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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Pretty sure we'll get everything of this, except for a NA engine. Emissions regulations killed that for us Click here to enlarge

    And no need for carbon ceramic brakes. These are just overpriced pieces of marketing crap. If you need these to keep weight down, you designed the car wrong. I can see them as a prestige item on supercars, but not on everyday sports cars.
    Come on man a bunch of companies make NA motors they can be VERY clean. The issue with BMW not doing NA is profit more than emissions.
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    All big European car manufacturers have switched to turbo engines across all power level platforms.
    They are just easier to get clean for their power output.
    The N/A engines need al lot of R&D and are probaly not worth putting that much effort in for such a small platform.
    Expect a lot of small high power turbo engines as a spin off of the F1 1.6l V6 turbo engine for next year.
    In the coming years R&D on tat platform will trickle down the line to powerful production cars worldwide.
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  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    All big European car manufacturers have switched to turbo engines across all power level platforms.
    They are just easier to get clean for their power output.
    The N/A engines need al lot of R&D and are probaly not worth putting that much effort in for such a small platform.
    Expect a lot of small high power turbo engines as a spin off of the F1 1.6l V6 turbo engine for next year.
    In the coming years R&D on tat platform will trickle down the line to powerful production cars worldwide.
    Porsche is the most glaring example of not switching. The GT3 has what it has for a reason.
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  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Come on man a bunch of companies make NA motors they can be VERY clean. The issue with BMW not doing NA is profit more than emissions.
    You surely wouldn't want an engine like the 200hp Toyobaru crap in your BMW Click here to enlarge And we won't see a LS3 V8 in an M2 either...

    In the latest SportAuto there's an article on the upcoming M4 where M chief developer (need to look up his name at home) explained the switch to a FI engine: NA has an advantage at full throttle in the high rpm range. But for 95% of the time, the engines are in part throttle/low rpm situations where FI has better efficiency and more torque.
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  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    And we won't see a LS3 V8 in an M2 either...
    Maybe we should?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    In the latest SportAuto there's an article on the upcoming M4 where M chief developer (need to look up his name at home) explained the switch to a FI engine: NA has an advantage at full throttle in the high rpm range. But for 95% of the time, the engines are in part throttle/low rpm situations where FI has better efficiency and more torque.
    An M car isn't about low rpm situations or saving the polar ice caps. It's about the ultimate razor sharp driving machine. And 100% of the time an NA motor with individual throttle bodies will offer greater throttle response and a high rpm rush a turbo motor can't match.

    Is the E46 M3 CSL slower than the upcoming M4? Yep. Is it more exhilarating? We'll have to see but so far that car offers the best driving experience of any M car ever produced and that should be the focus. Not low RPM situations and emissions, leave that for the rest of the lineup that doesn't have an M badge on it.
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Maybe we should?

    An M car isn't about low rpm situations or saving the polar ice caps. It's about the ultimate razor sharp driving machine. And 100% of the time an NA motor with individual throttle bodies will offer greater throttle response and a high rpm rush a turbo motor can't match.

    Is the E46 M3 CSL slower than the upcoming M4? Yep. Is it more exhilarating? We'll have to see but so far that car offers the best driving experience of any M car ever produced and that should be the focus. Not low RPM situations and emissions, leave that for the rest of the lineup that doesn't have an M badge on it.
    Wow, would that be the first time ever you admitted that the E46 M3 CSL > E92 M3 GTS? Click here to enlarge

    Hell must be freezing over.

    I totally agree though, the CSL should be the benchmark!Click here to enlarge

    Throttle response and raw NA sound got sacrified on the altar of emissions. Fortunately the latest generations of turbo engines aren't half bad either.
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  7. #32
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    The F22 M2 should have a detuned S55 or a slightly tweaked S54. And be a little lighter than the M235i, but bear in mind that BMW M GmbH's job is not to take weight out, but to not add any. So don't expect a drop in weight. It will have a 6-speed manual, probably lifted fromvthe F82 M4.

    It will be around 343hp to 350hp, but it is not what they say it is because we all know it will be pushing 380hp. The heaven-sent fender flares from the E82 1M will be there but with a new interpretation.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Wow, would that be the first time ever you admitted that the E46 M3 CSL > E92 M3 GTS?
    The order would go CSL then GTS. But both cars are the best the M division has ever produced.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Hell must be freezing over.
    You obviously haven't been paying attention I've always been a big fan of the CSL.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    Throttle response and raw NA sound got sacrified on the altar of emissions. Fortunately the latest generations of turbo engines aren't half bad either.
    And my point is the 911 GT3, Ferrari 458, and Gallardo all prove they don't need to be. Especially considering how much better these cars are to drive than, say, a 911 turbo.
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  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by deemo319 Click here to enlarge
    The F22 M2 should have a detuned S55 or a slightly tweaked S54. And be a little lighter than the M235i, but bear in mind that BMW M GmbH's job is not to take weight out, but to not add any. So don't expect a drop in weight. It will have a 6-speed manual, probably lifted fromvthe F82 M4.

