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  1. #251
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    We wouldn't have any of this discussion in the first place if you hadn't decided to mudsling first. Carry on as you wish. Looking forward to your data but I'd much rather see these kits perform. Way more exciting.
    I enjoy the discussion and it's OK to mix in some mud slinging for comedy if you're so inclined but stay on topic and make technical arguments. A lot of your response is coming off as ammeter hour. Refute the technical arguments and make some of your own. For example I laid out why I refer to your Aquamist methanol safety as spray and pray above.

    Your reply:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by D
    There is no comparison between really poor Coolingmist kits (which I ran for 2 years on my car with a procede back in the day) to Aquamist's HFS-4. Everything from HFS-4's injection strategy, failsafe, quality of hardware, 100% methanol support is just much higher quality.

    The reason people were deactivating their Coolingmist failsafe setups is because they simply didn't work. They were a huge hassle to configure and run with on daily driven cars. The kit was too universal, came with minimal instructions and configuring it to work on its own or with a piggyback in "failsafe" mode was next to impossible without intermittent kick outs into failsafe mode. Most people like you said ended up disabling the failsafe on the coolingmist kit as otherwise hundreds of dollars were spent on something they simply couldn't use.

    HFS-4's failsafe setup is preconfigured to work out of the box with minimal to no setup in most cases. You flow test the system when you install it, confirm flow on the gauge and at the nozzles and from that point forward its refill and go. I haven't needed to re-prime the system a single time yet even with the car sitting for a year.
    1) You say the AM kit is higher quality than CM's old kit. That is not under debate.
    2) You say the CM failsafe didn't work and it was being deactivated. We're talking about cases where it was activated and failed to prevent engine damage.
    3) You say the AM failsafe is setup from the factory. So AM can magically predict the quality of methanol fluid being injected and how much of that fluid must be injected to prevent knock for a given boost level, car, weather, heat soak? I'd love to hear how that works.
    4) You say you've not had to reprime your car in over a year. How is this even relevant? Also, if your hardware and tuning is so great why has your car been sitting FOR A YEAR! (see, this is the insult sprinkled in. Note it does not take up much space or detract from the technical argument).
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  2. #252
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Doesn't the DME protect itself from this? Isn't that how the JB has been so successful?
    Not at all. The DME does a good job of learning long term octane adaption trims. It will happily remove 3-4 degrees of timing long term. Which is why the JB4 has been so successful as implemented. But meth screws up the system. With meth flowing it thinks octane is very good. So it maxes out timing. Which is great. Until meth suddenly isn't as strong as it needs to be. Then you open yourself up to big advance + big boost + not enough octane = blown pistons.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  3. #253
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    LMFAO. I'm not going to get any work done at this rate. This is hilarious.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I enjoy the discussion and it's OK to mix in some mud slinging for comedy if you're so inclined but stay on topic and make technical arguments. A lot of your response is coming off as ammeter hour. Refute the technical arguments and make some of your own. For example I laid out why I refer to your Aquamist methanol safety as spray and pray above.

    Your reply:



    1) You say the AM kit is higher quality than CM's old kit. That is not under debate.
    2) You say the CM failsafe didn't work and it was being deactivated. We're talking about cases where it was activated and failed to prevent engine damage.
    3) You say the AM failsafe is setup from the factory. So AM can magically predict the quality of methanol fluid being injected and how much of that fluid must be injected to prevent knock for a given boost level, car, weather, heat soak? I'd love to hear how that works.
    4) You say you've not had to reprime your car in over a year. How is this even relevant? Also, if your hardware and tuning is so great why has your car been sitting FOR A YEAR! (see, this is the insult sprinkled in. Note it does not take up much space or detract from the technical argument).
    2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends Click here to enlarge

  4. #254
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    I just mark this read because it keeps going.
    Chrome Space Bar Issue: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...338#post738338


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  5. #255
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I just mark this read because it keeps going.
    Yeah, it does just keep going. But the beauty of this board is that technical discussions that invlove BMS, PTF, basically anything "non-Shiv" do get to proceed (no pun intended) and not get censored like they do by that ball licker Jason over on his forum. I don't have a dog in this fight but there is some good tech being discussed and a little mud slinging along the way never hurts.

    The tuna wars are entertaining this morning.

  6. #256
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    The tuna wars are entertaining this morning.
    Im just now getting this "TUNA" reference lol..

  7. #257
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    me too LOL

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Im just now getting this "TUNA" reference lol..
    2011 335is DCT, moving to Italy, looking for new car friends Click here to enlarge

  8. #258
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    Im just now getting this "TUNA" reference lol..
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    me too LOL
    I'm going to think about this a bit longer and then ask for some help...it's lost on meClick here to enlarge.

