Close

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 39
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    262
    Rep Points
    161.8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2


    Yes Reputation No

    Unbiased for tune - Upgraded Turbos - Best way to document upgrade results?

    This may seem like an easy question. However, I thought it might be relevant for people that are upgrading their turbos and want to ACCURATELY document delta changes in dyno numbers.

    I'm looking for feedback from all tuning camps and all turbo upgrade manufacturers.

    We need to do away with tuning bias and establish a way of grading turbo upgrades with regard to each tune's capabilities.

    So let's come up with a few mutually endorsed methods from all of the tuners and turbo manufacturers to do this the right way, sound good?

    This will HELP everyone that wants to get an upgrade as well as choose the appropriate tune / and, possibly the best supplemental upgrades (meth / nitrous, etc.) (Hopefully fueling later!!!_)

    So, Bottom line, how can those that upgrade their turbos stick to a recipe that documents accurate before and after numbers for their prospective car? Do you guys think that it is possible that the same test cars can be either re=piggied or flashed to show the optimal tuning complement at the time of dyno? This might be too much to ask...not sure.

    If we can collectively come up with something that all tuners / turbo upgrade manufacturers agree is a fair playing field I think a lot of people in the future will benefit from the data.

    Let's here some ideas, please keep this thread flame free (if possible) - thx.
    Last edited by encinitas; 09-26-2010 at 02:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    116
    Rep Points
    67.4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Personally, I would be most interested in seeing charts from the same dyno, same dyno fans, same vechicle, same supporting mods (including downpipes, intercooler, meth mix and flow rate, fuel, intake, and exhaust) with the same boost targets on the tune.

    A 60-130 vbox run would also be a welcome alternative to a dyno. In my opinion 60-130 is more indicative of real world driving than any dyno.

    Say a 19 psig + meth stock vs. 19 psig + meth on upgraded turbos.

    The biggest questions I have are how:

    1. The larger compressor wheels increase efficiency and lower IATs in the upper rpm range where peak power occurs
    2. The modified turbine reduces engine backpressure and allows better engine breathing for more power

    I think a apples to apples run with the same tuning boost targets would be the best way to see what the upgraded turbos are really doing to improve performance. The tune may need some other modifications in boost control PID gain etc. but the setpoints should be the same.

    Once that is laid down, higher boost targets would be welcome as well up to the fuel limitations of the stock fuel system.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    hhmm.. i may have some info i can post up in a few..

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,483
    Rep Points
    32,174.3
    Mentioned
    2112 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    hhmm.. i may have some info i can post up in a few..
    Well please do.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    610
    Rep Points
    343.0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    4


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    Personally, I would be most interested in seeing charts from the same dyno, same dyno fans, same vechicle, same supporting mods (including downpipes, intercooler, meth mix and flow rate, fuel, intake, and exhaust) with the same boost targets on the tune.

    A 60-130 vbox run would also be a welcome alternative to a dyno. In my opinion 60-130 is more indicative of real world driving than any dyno.

    Say a 19 psig + meth stock vs. 19 psig + meth on upgraded turbos.

    The biggest questions I have are how:

    1. The larger compressor wheels increase efficiency and lower IATs in the upper rpm range where peak power occurs
    2. The modified turbine reduces engine backpressure and allows better engine breathing for more power

    I think a apples to apples run with the same tuning boost targets would be the best way to see what the upgraded turbos are really doing to improve performance. The tune may need some other modifications in boost control PID gain etc. but the setpoints should be the same.