    It will be around 343hp to 350hp, but it is not what they say it is because we all know it will be pushing 380hp. The heaven-sent fender flares from the E82 1M will be there but with a new interpretation.
    For 344-350 horsepower BMW will just tweak the N55 instead to save money. They don't care any more. The 1M was their test run to see if they could get away with it and they can. Some people even are patting them on the back for selling out, unbelievable.
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  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Porsche is the most glaring example of not switching. The GT3 has what it has for a reason.
    And the exception that proves the rule all in one.
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    They don't care, what? If they do use a detuned S55, that was planned a long time ago. The development costs spread over more units makes sense, and then nobody can say it is not a real M car.

    BMW learned lot from the development and market reception from the E82 1M, and all of those lessons have been applied to the F22 M2. It will be a little beast.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    And the exception that proves the rule all in one.
    The GT3 is an exception? Weird that M used to take the premise the GT3 follows as their diehard law. $ corrupted them.
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  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by deemo319 Click here to enlarge
    They don't care, what? If they do use a detuned S55, that was planned a long time ago. The development costs spread over more units makes sense, and then nobody can say it is not a real M car.

    BMW learned lot from the development and market reception from the E82 1M, and all of those lessons have been applied to the F22 M2. It will be a little beast.
    I agree with your premise but precedent states BMW will take the path of least resistance.

    I would HOPE they use an S motor in an M car or why call it an M car?
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  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The GT3 is an exception? Weird that M used to take the premise the GT3 follows as their diehard law. $ corrupted them.
    If you imply the GTS followed the GT3, then they failed miserably. Well, except for the price...

    The GTS was the biggest letdown of the whole E9x generation. I hope BMW learnt from that as well.

    or which BMW do you have in mind when you mention the GT3?
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  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    If you imply the GTS followed the GT3, then they failed miserably. Well, except for the price...

    The GTS was the biggest letdown of the whole E9x generation. I hope BMW learnt from that as well.

    or which BMW do you have in mind when you mention the GT3?
    The GT3 isn't the competition for the 3-Series but the idea of how the GT3 is driver focused in its design including the motor is something the GTS and CSL follow regardless of price. Not sure what is hard to grasp there.
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    I think an M2 is in the pipeline but I think it is at least a year away since BMW execs have just started to hint it may be coming in press interviews. As I've said before on one of these threads I think there are two most likely options for engine choices for the M2: a more "real" 4 cyl turbo based on the N20 and extensively worked on by the M division or an N55 with a tune. BMW has a slight marketing problem in that they have given the M235i the N55 and it would be a little bit confusing to consumers to have a smaller motor in the most expensive model but they could still do so and make the driving dynamics of the car the primary selling point.

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    anyone else catch that they're going to offer this in AWD? Click here to enlarge that might be pretty interesting
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by deemo319 Click here to enlarge
    It will be a little beast.
    I really hope so. Really, really hope so. I want SO bad to buy one Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rppwm3 Click here to enlarge
    I think an M2 is in the pipeline but I think it is at least a year away since BMW execs have just started to hint it may be coming in press interviews. As I've said before on one of these threads I think there are two most likely options for engine choices for the M2: a more "real" 4 cyl turbo based on the N20 and extensively worked on by the M division or an N55 with a tune. BMW has a slight marketing problem in that they have given the M235i the N55 and it would be a little bit confusing to consumers to have a smaller motor in the most expensive model but they could still do so and make the driving dynamics of the car the primary selling point.
    It creates a problem if they do a tweaked N20 and the N55 guys have more power with just a tune.

    I mean I really like the idea as they can push the motor back, it will be lighter, and the car could be all about the driving dynamics. It would also be interesting to see what an M tweaked N20 would look like and how it would stack up to the Mercedes M133.
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    I think it's possible they build a 400HP I4 turbo to compete with the M133. I think it might confuse the average BMW customer like someone else said too though. "I'm buying a much more expensive M car with a smaller motor than the lower costing model? WTF?" At that point, what is more cost effective to the enthusiast/modder? Buy an M235i with an N55 that has been around for years and will have tuning and aftermarket support immediately but has 100HP less than the new M car? Or get the M car with the 400HP stock and wait for the aftermarket to catch up? IDK. I hope we get an answer on the M2 soon though.
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  21. #46
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    or will 400HP in the M2 put it too close to the M3/M4? maybe so. it looks like a very small gap to fill between the M235i, 335i and the M3/M4
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    I just hope they change their mind and put the 1M N54 in this car with some extra tunes.
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  23. #48
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    LOL don't we all. Pretty sure that's not happening though

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    I just hope they change their mind and put the 1M N54 in this car with some extra tunes.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    or will 400HP in the M2 put it too close to the M3/M4? maybe so. it looks like a very small gap to fill between the M235i, 335i and the M3/M4
    400 will indeed be too close to the M4. BMW hasn't left much room below the m4 powerwise (kinda ironic...) so my guess would be 350-360 hp. A detuned S55 would be great in my book. Don't think they can still rely on the N54 at that moment from a marketing point of view.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Autobahn335i Click here to enlarge
    You surely wouldn't want an engine like the 200hp Toyobaru crap in your BMW Click here to enlarge And we won't see a LS3 V8 in an M2 either...
    No...but I would take the 325hp 3.4L in the Cayman S that is 28mpg.

    Or the 400hp 3.8L in the 991S that get 27mph.

    Or the 455hp 6.2L in the C7 that gets 29mpg.

    And so on...


    What does the N54 do in the 335i...26mpg.

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