  9. #259
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Not at all. The DME does a good job of learning long term octane adaption trims. It will happily remove 3-4 degrees of timing long term. Which is why the JB4 has been so successful as implemented. But meth screws up the system. With meth flowing it thinks octane is very good. So it maxes out timing. Which is great. Until meth suddenly isn't as strong as it needs to be. Then you open yourself up to big advance + big boost + not enough octane = blown pistons.
    Oh, when I used the AM system, it would throw my car into limp mode if meth stopped flowing.
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  10. #260
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Oh, when I used the AM system, it would throw my car into limp mode if meth stopped flowing.
    Exactly my point. When meth stopped flowing. Not when (or before) car encountered massive knock. No meth flow is easy to detect. Not enough meth flow for your current conditions to avoid massive knock, not so easy. It requires complex integration between the meth controller and the DME.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  11. #261
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Oh, when I used the AM system, it would throw my car into limp mode if meth stopped flowing.
    Exactly my point. When meth stopped flowing. Not when (or before) car encountered massive knock. No meth flow is easy to detect. Not enough meth flow for your current conditions to avoid massive knock, not so easy. It requires complex integration between the meth controller and the DME.

    SAP is better than no methanol safety at all but not as good as an integrated safety. Maybe it's good enough for most. That can be up to debate. So we'll add the SAP option to JB4 firmware just in case someone wants it.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  12. #262
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Exactly my point. When meth stopped flowing. Not when (or before) car encountered massive knock. No meth flow is easy to detect. Not enough meth flow for your current conditions to avoid massive knock, not so easy. It requires complex integration between the meth controller and the DME.

    SAP is better than no methanol safety at all but not as good as an integrated safety. Maybe it's good enough for most. That can be up to debate. So we'll add the SAP option to JB4 firmware just in case someone wants it.
    Meh, everything about meth was too complicated for my tastes. I never actually ran it with a meth tune, but only used it for IAT suppression on OTS maps.

    Good stuff.
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  13. #263
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Blitz535i Click here to enlarge
    I'm going to think about this a bit longer and then ask for some help...it's lost on meClick here to enlarge.
    Think Arnold Schwarzenegger. Get to the Choppa.

    On a more serious note I think we can agree that there are pros and cons to each type of tuning. We can argue all day about how serious or beneficial the individual pros and cons are but ultimately it is the car owner who is responsible for what they use and how they weigh each system against their personal preferences.

    More competition results in faster progress with the side effect of some toes being stepped on. I am interested in the application of a single turbo with the BMS using their methods not because I am a Terry fan boy, but because I am a fan of progress on the platform. That is the reason why I came to this thread and it would be fantastic if we could get back to discussing single turbos and their application with the N54.

  14. #264
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AmonFire Click here to enlarge
    Think Arnold Schwarzenegger. Get to the Choppa.

    On a more serious note I think we can agree that there are pros and cons to each type of tuning. We can argue all day about how serious or beneficial the individual pros and cons are but ultimately it is the car owner who is responsible for what they use and how they weigh each system against their personal preferences.

    More competition results in faster progress with the side effect of some toes being stepped on. I am interested in the application of a single turbo with the BMS using their methods not because I am a Terry fan boy, but because I am a fan of progress on the platform. That is the reason why I came to this thread and it would be fantastic if we could get back to discussing single turbos and their application with the N54.
    Well, Terry's cars are not going to be ready for tuning for another 2-3 weeks. Hence, the off topic :p
    2010 e92 M3 Jet Black | DCT | ESS Tuned | Akrapovic Slip-on | Challenge X-pipe | AFE Intake | 18" Volk TE37SL | KW V3 Coilovers | RPI Scoops | Under Drive Pulley

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  15. #265
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by nafoo Click here to enlarge
    Well, Terry's cars are not going to be ready for tuning for another 2-3 weeks. Hence, the off topic :p
    I hope those cars are ready for NFZ.... I want to see that in action. That's really the only reason why I signed up LOL
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  16. #266
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    I was curious so I looked at some of my spray and pray logs. I see >1/10 of a second between full boost and flow when stabbing it. That’s at least 24 spark events at 5k rpms.

    Even if not worried about knock (cause the DME is so awesome), your performance will suffer due to initial corrections reducing your avg cyl adv for the pull. If you lose boost during a shift, this happens again.

    One disclaimer is that my pump turns on at 5psi so I have some pressure before injection… with the HFS setup I’m not sure if they start the pump prior to spray, so delay could be longer.

  17. #267
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    It is really interesting to see discussion about the (in)abilities of the industry heavyweight of methanol kits, meanwhile leaving out that even without meth the issues are there with a JB type tune.

    Since we're talking about knock here are a few points about the JB and N54 piggybacks in general that should be carefully considered by anyone serious enough about pushing power on this platform with a piggyback:

    - JB4 essentially rides knock sensors. Fact. Its done so for years with multiple engine failures. JB+ is the biggest offender here stacking as much as 3.5-4psi on top of the stock ignition curve. Now THAT is what I'd call a Boost and Pray system or a BAP system for short.