    Once that is laid down, higher boost targets would be welcome as well up to the fuel limitations of the stock fuel system.
    Well said. Click here to enlarge
    08 E92 M3 - DCT
    Bolt Ons - Best ET 11.88 Best Trap Speed 119.8 MPH
    60-130 MPH (3 shifts) 10.71s
    Gintani Stage 2+ Supercharger 60-130MPH (3 shifts) 7.06s
    11.45 @ 131.6 MPH
    579WHP @9.3psi

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Downey, Ca
    Posts
    2,066
    Rep Points
    2,787.2
    Mentioned
    41 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    28


    Yes Reputation No
    Encinitas
    Did you ever dyno with either tune?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    we are already at the fuel limits, hence the meth-aid

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,483
    Rep Points
    32,174.3
    Mentioned
    2112 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    we are already at the fuel limits, hence the meth-aid
    That is potentially worrisome.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    116
    Rep Points
    67.4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That is potentially worrisome.
    I'm pretty impressed that you can get around 500 crank HP on the stock fuel system. That's about 67% over stock power!

    Lots of other cars need new pumps/injectors for any major power increase over maybe 15-20% or so.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,483
    Rep Points
    32,174.3
    Mentioned
    2112 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    I'm pretty impressed that you can get around 500 crank HP on the stock fuel system. That's about 67% over stock power!

    Lots of other cars need new pumps/injectors for any major power increase over maybe 15-20% or so.
    BMW tends to leave a pretty nice fueling cushion.

    It is a nice gain on the fuel system but starting to need meth so supplement fuel because the injectors are maxed can lead to problems.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That is potentially worrisome.

    yes, im well aware of this..
    patiently waiting..

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    262
    Rep Points
    161.8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlargeThanks for the great input Doug. I appreciate it man.

    I will have to get on a dyno soon with the JB3 / Stock turbos and bolt ons /meth.

    Most people are interested in just Delta changes, Correct? So this could happen reliably on a dynojet or a mustang. Which would the community largely prefer?

    As for the 60-130 vbox runs..that would be another good thing to document. I actually started this thread after reading Lostmarine's advice on seeing what the car can do before the upgrade.

    FWIW, It would be great if there is a friendly local v4 proceed guy to lend the tune for the cause (I have nothing but respect for the tune itself). Again, not sure if this is possible - and I still need to get my car back from the shop - we have time.

    It would just be cool to mainly shed light on the turbo's vs. the tunes. I remember a thread on e90 people where people were comparing FMIC's in a great thread - they had to go by strict criteria (ambient temps, etc, etc) so that the data wasn't scewed. So if any of us choose to do something like this and post up results. It would be nice to have as many of the "You should have done it this way and not that way" type of issues addressed beforehand.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    119,483
    Rep Points
    32,174.3
    Mentioned
    2112 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    322


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    Most people are interested in just Delta changes, Correct? So this could happen reliably on a dynojet or a mustang. Which would the community largely prefer?
    Delta is most important but I think dynojet will provide the best number to compare against the largest sample size. Nothing wrong with a Mustang, but I would say go with a dynojet if you can.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    262
    Rep Points
    161.8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2



    Yes Reputation No
    Sounds good.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Stockholm
    Posts
    1,528
    Rep Points
    1,177.6
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    12


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I have a lot of data on my car, as soon as i can dyno it and do some more vbox runs i will post it.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    well, you could always compare "themyst"s DJ dyno over on N54 to my own posted here.. both have boost logs. only difference is that he has a baseline of 295 w/93 and stock turbo's and mine is 294/racefuel and RB's, both of us fully bolted. if you follow the different boost curves from each of the logs you can get a pretty clear idea of how much more i am making, throughout the band, and definatley peak. i peaked @ 20psi for 493 and "502" @ 21psi. where as he peaked @ 424 @ 18.5 psi, even though i think its more like 19.5 psi as per the log itself..

    also, both of ours are graphed in mph, and i am AT and he is MT, so you see a bit of the difference there as well..

    I was waiting to see if he could get me the drf file and i would over lay our runs together, but he cannot get it..

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    116
    Rep Points
    67.4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    LostMarine, have you done any runs on 93+meth rather than race gas? I remember reading somewhere that a user with upgraded turbos was pushing about 450rwhp before fueling became a concern. Up around 500rwhp with racegas, as your results agree with.

    For most people's purposes, it looks like gains are limited to ~25rwhp until a EFI/DI setup can be engineered to run effectively and safely.

