a decision from there.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    HONESTLY, you can't go wrong with either. Both utilize the Rotrex C38, Air/Air Intercooling, 8-Rib Pulleys, etc. The Evolve hardware def appears OEM-spec, super high quality, with the manifold and all the piping, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about the quality/drivability of the tune or Evolve's customer service. BUT Active has a very established reputation in the BMW aftermarket scene and their not selling a shoddy product.


    I'd say drive both and make a decision from there.
    Unfortunately, @LostMarine is the only one with an Evolve SC in the States right now Click here to enlarge

    But, one of my friends down here is about to pick up the AA Stage 3. Let's see how I feel about it once I get a chance to drive it.
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Unfortunately, @LostMarine is the only one with an Evolve SC in the States right now Click here to enlarge

    But, one of my friends down here is about to pick up the AA Stage 3. Let's see how I feel about it once I get a chance to drive it.
    Not true... There's an M3P member who has the Evolve kit, prob a few more floating around that aren't forum junkies, and I'm sure a lot more will start popping up after Xmas...... @bobS
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Not true... There's an M3P member who has the Evolve kit, prob a few more floating around that aren't forum junkies, and I'm sure a lot more will start popping up after Xmas...... @bobS
    Hopefully one near Texas.
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  11. #36
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    Ha I'm working on it... IMO the evolve kit is the way to go
    Click here to enlarge
    ESS 6XX kit

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by M&M Click here to enlarge
    I ran a car recently that makes 60% more power throughout the rev-range right until the last 1000rpm of our respective powerbands. And every time, once I got to revving I passed him from behind on every run & opened him a by a fair margin thereafter. In a racing situation I will always go from a dig or rolling in 1st gear or any gear but from 6500rpm. We are here to race, not to do a low rev lugging contest. I have a diesel for that.

    In a racing situation with DCT after the initial hit in whatever gear, you NEVER see 6500rpm again. Every gearchange at redline sees the revs drop from 8400rpm to over 7000rpm. So the racing powerband is effectively 7000-8400rpm. Whichever car has more average power in that 1400rpm powerband will win. Nothing else matters in a racing situation. Having a fatter whatever at 4000rpm makes no difference.
    Your comparing completely different cars, so saying the powerband of one to another makes no difference as each mwy be setup for its best. BUT, what would happen if YOU had more power throughout the powerband and consequently revved faster?

    Thats my point here

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Rotrex seems the way to go for us FBO N54 guys switching over to a SC S65, but the next question is AA Stage 2 vs. Evolve 625.

    AA Stage 2

    C38-92 (3.5" Inlet)
    8psi
    640hp

    $12,800 - 10% = $11,520

    Evolve 625

    C38-91 (3.0" Inlet)
    7-7.5psi
    625hp

    $14,250

    A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?

    I'm torn because there's a local shop to me that's an AA authorized dealer and Undercover is all the way up in Philly and I can save a couple thousand on AA.

    Let's discuss Click here to enlarge
    Im not going to talk in negatives since AA is a great option, and would be what I woukd have bought had evolve not come to market.

    Honestly though, Evolve quality is 1st place, there is no way around that. Picyires dont do it justice. You may not think its much, until you see them next to eachother and wish you had the finer parts.
    Next, 8 rib pulley system, CRUCIAL in using the rotrex as even weak vortechs will have belt slip, and the dont flow nearly as much as a rotrex down low.
    Belt slip brings 2 problems- 1 robs power, not the biggest issue, but your supercharging for a re ason, use every hp you can make.
    2- drivability. You will hate your car if it loses that precision throttle, trust me. It makes the car feel cheap and broken when it doesnt feel as smooth as NA

    Dont be like me and try to save a few pennies only having to do it over again and end up paying more..

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    From the OP:



    Shortly afterward:



    Someone has some trouble with reading comprehension... big trouble with it actually. Try reading before baselessly criticizing when the point you are trying to make was already made.
    But you said whichever runs more boost will win..I saidq wrong, and y8u started you uninformed rant.. so what happened there, you finally realized you dont need to run more boost, just have a better powerband with equal boost ?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    But you said whichever runs more boost will win..I saidq wrong, and y8u started you uninformed rant.. so what happened there, you finally realized you dont need to run more boost, just have a better powerband with equal boost ?
    If one setup is at 9 and the other is at 6 I guess I'm wrong and the 6 will win if it's a certain kit because, um, what?

