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  1. #451
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    Perhaps in theory, but you would have to have dyno charts to show if there are any gains to be had at this power level
    Well even deleting the cats/resonators in the midpipes on a stock turbo car (E90 problems) usually nets you another ~10 WHP.... Science & Dynos have illustrated that once you go over 500 WHP, a 3-3.5" exhaust would optimal until you hit 800 WHP.

    Here's
    a slightly dated automotive review (includes dynos & acceleration numbers at the bottom) on exhaust sizing from 3", 3.5" & 4", then gains, using a Supra as the "constant" and exhausts being the only "variable". This is the most valuable part for this thread, focusing on the gains of going from a 3" DP-Back exhaust to 3.5":
    Our 3-inch exhaust baseline netted 527 whp at 19 psi. With the 3.5-inch exhaust, it climbed to 567 whp with a peak gain of 66 whp at 6000 rpm in fourth gear. At 29 psi, we went from a baseline of 699 to 740 whp. Peak gains here were 52 whp at 6100 rpm. The icing on the cake is the fact the turbo spools up a 150-200 rpm quicker with the larger-diameter exhaust.
    They later proved in the article that going from a 3" DP to a 3.5" yielded another 52 WHP by eliminating the bottleneck directly off the turbo. Combined, you're looking at +104 WHP just by adding another 1/2" to the complete exhaust system.
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  2. #452
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    I spoke with wedge this past weekend. he mentioned the bottom mount fftec kits are having issues above 650whp where they're getting an echo in the exhaust causing a shockwave to go from one bank to the other causing fueling issues. Something like that, i was kind of confused since i'd never heard of anything like that. I guess they originally thought it was caused by valve float. That's why he said they're going to top mount twin scroll with longer runners to hopefully fix the "echo".

    Thoughts?

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    Hmm this is interesting!!

  4. #454
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    I spoke with wedge this past weekend. he mentioned the bottom mount fftec kits are having issues above 650whp where they're getting an echo in the exhaust causing a shockwave to go from one bank to the other causing fueling issues. Something like that, i was kind of confused since i'd never heard of anything like that. I guess they originally thought it was caused by valve float. That's why he said they're going to top mount twin scroll with longer runners to hopefully fix the "echo".

    Thoughts?
    I'm not entirely sure on that. But I didn't install one of each by accident. Looking forward to digging in deep on the tuning end of these things. Click here to enlarge
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  5. #455
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    Thanks to you t and ak for doing so much for the community as a whole.
    09 6AT 335i Coupe M-Sport - SOLD
    Current - 16 Jeep Wrangler - Few Mods
    Looking for a n54 project e90/e82

  6. #456
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ChuckD05 Click here to enlarge
    Thanks to you t and ak for doing so much for the community as a whole.
    I agree. It's because of others people's will to drive this platform further that helps me decide on my future decisions for my car.

  7. #457
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    I spoke with wedge this past weekend. he mentioned the bottom mount fftec kits are having issues above 650whp where they're getting an echo in the exhaust causing a shockwave to go from one bank to the other causing fueling issues. Something like that, i was kind of confused since i'd never heard of anything like that. I guess they originally thought it was caused by valve float. That's why he said they're going to top mount twin scroll with longer runners to hopefully fix the "echo".

    Thoughts?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'm not entirely sure on that. But I didn't install one of each by accident. Looking forward to digging in deep on the tuning end of these things. Click here to enlarge
    Yeah it sounded odd to me but wedge is a pretty smart and well informed guy plus he's a pretty big supporter of fftec and they're work so he wouldn't be one to spread rumors. Im definitely looking forward to You giving a second opinion on the matter when the first one is connected to shiv, lol. Would be pretty funny if it was a Procede issue, and not a hardware problem.

  9. #459
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Lmfao
    Click here to enlarge

  10. #460
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    I spoke with wedge this past weekend. he mentioned the bottom mount fftec kits are having issues above 650whp where they're getting an echo in the exhaust causing a shockwave to go from one bank to the other causing fueling issues. Something like that, i was kind of confused since i'd never heard of anything like that. I guess they originally thought it was caused by valve float. That's why he said they're going to top mount twin scroll with longer runners to hopefully fix the "echo".

    Thoughts?
    Click here to enlarge

    That's bull$#@! in my opinion. Pretty funny actually, but we will see.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bmw335iguy Click here to enlarge
    I spoke with wedge this past weekend. he mentioned the bottom mount fftec kits are having issues above 650whp where they're getting an echo in the exhaust causing a shockwave to go from one bank to the other causing fueling issues. Something like that, i was kind of confused since i'd never heard of anything like that. I guess they originally thought it was caused by valve float. That's why he said they're going to top mount twin scroll with longer runners to hopefully fix the "echo".

    Thoughts?
    Damn, that's a shame...shame...shame...

  12. #462
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    Edited. Please read below.

  13. #463
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    Our bottom mount kits are not having issues. The kits were originally designed with 700 Crank HP in mind, and perform flawlessly at these levels. Now that the platform and engines are being pushed to produce more power, updates and revisions have to be made/engineered to meet the requirements to support these power levels. The fact is that as you make more power more back pressure is created; the original manifold design was not meant to support these new higher HP.

    New kits have been designed and developed in order to stay competitive with todays markets, utilizing the countless hours of R & D coupled with updated turbo technologies.
    Engine Builder, Tuner, Installation Specialist

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  14. #464
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MikeB Click here to enlarge
    Our bottom mount kits are not having issues. The kits were originally designed with 700 Crank HP in mind, and perform flawlessly at these levels. Now that the platform and engines are being pushed to produce more power, updates and revisions have to be made/engineered to meet the requirements to support these power levels. The fact is that as you make more power more back pressure is created; the original manifold design was not meant to support these new higher HP.

    New kits have been designed and developed in order to stay competitive with todays markets, utilizing the countless hours of R & D coupled with updated turbo technologies.
    So are you going to confirm or deny the "exhaust echo, shockwave, fueling issue, ghost valve float" or now its just excess back pressure? So basically we are not even a fabrication shop and we created a prototype kit that had no problem handling 725 WHP with no manifold design issues, and you guys are now on your 3rd kit revision to get it right? I love when people compare our kits and yours and complain about a lack of numbers we released from a prototype kit, but the facts are prototype kit takes WHP record first try, and now it took a full kit revision to break it by a few WHP and now on to 3rd production revision. Cant wait to get the production kit done and take this record back. Can you explain to us what updated turbocharger technology you are taking advantage of with your new "revision" The 6466 was available when you released your first kit, and we have been building twin scroll systems for 20 years. Just a little clarification would be great. Cheers

    Edit: Terry, I wonder if you have gotten the revised kits that are proven to not have any of these issues or if they are going to test them out on your cars to see?
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 11-05-2013 at 12:34 AM.

  15. #465
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    Cross-talk between cylinders ... only at the higher back pressures when making over 700 crank HP. Making a twin turbo kit already eliminates the chance that you will run into this issue because you do not have a manifold with all 6 cylinders feeding into one turbo.

    We are producing more kits because the desire that we and our clients have to make more power. The new manifolds are designed to be able to make this power utilizing twin scroll technology.

    The original manifold (still in production) was designed for its HP output in mind, and performs flawlessly at those levels.

    I mentioned all of that in my previous post. This seems redundant.

    More fact, our Prototype of the bottom Mount Twin Scroll design holds the current record for highest HP, from its very first run on the dyno.

    Tony, Terry is FULLY informed on all of our happenings and R&D with this platform, and has already been informed of MANY trials and tribulations he may face while trying to setup his JB4 to operate a VFF kit perfectly.

    I'm not here to argue or advertise, just clear up what the community may have believed is a problem with our VFF kits; there is NO PROBLEM.
    Last edited by Anthony@FFTEC; 11-05-2013 at 12:42 AM.
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  16. #466
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    ^
    Professional response.

    That could have turned ugly.


  17. #467
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Edit: Terry, I wonder if you have gotten the revised kits that are proven to not have any of these issues or if they are going to test them out on your cars to see?
    I have the 6466 kit on the E92 and I'm ultimately shooting for 700rw with that setup. There are a few things I want to test out on the o2 sensor control at higher boost levels and I also want to get a JB4 anti-lag system working for quicker spool up during rolling races.

    On the 135i I have the top mount twin scroll going on with a smaller turbo to experiment with at the track. Ultimately that car will get a built motor, trans, higher stall, and a larger turbo.