    TheMyst's 93+100%meth dyno is a good benchmark. I'd love to see a upgraded turbo engine on the same 93+100%meth...
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    im not following? i used meth as well.

    i dont see the correlations between racegas helping with the fueling as opposed to pump/93/meth. stockers w/racegas alone i believe have croseed the mid 4xx hp mark as well.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    116
    Rep Points
    67.4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    im not following? i used meth as well.

    i dont see the correlations between racegas helping with the fueling as opposed to pump/93/meth. stockers w/racegas alone i believe have croseed the mid 4xx hp mark as well.
    The advantage of race gas would be advanced timing through higher octane. Both pump and race gas have their fueling limitiations. Oxygenated race gas even more so since the stoichiometric ratio is lower than pump gas so you need more fuel flow for a given air flow.

    Just as it wouldn't be fair to compare a pump gas dyno vs. a race gas dyno on a stock turbo car, I think the same applies when comparing stock to upgraded turbos.
    Last edited by Doug007; 09-28-2010 at 01:50 PM.
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Doug007 Click here to enlarge
    The advantage of race gas would be advanced timing through higher octane. Both pump and race gas have their fueling limitiations. Oxygenated race gas even more so since the stoichiometric ratio is lower than pump gas so you need more fuel flow for a given air flow.

    Just as it wouldn't be fair to compare a pump gas dyno vs. a race gas dyno on a stock turbo car, I think the same applies when comparing stock to upgraded turbos.
    ok, so your only referring to timing on the race fuel vs pump/meth? I was nt sure if there was something else i was missing.

    I have seen the exact same timng curves @ 18/19 psi on 93/meth as i have with racefuel. Even The Myst states himself, that timing was looking good enough at his psi to go higher, he just chose not to.
    i have not yet done it @ 20/21psi w/ 93/meth, which i dont/wont care to do. So as its stands right now, from my POV, that its quite a bit more than just 25hp regardless of what fuel.

    now as far as pushing past the current #'s, we are using the meth itself as fuel when we get to those higher PSI's. which is definatly not ideal, but currentl working out just fine

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Stockholm
    Posts
    1,528
    Rep Points
    1,177.6
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    12


    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    i guess lostmarine uses race gas as safety measure to keep the octane up and boosting over 20 psi. IMHO the car should be tuned first for the max on pump gas than pump plus meth and than the dyno glory on both meth and race gas.
    Providing all dynos , vbox runs on all 3 variant would be quite interesting. I would love to provide them but i got no license anymore so....
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    8,130
    Rep Points
    9,146.4
    Mentioned
    644 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    92


    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    You also need to be careful when reading timing and not get lulled in to a false sense of security. High values may mean the knock sensor is very quiet but at some point the mixture will preignite from heat buildup in the combustion chamber. Especially given the the lack of a decent aftermarket colder plug. The strained factory fuel system also being contributor to the problem with leaner than idea air/fuel ratios in the 500rw+ range.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    116
    Rep Points
    67.4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You also need to be careful when reading timing and not get lulled in to a false sense of security. High values may mean the knock sensor is very quiet but at some point the mixture will preignite from heat buildup in the combustion chamber. Especially given the the lack of a decent aftermarket colder plug. The strained factory fuel system also being contributor to the problem with leaner than idea air/fuel ratios in the 500rw+ range.
    Great point! Another reason race gas is a smart move at these levels for the extra octane.
    2009 335i: PROcede V4 with BMS DCI (still not sure how they get along!)

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    13,462
    Rep Points
    58.0
    Mentioned
    318 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0


    Yes Reputation No
    by keeping a decent mix of water/meth, does that help combat the heat building inside the motor im guessing?

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Valley Stream NY
    Posts
    3,350
    Rep Points
    2,779.7
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    28


    Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    by keeping a decent mix of water/meth, does that help combat the heat building inside the motor im guessing?

    it does. I wonder if thats why the plugs have been lasting at these power levels. Dan is going all out on 93....I need to bring a set of colder plugs to the dyno or else we gonna have problems :-/

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •