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  1. #101
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    maybe, yeah... i mean, they've made good money on MS3 and VAG platforms, and there's obviously good money here... tens of people MINIMUM who would buy their product straight up on release given proof of effective work and solving the problems present, and at those insane prices listed, there would be a LOT of profit in there for them... if they could get a product out, they'd make bank.


    The only reason Tony's HPFP upgrade hasn't flown out the door is it's not good for the stock housing twins with their bulk mid range torque, and still needs meth, so it's not so much worth the effort Click here to enlarge
    I assume that is because the pump is not spinning fast enough in the 0-4k or so rpm range but up top it gets up to speed and can meet the fueling demands? So someone needs to figure out how to fix a 2spd transmission to the pump to spin it as fast as it spins at high rpm down low, then taper the speed off progressively as rpm climbs.

  2. #102
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    My thinking on this is honestly the simpler the better. Run an injector in the cold side piping or TB spacer that sprays based on boost and let the DI system handle the fuel trims between banks(It is basically meth injection but if the show is being ran by a quality dedicated fuel injection controller then there really shouldn't be any problems) T off of a LPFP line and run a return line to the tank and call it a day. I'm thinking something like a megasquirt setup would be a good place to start with this.
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  3. #103
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by aflatau Click here to enlarge
    lol - not to far from me. Bring your little m3 on out Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Come on down to Florida, we'll see how fast that M3 is! Click here to enlarge
    come to maryland, ill show you Click here to enlarge

  4. #104
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    My thinking on this is honestly the simpler the better. Run an injector in the cold side piping or TB spacer that sprays based on boost and let the DI system handle the fuel trims between banks(It is basically meth injection but if the show is being ran by a quality dedicated fuel injection controller then there really shouldn't be any problems) T off of a LPFP line and run a return line to the tank and call it a day. I'm thinking something like a megasquirt setup would be a good place to start with this.
    Where the complications come from is our damn 3 tooth crank sensor. Very few systems can read it without developing custom firmware, like PROefi had to do.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

    Click here to enlarge

  5. #105
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Where the complications come from is our damn 3 tooth crank sensor. Very few systems can read it without developing custom firmware, like PROefi had to do.
    It's just a matter of someone actually putting in the time to change the firmware. It wouldn't be too difficult, but it does require a person to invest some time. The uniqueness of the crank sensor is not really a big deterrent, if someone is willing to invest a little time.

    The Megasquirt firmware is open source. It just needs updated for our engine.
    Eppur si muove.

  6. #106
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Where the complications come from is our damn 3 tooth crank sensor. Very few systems can read it without developing custom firmware, like PROefi had to do.
    Would you really need it to reference RPM? How about mapping injector PWM based simply on MAP? 0% IDC until ~15psi and then ramp up fueling as the boost comes on?
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  7. #107
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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No

    HPFP dismantled

    all explanation here are based on assumption and logic. Long story short my HPFP failed, car out of warranty so decide to change it at home. Then I took the failed one and dismantled just to see why there is failer and in which part it fails. the pictures is from HPFP marked with Alpha 2, new one marked with Alpha 5 so maybe there is changes in the design.

    here is the main parts as i called them Click here to enlarge pump rotor, pump body and High pressure/low pressure sensor.

    Click here to enlarge

    the reason i call it HP/LP pressure sensor because pump inlet and outlet are flowing to the sensor in same time but the o-ring is keeping them separated all times, clearly you can see oring and backup are failed, from the shape of the cut it must be debris.

    Click here to enlarge

    the pump body design is based on Fixed Displacement Piston, check this clip it will give you idea how it works



    our HPFP are the same there are 3 pistons pushed down by the rotor to send the fuel from LP chamber to HP outlet, notice the rotor lift side hig, right side low.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    maybe this has been addressed before but here is my thoughts on how to upgrade stock HPFP.

    - upgrade seals on HP/LP sensor I would recommend Green tweed T Rings, we used them in the oilfield and they can stand harsh environment
    - have better filter in pump inlet, btw there is one in each pump.
    - machined the Low pressure chamber so they can accommodate more fuel. if not possible then;
    - machined the pistons bore to accommodate bigger pistons which will results in higher flow.

    thanks for reading !!

  8. #108
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    @Oilphase please read the 2007 Engine Management pdf here:

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...007-Manuals%29

    Particularly pages 26 and 27.
    Eppur si muove.