    More worried about trans issues on the auto and spool speed than anything else. Resolving control system issues is my specialty so I'll push through that without issue. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  18. #468
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I have the 6466 kit on the E92 and I'm ultimately shooting for 700rw with that setup. There are a few things I want to test out on the o2 sensor control at higher boost levels and I also want to get a JB4 anti-lag system working for quicker spool up during rolling races.

    On the 135i I have the top mount twin scroll going on with a smaller turbo to experiment with at the track. Ultimately that car will get a built motor, trans, higher stall, and a larger turbo.

    More worried about trans issues on the auto and spool speed than anything else. Resolving control system issues is my specialty so I'll push through that without issue. Click here to enlarge
    I was really just being a smart ass after all the kit comparisons, and now the supposed valve float issue, that was an exhaust echo, but now is just back pressure, I think its kinda funny. But on a serous note. I agree the tranny is going to be a tough one to overcome when you are going for the big power. I am very curious to see how it goes. Ps. Your N55 is coming along nicely, should be up and running soon.

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    So the back pressure is causing exhaust from bank 1 to creep into bank 2 and vice versa, that is some interesting stuff. It also makes sense why twin scroll would be the way to go then or one post turbo o2 sensor at some point with the single scroll configuration

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    Precisely why Twin scroll is a necessity at higher WHP levels.

    The creeping of exhaust gas and reverted flow will INDUCE valve float. Everything ties into each other when referring to any of the valve float, reversion, or back pressure.

    Just to be clear, none of the kits we've produced since introduction of the bottom mount twin scroll and Top Mount ST kits are revisions. They are entirely new kits.
    Last edited by Anthony@FFTEC; 11-05-2013 at 01:17 AM.
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  21. #471
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 2000max Click here to enlarge
    So the back pressure is causing exhaust from bank 1 to creep into bank 2 and vice versa, that is some interesting stuff. It also makes sense why twin scroll would be the way to go then or one post turbo o2 sensor at some point with the single scroll configuration
    This is not a new phenomenon, it does hsppen, the scary part is, they thought and told everyone that these engines had valve float issues. So which is it, did you really run into valve train issues or was it just back pressure? Also they are claiming "countless" hours of R&D but haven't bothered to mount a simple bs pressure sensor or 2 in the banks and run some data logging? How bout some EGT data, shaft speeds, at a bare minimum analog boost not read off the tmap? I mean you would think countless hours of R&D would involve some hard data like that, yet we have never seen it. But we are running these sensors and more on our $2800 stock frame upgrades to get as much info as possible. Hmmm makes you think

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    Double Post --- Disregard
    Engine Builder, Tuner, Installation Specialist

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  23. #473
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    Valve Float, reversion, Back Pressure, It is all related. Please read my above post.

    Anyways -
    ---------------------------------------------
    Here are a few pictures of the progress being made on Terrys 2 cars.

    135i Top Mount ---

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    335i Bottom Mount

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    Engine Builder, Tuner, Installation Specialist

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by trbolexis Click here to enlarge
    Precisely why Twin scroll is a necessity at higher WHP levels.

    The creeping of exhaust gas and reverted flow will INDUCE valve float. Everything ties into each other. When referring to any of the valve float, reversion, or back pressure.

    Just to be clear, none of the kits we've produced since introduction of the bottom mount twin scroll and Top Mount ST kits are revisions. They are entirely new kits.
    ok confused again, so 3 days ago you were telling everyone you had valve train issues and were in development of all new valvetrain parts to solve them, now 3 days later, yes there is back pressure induced valve float, but you fixed it by making revisions and new kits. Ok so if it was only back pressure inversion and not a valve train issue why were you telling everyone 3 days ago it was a valve train issue?if the revisions and new kits were designed around this than it would have been discovered long ago and found to be your flawed manifold design and not actual valve train problems. Hmmm again, also before anynore smoke gets blown up anyone's ass, there are MANY kits in MANY platforms making much more than 700 WHP in non divided manifolds with none of these issues, so obviously it was precisely the manifold design itself, not running an undivided system above those power levels.

    edit: sticky as a paying vendor really not pleased with letting a blatant marketing attempt and way to distract from the topic at hand by posting a crapload of pictures of their products for sale "slide". So they can afford to pay a top notch fabricator who can weld like that but they can't pay you $100 a month to be a vendor? Yeah not too happy with leaving those pics up.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 11-05-2013 at 01:31 AM.

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    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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