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  1. #276
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I am giving up on this discussion until you bring up something factual, as in data. Otherwise you're pushing for bringing up people's names, places, events, exact time/date of when/how engines failed that are a small percentage of that 25k you mentioned. Have you really sold 25k JBs? Amazing.

    Suggest we end this discussion here. It really is pointless at this point and taking away from your time tuning those FFTEC kits.
    That is up to you. I'm having a conversation about methanol safety differences and you want to talk about pump gas safety. Which is fine but has little to do with large turbos. Unless we are talking about tuning large turbos on pump gas? For that we require the CPS wires at a minimum but for the last few months have required the back end flash.

    More than 25k JBs...
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  2. #277
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's been asked and answered many times. The DME long term octane adaption is used to back down advance. For awhile we experimented with CPS with lackluster benefit and now for sitiatuons that call for it we suggest the free PUMP back end flash for aggressive 91 octane guys.
    Just stop argh lol There is no such thing as long term octane adaptations to timing on the N54. If there was you wouldn't be able to pour in race gas or E85 or spray meth and immediately get your timing back. I understand why it led you to believe this may be happening as you only see actual timing (target - timing correction) for cylinder 1. It might end up looking that way. Once you're able to consistently monitor all 6 cylinders for both target timing as well as corrections, and do that by looking at literally thousands of logs/runs from various parts of the World running all kinds of mod combinations, octane and ambient conditions, you realize what you just said simply does not exist on this car. Unless your long term octane adaptation is something that spans two or three runs under full load?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    To say the DME is running fueling is incorrect. The piggyback is still dynamically adjusting fueling and scaling those fuel trims as a function of boost, ethanol mixture, and methanol flow. What happens to fuel trims when meth starts spraying? They start going negative. If using a flash only. A piggyback properly setup will balance them so they stay neutral from zero meth to full meth. Your opinion of having the flash run everything is based on your limited understanding how of the JB4 works. In my opinion the biggest weaknesses of flash tunes alone are the limitations with boost control (no absolute targeting, MT bogs, no 1st gear boost limiting, weak warm up protection, weak over boost safeties, weaker top end curves, etc) and post shift timing. Typically with automatics where it's completely unbearable for some but also with MTs when doing NLS at times. To me those are much bigger problems than the weak methanol safety but one needs to be aware that flash only methanol safety is very limited.
    The DME is absolutely running fueling, all of it. You're influencing it from the outside but you're not running it. That didn't get you too far without flashing the DME to squeeze more out of it. JB is simply dancing around the DME poking at it from different angles and you're here claiming victory and superiority in control. None of that JB trickery is needed, period. Custom tunes just enhance the base OTS maps further on what they do and the DME goes back to working on things it was made to work on, as well as it can. Nothing an outside system looking in can enhance in any way the way it is done today while maintaining full transparency for the end user/tuner.

    I'm surprised you mentioned manual transmission bogging Click here to enlarge What firmware fixes this exactly? I know for a fact you can't fix it. The cause is well defined at this point but system like a JB cannot fix it and have the car perform 100%. You can get lucky and not bog sometimes but that is not a fix.
    Click here to enlarge

  3. #278
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Just stop argh lol There is no such thing as long term octane adaptations to timing on the N54. If there was you wouldn't be able to pour in race gas or E85 or spray meth and immediately get your timing back. I understand why it led you to believe this may be happening as you only see actual timing (target - timing correction) for cylinder 1.
    It's comments like that which scares me sometimes. People pay you for tuning? There is no N54 octane adaption? Here is the command to reset it right from the diagnostic software. Enjoy.

    <Command StartCommand="31,30,00,20,00">
    <Text xml:lang="en">Reset octane rating adaptation</Text>
    <Text xml:lang="de">Reset Oktanzahl Anpassung</Text>
    <Text xml:lang="it">Reimposta l' adattamento del numero di ottani</Text>
    </Command>

    The DME is absolutely running fueling, all of it. You're influencing it from the outside but you're not running it. That didn't get you too far without flashing the DME to squeeze more out of it. JB is simply dancing around the DME poking at it from different angles and you're here claiming victory and superiority in control. None of that JB trickery is needed, period. Custom tunes just enhance the base OTS maps further on what they do and the DME goes back to working on things it was made to work on, as well as it can. Nothing an outside system looking in can enhance in any way the way it is done today while maintaining full transparency for the end user/tuner.
    The fueling system is based entirely on the DME observed fuel pressure which the JB4 is in full control of. That single analog output allows full control over fuel trims. And the o2 bias used can target any plausible air/fuel ratio. The problem is you start to run in to diagnostic codes if you go far enough away from stock so you need the back end flash at some point to rescale the system.