    Perhaps the context you are looking for is equal boost which you just brought up now after looking, well, like you usually do. Which you still have not phrased correctly as equal is not exactly possible it depends on the rpm you are spinning the impeller to. So perhaps what you should say is something along the lines of stock motor with the Vortech in the 5-8 psi range and the Rotrex in the 5-8 range. That might narrow things down and you might actually have a point instead of making blanket generalizations which make absolutely no sense.

    And secondly, it won't always be equal boost because one blower is capable of ultimately flowing more air. Even if you have equal boost one impeller may be out of its efficiency range and spinning so hard its generating too much heat.

    It completely depends on the build, setup, and what ranges you are running the blowers to. There are pluses and minuses to each.

    So, it's you that are wrong. Yet again...

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Whomever runs more boost wins.
    Hi Sticky,

    I think you are joking here.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Hi Sticky,

    I think you are joking here.
    Why would I be?

    You guys run 10 psi and another guy runs 6 psi who will win? Situation reversed who will win?

    I think the context that is missing here is that on the stock motor the Rotrex C38-92 pairs better at boost levels suitable for the stock internals or pump gas.

    It depends on the setup. For a built motor application things change of course.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The V3si will have a CFM advantage at the very top depending of course how far you push the impeller. Anyone can look at the flow charts. Apparently one poster in this thread did not.
    The V3Si on paper has a very minor advantage however as I have pointed out in the past even on paper the correction factor of both published air flow charts are different.
    It's like comparing 2 stock M3#s on a dynojet but one is showing STD correction and the other SAE.
    Correct the graphs for the same conditions and it's roughly about the same.

    During our testing we didn't just sit on a Rotrex and hope for the best. No one had ever tried on of these blowers on an S65. Making a bracket and pulley system to try out a blower based on a hunch is not something companies will risk doing.

    Using a charge cooler setup which gives literally no pressure drop, we can achieve 14-15 PSi with the C38-91 at 93,000 rpm which is slightly over spinning and taking belt slip (you will always have some no matter what) that's probably running closer to 91,000.
    The airflow is almost IDENTICAL at high rpm and that's IF you want to run these blowers at their limit.

    Now, no one is running them at their limit on any of these kits are they. So therefore the Rotrex will match the Vortech where both are being under spun. To be quite frank, both blowers are too big! We could have used a C38-81 and achieved 600-625 HP easily. Yes... we already tried.

    The advantage here goes to the Rotrex as it will always produce more boost across the rpm range, especially in the midrange.

    Here's a comparison on our dyno of Vortech intercooled vs Rotrex Intercooled. Both running the same timing and AFR and very similar IAT starting points.

    Click here to enlarge

    It's the closest match I could get in terms of sizing up the pulleys to get equal boost but you get the idea.
    The Rotrex delivers more boost in the midrange and the power is therefore higher.
    The Vortech almost matches the top end boost of the Rotrex at the top and makes slightly less power.

    If I could have matched the peak boost exactly you can just take the Vortech graph and shift it up slightly and still you can see the big different in boost levels.

    We used the Rotrex for a reason. It's much much more difficult to work though! The supercharger pulleys are small and they have a high stop up ratio and therefore belt grip is absolutely essential. A Rotrex will fail to deliver much if the belt grip is poor and that is where this little rumour comes from where the Rotrex is not as good - incorrect setup.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    The V3Si on paper has a very minor advantage however as I have pointed out in the past even on paper the correction factor of both published air flow charts are different.
    It's like comparing 2 stock M3#s on a dynojet but one is showing STD correction and the other SAE.
    Correct the graphs for the same conditions and it's roughly about the same.
    I don't think the V3si really has any advantage until you start pushing these blowers toward their limit.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    The airflow is almost IDENTICAL at high rpm and that's IF you want to run these blowers at their limit.
    According to this it works to about 1100 cfm:

    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Now, no one is running them at their limit on any of these kits are they.
    That's my point.

    Let's say you are at 6 psi and the other guy wants to run 7 psi. Well then you run 7 psi. Then he runs 8 psi. And so on so forth. Whomever pushes their blower the hardest ultimately wins.