    - Even with the latest G5 ISO board and its firmware, it still, 2+ years after Cobb's release only monitors just Cyl. #1 . Not only that it also bases its auto tuning/sensing logic on it. JB relies heavily on knock feedback to perform any autotuning. How can that be good or not a reason for concern?

    - How many spark events does it take @JoshBoody to get boost low enough from the initial JB map if a person say fills up with ACN 91 and not enough E85 and runs Map 5 for this solution to be deemed safe? What happens to a motor that is knocking like this over time? Failures are not always instant and engines running the JB have failed according to Terry with inconclusive evidence as to why. Can it be too many spark events knocking and the JB auto tuning based on cylinder 1? Or, is it maybe because the JB is seeing only 1/6th of the picture which may be clean while 5/6th of it is knocking itself to death? If it were me (and I used to run both JB and Procede and introduced stacking to the N54 when Cobb's ATR wasn't available yet) I'd say all of these are not only possible but happening on every N54 out there regardless of setup.

    - Aquamist's faisafe can detect partial drops, not just high and low drops in flow. A partial drop signals a drop to the failsafe's WL part of the failsafe window and the failsafe is triggered

    - If you wanted you could expand on the failsafe further and quite easily create an ignition trim table base on the T-MAP sensor signal. It'd allow you to calibrate the ignition timing correction table to your liking for even more of an instant reaction as timing would be pulled by the DME (not CPS as some piggybacks did it in the past). This has been done on other platforms and is certainly possible with simply a flash and the Aquamist failsafe in tandem. No piggyback.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 10-31-2013 at 02:26 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    You mention the JB and fuel inadequate for the tuning, but Terry has been mentioning the autotuning features which the JB would be better than a flash in this situation. I think most knowledgeable people don’t use autotuning anymore, but it’s a fine install/forget method. Nothing wrong with flash, and there’s always an optimal setup based on goals/hardware. If you are 91/meth and trying to maximize meth, progressive tuning is much better feature then 6 cyl monitoring… sure both would be awesome.

    Hey question, you have mentioned linear throttle multiple times, can Cobb map req load truly linear from 0 to 100%. Every log I’ve seen DME is WOT at around 60%. If you say yes, love to see a log.

    I probably would have changed to a flash/SAP setup by now if I didn’t find stacking smoother at part throttle and could go WOT at 100% (actually 90% would be ok).

  19. #269
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    You mention the JB and fuel inadequate for the tuning, but Terry has been mentioning the autotuning features which the JB would be better than a flash in this situation. I think most knowledgeable people don’t use autotuning anymore, but it’s a fine install/forget method.
    You haven't answered my question though. You mentioned 1/10th of a second for meth to turn on and 24 spark events at 5k rpm. How many spark events will it take on Map 5 to auto tune in case something is wrong? As far as I know this is THE map Terry recommends to his E85 guys that are not willing to tinker much. That would be the vast majority of his customers. What happens on Map 1 and Map 2 with ACN 91 guys?

    To fix some of that knock BMS is running to a backend flash. To address fueling BMS is running to a backend flash. Well, there's just boost and VANOS left. Let the flash do it all. That doesn't jive with BMS' marketing/sales of course so the features such as NLS, 2-step, shift light, in-dash gauges are brought up. Fine, neat features, AP has some of those too. That doesn't make the tuning any better. When those aren't enough he brings up the FSB and progressive meth because Aquamist+flash approach is spray and pray. All of a sudden at that point the boost and pray (BAP) issues the JB has are forgotten and progressive meth is what is out there making up for JB's flaws? Give me a break.