    I'm surprised you mentioned manual transmission bogging Click here to enlarge What firmware fixes this exactly? I know for a fact you can't fix it. The cause is well defined at this point but system like a JB cannot fix it and have the car perform 100%. You can get lucky and not bog sometimes but that is not a fix.
    Flash tunes can't do anything for it. On the piggyback end we can disassociate DME observed boost from actual boost which allows it to be corrected. The latest 27.5 is very good with MT bog. But for drivers that don't like to let off the gas pedal all the way the built in NLS is the hot ticket.
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  4. #279
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    It's comments like that which scares me sometimes. People pay you for tuning? There is no N54 octane adaption? Here is the command to reset it right from the diagnostic software. Enjoy.
    Nice try. That reset command has nothing to do with what we're talking about, i.e. target timing changing based on knock. Try again.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The fueling system is based entirely on the DME observed fuel pressure which the JB4 is in full control of. That single analog output allows full control over fuel trims. The problem is you start to run in to diagnostic codes so you need the back end flash at some point to rescale the system up or down for the intended usage.
    Again, the point is there is no need for a JB in the overall quality of tune picture. DME does fuel control in closed loop and it sees both LPFP and HPFP pressure just fine. Once its out of fuel how exactly will a JB squirt some fuel in there? You end up with codes etc just like you said. You'd end up with the same if you let the DME handle it on its own. You're constantly missing the point. JB simply isn't needed for any of this tuning-related functionality to happen. Its there from the factory.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Flash tunes can't do anything for it. On the piggyback end we can disassociate DME observed boost from actual boost which allows it to be corrected. The latest 27.5 is very good with MT bog. But for drivers that don't like to let off the gas pedal all the way the built in NLS is the hot ticket.
    "Very good" is not a fix and I know it still doesn't work. Just got an SMS from someone reading this thread on your very latest firmware. You've been trying to fix the 6MT bog issue for at least as long as you've worked on creating the JB. It is still not fixed and still very much happens. NLS is great but it comes with its own set of raised eyebrows, sometimes.

    Sadly all the systems sitting external to the DME have just as many cons as they do pros. Some have more than others. Sticking to working within the DME (as much as possible) and pushing the platform that way OR with a full standalone (if it ever comes) is and will always be the only way to get things done right.
    Click here to enlarge

  5. #280
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You guys should just go to Vegas and have some drinks, maybe get a lapdance? Too much stress in here.
    No joke, I was out with my girl last night and for the F of it got my palms read after we went through a haunted house. We were planning a trip to Vegas after thanksgiving. The palm reader told me I would meet my soul mate on this trip. (lolz) So my question is.... will it be Terry, Dzenno, or one of the fine upstanding young women merely working her way through college? Either way I'll be wearing my sporty electric blue thong.

  6. #281
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Nice try. That reset command has nothing to do with what we're talking about, i.e. target timing changing based on knock. Try again.
    Sigh more time waste. You said octane adaptions do not exist. I showed you the command to reset them. So now you say you meant knock adaptions all along? It's clear to me you don't really understand how the DME works so I don't see how you can understand the relationship between the DME and JB4 enough to have any sort of credible opinion on the subject. Just my $.02 but stick to fixing Cobb's map for $200 a pop.

    <Command StartCommand="31,30,02,00,00">
    <Text xml:lang="en">Reset knock control adaptation</Text>
    <Text xml:lang="de">Reset Klopfregelung Anpassung</Text>
    <Text xml:lang="it">Ripristino adattamento controllo detonazioni</Text>
    </Command>
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  7. #282
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    No joke, I was out with my girl last night and for the F of it got my palms read after we went through a haunted house. We were planning a trip to Vegas after thanksgiving. The palm reader told me I would meet my soul mate on this trip. (lolz) So my question is.... will it be Terry, Dzenno, or one of the fine upstanding young women merely working her way through college? Either way I'll be wearing my sporty electric blue thong.
    Wait, how do you know it won't be me?

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  8. #283
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Wait, how do you know it won't be me?
    How do you know I'm not being coy with you?

  9. #284
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    How do you know I'm not being coy with you?
    My god it's fate.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  10. #285
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    Lmao
    Click here to enlarge

  11. #286
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    the worst thing for us on the outside, is it's hard to know which one of you is actually correct ffs.

    ...

    LOL - BB couple of the year? ;D
    boop

  12. #287
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    the worst thing for us on the outside, is it's hard to know which one of you is actually correct ffs.

    ...

    LOL - BB couple of the year? ;D
    No $#@!...I'm pretty lost myself, but seems to be plenty of good results from both and I don't really hear about too many issues from either, I've been happy with my JB4 so far, can't wait to get the stage 2's in and really start having some fun
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

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    3 out of 8 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    This post by cwarren is hidden due to excessive negative ratings. Click expand to view the post.