  9. #109
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    My thinking on this is honestly the simpler the better. Run an injector in the cold side piping or TB spacer that sprays based on boost and let the DI system handle the fuel trims between banks(It is basically meth injection but if the show is being ran by a quality dedicated fuel injection controller then there really shouldn't be any problems) T off of a LPFP line and run a return line to the tank and call it a day. I'm thinking something like a megasquirt setup would be a good place to start with this.
    You prevent the injector failure issue this way but also open yourself up to distribution issues...
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  10. #110
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You prevent the injector failure issue this way but also open yourself up to distribution issues...
    I agree. There's no way to have your cake and eat it too lol. We pretty much have three different paths here:

    Upgrading the DI system- which is something that people have been looking at for 3-4 years now and Tony is the only one to actually get anywhere with it.

    TPI- which offers fuel mixture/distribution benefits but comes at the price of added complexity and the more parts the more points of failure

    TBI- which presents distribution issues but is minimally complicated.

    I honestly feel like distribution issue are more of a discussion point than they pose serious engine damage risk. I mean companies like Holly make TBI injection kits for old school small and big blocks that are making a $#@! load more power than we're likely to see or all the cars out there running freaking carburetors. We may need to start running half a point richer(or more to start with) AFRs to help prevent running a single cylinder lean but for the average Joe doing a DIY it makes the most sense.
    Click here to enlarge
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  11. #111
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    I think that a sprocket change on the hpfp will be the way to go. Its really not that hard to change it. There is a freeze plug in front of it remove that remove the bolt which holds it in put the new sprocket into place replace freeze plug and re tension the chain. You would have to work out the gearing of the pump to allow it to flow as much as the vargas pump produces up top but now spins that much in the mid range so say have it spin the speed it would at 6000rpm but now it spins that fast at 4000rpm. With this kind of solution it would give more hp/fuel available for both the stock pump and upgraded pumps. The only problems i see is that if you made the new sprocket too small then you would have to see if the tensioner could absorb that extra slack and if no you would have to run a smaller chain which would be a pain. Also that sprocket turns the vacuum pump which means you would just have more brake boost which would just make for lighter pedal feel and the last issue would be spinning the hpfp itself too fast. I honestly dont think it would be an issue on stock red line however it could start being a problem in the future when people start using cams with upgraded valvetrain revving higher than stock
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

  12. #112
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    I agree. There's no way to have your cake and eat it too lol. We pretty much have three different paths here:

    Upgrading the DI system- which is something that people have been looking at for 3-4 years now and Tony is the only one to actually get anywhere with it.

    TPI- which offers fuel mixture/distribution benefits but comes at the price of added complexity and the more parts the more points of failure

    TBI- which presents distribution issues but is minimally complicated.

    I honestly feel like distribution issue are more of a discussion point than they pose serious engine damage risk. I mean companies like Holly make TBI injection kits for old school small and big blocks that are making a $#@! load more power than we're likely to see or all the cars out there running freaking carburetors. We may need to start running half a point richer(or more to start with) AFRs to help prevent running a single cylinder lean but for the average Joe doing a DIY it makes the most sense.

    Well, if someone would step up and go down to van nuys for a couple hours and let a shop take measurements we can get a TB spacer plate.
    Click here to enlarge
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  13. #113
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Well, if someone would step up and go down to van nuys for a couple hours and let a shop take measurements we can get a TB spacer plate.
    We don't even need to do that. Take an AFE spacer, drill it and install a fuel injector bung.
    Click here to enlarge
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  14. #114
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    We don't even need to do that. Take an AFE spacer, drill it and install a fuel injector bung.
    You also need a fuel rail, and a controller. Both of which are already in place by this shop.
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  15. #115
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    Here is an email i just got back from hpfpupgrade.com.

    My inquiry:

    Hello.

    I am inquiring about the stage 2 HPFP upgrade for the bmw N54 engine. Is this a proven solution for fueling issues over the stock equipment? Another vendor that I know of has an upgrade that cannot keep up with the fueling demands for high mid range torque, but as the RPM climbs and and the pump spins faster it is able to catch up to the demands. It has been shown to work at over 700whp. Do you have any supplemental data showing the performance of your stage 2 HPFP upgrade? If so, I am certain that a fairly large group of people at BimmerBoost.com would be interested in this product. If you do indeed have a solution for the high midrange fueling demand that this engine produces then I recommend becoming a sponsor of BimmerBoost.com

    Thanks,
    Derek


    Their response:

    We have a solution in testing stages right now. It will address the flow issues that Vargas Turbos pumps don't. We have upgraded the pistons inside of the pump but need to verify that the pump can take the additional flow. Should have a working solution before the end of the year.


    Thanks,


    John

    Hopefully this is not smoke blowing and a competitive solution. Time will tell.





  16. #116
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    I mean I honestly hope for the best. Let's stay positive. I'm not thrilled about a mention of Vargas in the manner it was but a solution is beneficial for everyone.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I mean I honestly hope for the best. Let's stay positive. I'm not thrilled about a mention of Vargas in the manner it was but a solution is beneficial for everyone.
    I was not trying to attack vargas by any means. It was simply an objective comment to see if their pump was going to address this issue. they could have simply said "the other pumps" though. On the other hand, isnt that what this is about? competition to drive progress?