    If you keep things at a nominal level the car with the most area under the curve wins.

    Things can go back and forth for a while as guys change pulleys, right?

    So people should focus more on the driveability, tune, and quality of the components as you can always change a pulley just for outright raw peak power.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    We used the Rotrex for a reason. It's much much more difficult to work though! The supercharger pulleys are small and they have a high stop up ratio and therefore belt grip is absolutely essential. A Rotrex will fail to deliver much if the belt grip is poor and that is where this little rumour comes from where the Rotrex is not as good - incorrect setup.
    I strongly agree and the impeller sure seems to deliver more boost down low much more quickly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Rotrex seems the way to go for us FBO N54 guys switching over to a SC S65, but the next question is AA Stage 2 vs. Evolve 625.

    AA Stage 2

    C38-92 (3.5" Inlet)
    8psi
    640hp

    $12,800 - 10% = $11,520

    Evolve 625

    C38-91 (3.0" Inlet)
    7-7.5psi
    625hp

    $14,250

    A lot of people have been praising Evolve's build quality, but AA's doesn't look too shabby either. What are the biggest differences between these two kits that set them apart from each other?

    I'm torn because there's a local shop to me that's an AA authorized dealer and Undercover is all the way up in Philly and I can save a couple thousand on AA.

    Let's discuss Click here to enlarge
    The biggest differences between the Evolve and AA Rotrex kits:

    - Evolve uses the existing pulley positions but converts to 8 Rib. AA extends the pulley further out and uses an independent drive. Evolve harder to fit (1 hour more) but there is less load on the crank.
    - FMIC majorly different routing. Evolve has a very short path going through the front panel without cutting. AA takes more conventional tube route but major major cutting is required to many parts. Clearly they thought (and rightly so in our opinion) that doing this for an FMIC setup was well worth it.
    - Air intake system majorly different. Evolve uses complex CAD designed intake running air filter in the lower air duct (high up). AA uses one on the back of the blower and makes a heat surround with a cold air feed.
    - FMIC setup vastly different, Evolve unit is very large, does create a higher pressure drop but compensates with excellent cooling capabilities.
    - AA uses a 92 trim housing vs Evolve 91. The bigger housing allows for a larger inlet but this makes no difference at all.
    - AA used 3 atmospheric BOV's. Evolve uses two recirculating
    - AA plenum cast - Evolve plenum CNC machined with internal deflectors to direct air equally accross cylinders to ensure no one cylinder has more air than the other.
    - AA uses longer velocity stacks than Evolve which uses shorter ones.

    These are the main differences. AA feel free to comment in case I have made any incorrect statements.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    AA uses a 92 trim housing vs Evolve 91. The bigger housing allows for a larger inlet but this makes no difference at all.
    From what I read it's 3.5 inch versus 3.0 inch just on the inlet which at these boost levels is not a point of restriction.

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    Sticky - I see your which angle you said more boost wins now.

    Looks like we all agree there.

    Take any of these blowers close to their limit on a stock engine and you will see only catastrophic results.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Sticky - I see your which angle you said more boost wins now.

    Looks like we all agree there.
    Exactly.

    If one guy loses he changes a pulley. The other guy loses he change a pulley. They can keep this game going until an engine lets go.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    Take any of these blowers close to their limit on a stock engine and you will see only catastrophic results.
    Yep.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    From what I read it's 3.5 inch versus 3.0 inch just on the inlet which at these boost levels is not a point of restriction.
    It makes no difference even at the limit and beyond still. Already tested it.
    The 92 rear housing can be fitted to the 91 and vica versa.
    The 92 housing can help quite a bit IF there is restricted space for other inlets and depending on the angle and placement they can cause turbulence.
    However, we don't have that issue and therefore do not need the 92.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by evolve Click here to enlarge
    It makes no difference even at the limit and beyond still. Already tested it.
    The 92 rear housing can be fitted to the 91 and vica versa.
    The 92 housing can help quite a bit IF there is restricted space for other inlets and depending on the angle and placement they can cause turbulence.
    However, we don't have that issue and therefore do not need the 92.
    I see. I never really understood the point of the 92 then.

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