  14. #289
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cwarren Click here to enlarge
    "I know enough to be dangerous" and I can see a bunch of half truths going on here.
    terry you know your blowing smoke around here and no im not going to argue semantics with you because I would only look like a fool see above quote.(but im not an idiot) what happen to being the somewhat neutral guy here .PTF and the falling out with VTT ? feeling the crunch of competition ? butt hurt ? don't get it man.......
    Him and Dzenno have always done this. In almost everythread it goes like this. Dropping out with Vargas is a whole different story and really doesn't even need to be brought up here.
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  15. #290
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    tl;dr

    The thought of sticky and SCGT in a thong is relevant considering it's Haloween. Scared the hell outta me!

  16. #291
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    WOW!! for a second, I thought Shiv was involved here!
    All I care about is someone take that 1st place record!

  17. #292
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by cwarren Click here to enlarge
    "I know enough to be dangerous" and I can see a bunch of half truths going on here.
    terry you know your blowing smoke around here and no im not going to argue semantics with you because I would only look like a fool see above quote.(but im not an idiot) what happen to being the somewhat neutral guy here .PTF and the falling out with VTT ? feeling the crunch of competition ? butt hurt ? don't get it man.......
    I've never been neutral. I support who/what I feel comfortable suggesting to our customers and I reject who/what I feel doesn't meet certain standards. I'm pretty easy to get along with. I don't dislike Vargas or Dzenno. On the Vargas I have my reasons for pulling the plug on supporting his N54 stuff. On Dzenno, it's occasionally frustrating how misinformed he is on what should be straight forward concepts. To me it's like arguing with Shiv except that at least Shiv is pretty smart about this stuff. So I try to correct him and he feels like he has to throw back insults rather than just learning or raising technical counter arguments if they need to be raised. Unfortunately with this platform there are not many people who really understand the technical aspects. But those who do can read our discussion and draw their own conclusions as far as I'm concerned. I do agree it's largely a waste of time. But at the very least it got me to implement the SAP methanol safety as an option for those who think it's sufficient for them. Weaker safety systems are less intrusive and for someone running straight race gas, E85, etc, maybe they will see that as a useful feature. And hopefully Dzenno now understands why his Aquamist failsafe system is very limited compared to how it could be if it was better integrated.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 11-01-2013 at 01:04 AM.
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  18. #293
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    I'm going to think about this a bit longer and then ask for some help...it's lost on meClick here to enlarge.
    I figured it out at the same time. Ptf and BMS are tuners. Tuner wars.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Oh my. The S word came up. D isn't S by any stretch and both meth systems suck because that's the nature of meth... if you want a failsafe system like I do the simple answer is don't run one at all. Happy Halloween all. Back to the books tomorrow.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Oh my. The S word came up. D isn't S by any stretch and both meth systems suck because that's the nature of meth... if you want a failsafe system like I do the simple answer is don't run one at all. Happy Halloween all. Back to the books tomorrow.
    I know right, just don't run meth LOL. Funny though, Shiv is like Voldemort hahaha
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  21. #296
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I've never been neutral. I support who/what I feel comfortable suggesting to our customers and I reject who/what I feel doesn't meet certain standards. I'm pretty easy to get along with. I don't dislike Vargas or Dzenno. On the Vargas I have my reasons for pulling the plug on supporting his N54 stuff. On Dzenno, it's occasionally frustrating how misinformed he is on what should be straight forward concepts. To me it's like arguing with Shiv except that at least Shiv is pretty smart about this stuff. So I try to correct him and he feels like he has to throw back insults rather than just learning or raising technical counter arguments if they need to be raised. Unfortunately with this platform there are not many people who really understand the technical aspects. But those who do can read our discussion and draw their own conclusions as far as I'm concerned. I do agree it's largely a waste of time. But at the very least it got me to implement the SAP methanol safety as an option for those who think it's sufficient for them. Weaker safety systems are less intrusive and for someone running straight race gas, E85, etc, maybe they will see that as a useful feature. And hopefully Dzenno now understands why his Aquamist failsafe system is very limited compared to how it could be if it was better integrated.
    You paint a few pictures of yourself to people. Neutral is one of them as clearly other people bring that up. Knowledgable and helpful is the other, which you are. I have no reason not to like you either although there are reasons for it if I took it personally. I understand why you say what you say. Thera are business motives and twisting those cleverly into your marketing agenda for the JB is understandable. When you go outside of the BMS circle and start poking straight at me that is a little different. I simply speak up on the JB limitations that I typically don't have time to discuss as I know how that usually goes with you heh I respect others and their hard work. Competition gets to you and you end up insulting and showing complete disrespect such as what you posted here. After that we get 3 pages of boring stuff happening Click here to enlarge