  18. #118
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DFM Click here to enlarge
    I was not trying to attack vargas by any means. It was simply an objective comment to see if their pump was going to address this issue. they could have simply said "the other pumps" though. On the other hand, isnt that what this is about? competition to drive progress?
    I was not referring to you. Yes, exactly, phrased a little differently as we all need to get along here.

    It is competition regardless, also correct.

  19. #119
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    Its all good guys, by this point it is know that even with the modifications we lose flow on stock frames in the mid range due to the large torque spike. On large twins or a single it is masked as the turbos have just spooled coming through that section and full tq comes on later. We have a pretty serious inquiry into a company and I am about to spend some money on testing some different stuff. We will see what happens

  20. #120
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Its all good guys, by this point it is know that even with the modifications we lose flow on stock frames in the mid range due to the large torque spike. On large twins or a single it is masked as the turbos have just spooled coming through that section and full tq comes on later. We have a pretty serious inquiry into a company and I am about to spend some money on testing some different stuff. We will see what happens
    good call.

    on my car at 25-27psi with meth im fine at the spool up at 44-4600rpm, but without meth i have to drop boost to around 24psi or go back to a bleeder style MBC which hits boost late. I like the Hallman and meth 100oct combo Car is WICKED but the tranny slipped within a week or so of adding the hallman and meth LOLOL its all good car is gonna be retarded fast with the 4l80e
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

  21. #121
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    I think any additional injection setup should have a second system. Whether you turn our current system into a surge tank with two lines out or something else is up to you, but a T I don't think is a good idea for big power, our stock lines are already kinda small.

    For controlling it there's tons of options. Someone could make a crank sensor translator, you could run some controllers off a pwm signal from the jb4, there's options. PFI and TBI would both be simple to implement, just nobody has taken the challenge is all. The tools are already out there, if somebody wanted to do this they 100% could, so I presume that this fuel issue really isn't such an issue after all. People are thus far content with their power levels and meth I guess.

  22. #122
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    I think the TBI will be the product most sold once people find out/realize that distribution is not an issue, and that you don't have dangerous situations like one port clogging. If it goes out, it will be seen across the board. Distribution issues can be handled bank by bank me thinks. Also, I think that a meth tank/fuel tank combo in the trunk would be pretty sweet. Unless someone comes up with a CLEAN way to put it in the tank, in that case, that would probably be the slicker setup although a second tank would be easier to install I'd say. But hey, someone needs to just do it. Supplemental will be here for a while IMO.
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    I think you will have distributions issues and I think there is absolutely no reason to go TBI or even SFI unless you want cleaner valves. What we need is solid 3000psi rail pressure which has been solved countless times with hydraulics, diesels, and even on other GDI platforms. The solutions are out there, it just needs to be connected to this platform. Realistically that isn't going to happen until there is a significant need. Right now the few people who would be needing it (hybrid twins) are already maxing out their turbos and need the meth for octane anyway. You would be surprised how quickly this "big problem" goes away once there are actual kits out there demanding the flow to run. Right now we have a bunch of people who want the upgraded pump, but don't need it enough to drive the solution.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I think you will have distributions issues and I think there is absolutely no reason to go TBI or even SFI unless you want cleaner valves. What we need is solid 3000psi rail pressure which has been solved countless times with hydraulics, diesels, and even on other GDI platforms. The solutions are out there, it just needs to be connected to this platform. Realistically that isn't going to happen until there is a significant need. Right now the few people who would be needing it (hybrid twins) are already maxing out their turbos and need the meth for octane anyway. You would be surprised how quickly this "big problem" goes away once there are actual kits out there demanding the flow to run. Right now we have a bunch of people who want the upgraded pump, but don't need it enough to drive the solution.
    The issue is those platforms you mention have a different style of HPFP. The one in the N54 is not a cam driven pump, it is an axial piston pump. Not saying it cant happen, its just going to require a different approach than the other DI fuel systems already developed. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DFM Click here to enlarge
    The issue is those platforms you mention have a different style of HPFP. The one in the N54 is not a cam driven pump, it is an axial piston pump. Not saying it cant happen, its just going to require a different approach than the other DI fuel systems already developed. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
    They're all shaft driven. Its just adaptor brackets, different sprockets, piston bore changes, run it off a belt, etc. My point was that there isn't a physical reason we can't solve this relatively easily. I m confident it will be solved when the first kits that need it are out. We are still reliant on meth for octane in most situations that you would need more hpfp, so for a large part the hpfp upgrade is a want not a need right now. Not amreson to stop developing on it, but stuff like beefing up the auto are much more important.

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