    Tuning is a skill acquired with time. Just like any skill it requires dedication, work and time spent. Enjoying it and having some disposable income help it along too. Those are the ingredients for becoming quite good at any skill. Resorting to insults doesn't go anywhere. I've been with this platform for 6 years. It is very hard for one to be misinformed when N54 is your day to day thing lol I live and breath this thing. Its a fact that some key features on the JB have been influenced by a number of discussions/topics/data/approaches that I've had a chance to come across and share with you and this community. My "misinformed" engagement as you put it has given you recipes to NLS, 2-Step, fueling, stacking. In this thread the "SAP" methanol integration approach is in some way being adopted by the JB. I wouldn't suggest adding it the way you're describing as it still won't match functionality or performance of the Aquamist kit as it'll still have an inferior meth injection strategy (i.e. pump on at full blast, scaling flow at part throttle impossible). Adding support for PWM FAV control could complete the circle for you there, otherwise, it is simply a waste of time and no better than what you have right now.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 11-01-2013 at 07:45 AM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I figured it out at the same time. Ptf and BMS are tuners. Tuner wars.
    lol..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Tuning is a skill acquired with time. Just like any skill it requires dedication, work and time spent. Enjoying it and having some disposable income help it along too. Those are the ingredients for becoming quite good at any skill. Resorting to insults doesn't go anywhere. I've been with this platform for 6 years. It is very hard for one to be misinformed when N54 is your day to day thing lol I live and breath this thing. Its a fact that some key features on the JB have been influenced by a number of discussions/topics/data/approaches that I've had a chance to come across and share with you and this community. My "misinformed" engagement as you put it has given you recipes to NLS, 2-Step, fueling, stacking. In this thread the "SAP" methanol integration approach is in some way being adopted by the JB. I wouldn't suggest adding it the way you're describing as it still won't match functionality or performance of the Aquamist kit as it'll still have an inferior meth injection strategy (i.e. pump on at full blast, scaling flow at part throttle impossible). Adding support for PWM FAV control could complete the circle for you there, otherwise, it is simply a waste of time and no better than what you have right now.
    I always show respect where I feel it's due. And I also think it's fair to say we @ BMS (there are 7 of us) incorporate the best of anything we see out there to be included in the JB4 feature set. If that is a criticism then so be it.

    I'll try to get this a back on topic. The JB4 works with any meth kit. AEM, Aquamist, DO, CM, the BMS kit, etc. You seem to be obsessed with talking about the BMS methanol kit. Maybe meth kit differences are best discussed in another thread all together. So let's just talk about the Aquamist kit you suggest and the three methods for connecting that safety to the JB4. You tell me which option you'd suggest your customers use and why.

    Option 1: No JB4 integration at all. Methanol solenoid "kill switch" is connected directly to the boost solenoid. User enters minimum/maximum flow, boost, and time delay for the signal to "kill" power to the boost solenoid thus dropping boost. User can monitor methanol flow using the Aquamist gauge they hard mount somewhere. I'm assuming maximum flow for over flow safety exists here in the AM controller.

    Option 2: Same as option 1 only rather than being connected to the solenoid the "kill switch" is connected to a JB4 digital input. The JB4 monitors that signal at 200hz and if a kill is requested the JB4 closes the throttle body (forcing boost to bypass out the BOV), cuts power to the solenoids, and pulls back timing advance, all instantly.

    Option 3: The Aquamist "kill" wire is not connected to anything. Instead, the Aquamist flow sensor is connected to a JB4 analog input. The JB4 translates this voltage in to a 0-100% methanol flow value at 200hz. The JB4 is then programmed to raise boost as a function of this flow signal. So methanol must be flowing before boost is raised to full target. During half flow you get half way up to full target. The JB4 is then also programmed to monitor cylinder 1 timing advance for drops that indicate the methanol flow is not sufficient for the boost levels. If timing drops (~knock) are detected the overall boost level is lowered slightly. If drops persist boost is dropped down to pump gas levels all together and the user is informed in dash. User can monitor methanol flow using the Aquamist gauge they hard mount somewhere OR they can monitor methanol flow in dash on the oil temperature gauge where it shows methanol flow only when at wide open throttle.

    So, three options. All equally easy to setup. What would you suggest your customer do given those three options?
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  24. #299
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    tl;dr

    The thought of sticky and SCGT in a thong is relevant considering it's Haloween. Scared the hell outta me!
    I dressed as a priest actually.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

  25. #300
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Get back to you, out and about all day..just quickly, not obsessed with anything bms related, that's just foolish..simply answering to insults with experience which you like to refer to as misunderstanding and misinformation..i do wish we can have an honest open discussion but it'll simply never end..suggest we both drop it as we both have better things to do with our time than argue on here..i want to see these kits beat up on some s/c s65s much more to be honest
    Click here to enlarge

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