    Lastly, by far, the absolute best install/forget method is a custom tune for your modifications and octane. Unless there are hardware issues with the car (which will trigger a code) you have no need to ever datalog the car. If anyone tries to argue this then we should all be datalogging OEM "tunes" as well. Why do the S65 guys not worry about their tuning with S/C kits as much? Who have you seen there datalogging/discussing anything? Last time I checked they were all flash tuned, some of them even running meth.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Nothing wrong with flash, and there’s always an optimal setup based on goals/hardware.
    Agree. JB and its logic from the outside looking in seeing 1/6th of the picture will never be able to replace custom tuning and special attention when dialing in a car.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Hey question, you have mentioned linear throttle multiple times, can Cobb map req load truly linear from 0 to 100%. Every log I’ve seen DME is WOT at around 60%. If you say yes, love to see a log.
    Yes, tables for this are exposed and it is really easy. I don't have a log for you though, sorry.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I probably would have changed to a flash/SAP setup by now if I didn’t find stacking smoother at part throttle and could go WOT at 100% (actually 90% would be ok).
    You already had the Vishnu PWM meth kit and a procede. You couldn't have changed over that easily and it wouldn't have been free to try but ok.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 10-31-2013 at 03:40 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    You haven't answered my question though. You mentioned 1/10th of a second for meth to turn on and 24 spark events at 5k rpm. How many spark events will it take on Map 5 to auto tune in case something is wrong? As far as I know this is THE map Terry recommends to his E85 guys that are not willing to tinker much. That would be the vast majority of his customers. What happens on Map 1 and Map 2 with ACN 91 guys?
    I don't understand your logic here... if there was a fuel issue flash or piggy it would not be an ideal situation for either, but at least the piggy eventually adjusts. With the flash you have to review logs and determine tuning action. I and most run the fuel per their tuning... if we get what's thought to be a bad tank, we drive easy.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Yes, tables for this are exposed and it is really easy. I don't have a log for you though, sorry.
    hmmm, I see a couple of possibilities here... either you are lying, or you don't know (which would be strange), or pro-tuning/beta stuff has more tune adjustability. Well there is a 4th and that's me not knowing what i'm talking about... if this is the case a log at 70% throttle showing <full load should be easy peasy.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    You already had the Vishnu PWM meth kit and a procede. You couldn't have changed over that easily and it wouldn't have been free to try but ok.
    I've run flash alone (with no piggy hardware) and switched back and forth between them trying to determine smoothest/most fun... if flash had been better I may have switched setups... not too tough.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I don't understand your logic here... if there was a fuel issue flash or piggy it would not be an ideal situation for either, but at least the piggy eventually adjusts. With the flash you have to review logs and determine tuning action. I and most run the fuel per their tuning... if we get what's thought to be a bad tank, we drive easy.
    The logic boils down to the fact that it is riding a knock sensor. If it isn't as bad the DME will timing correct and deal with it anyway, on its own. If its really bad there most likely won't be enough time to detune on the piggy and it will detonate. It really is nothing than a safety fantasy you're suggesting.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    hmmm, I see a couple of possibilities here... either you are lying, or you don't know (which would be strange), or pro-tuning/beta stuff has more tune adjustability. Well there is a 4th and that's me not knowing what i'm talking about... if this is the case a log at 70% throttle showing <full load should be easy peasy.
    We've done this for many our our customers especially in Europe that frequent the 'ring and require linear progression to torque delivery in their tunes. This car especially on quick spooling stock turbos and upgraded hybrids become very hard to control around road courses otherwise. Some of those guys are on this forum and if they have time and are paying attention to this thread they might bring it up. It really is one of the easier things to do which we usually leave for last in our custom tunes for those that feel the need for more linear torque management.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    I've run flash alone (with no piggy hardware) and switched back and forth between them trying to determine smoothest/most fun... if flash had been better I may have switched setups... not too tough.
    Once you get to do hundreds of custom tunes you tend to pick up on things. I'd never have the chance to understand the table relationships the way I do today if we didn't do as much much work as we have so far. You simply didn't have the chance to work on the same. That is the only limiting factor in your case.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno
    - JB4 essentially rides knock sensors. Fact. Its done so for years with multiple engine failures. JB+ is the biggest offender here stacking as much as 3.5-4psi on top of the stock ignition curve. Now THAT is what I'd call a Boost and Pray system or a BAP system for short.
    We've tuned 25,000 something cars since 2007 and I've never heard of a single engine failure on pump gas using pump gas tuning with a JB2, JB+, JB3, or JB4. Some of those early JB3 maps were pretty sketchy too compared to what is offered today. On pump using pump gas maps engine damage is not a factor. Every engine failure I've ever heard of has been associated with methanol injection and most of them involving lots of boost. Which is why this discussion is about methanol safety systems -- not pump gas tuning. But on the subject of pump gas tuning I will say our PUMP back end flash is an excellent option for those with poor fuel quality.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno
    - Even with the latest G5 ISO board and its firmware, it still, 2+ years after Cobb's release only monitors just Cyl. #1 . Not only that it also bases its auto tuning/sensing logic on it. JB relies heavily on knock feedback to perform any autotuning. How can that be good or not a reason for concern?
    See comments from previous post regarding timing monitoring.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno
    - How many spark events does it take @JoshBoody to get boost low enough from the initial JB map if a person say fills up with ACN 91 and not enough E85 and runs Map 5 for this solution to be deemed safe? What happens to a motor that is knocking like this over time? Failures are not always instant and engines running the JB have failed according to Terry with inconclusive evidence as to why. Can it be too many spark events knocking and the JB auto tuning based on cylinder 1? Or, is it maybe because the JB is seeing only 1/6th of the picture which may be clean while 5/6th of it is knocking itself to death? If it were me (and I used to run both JB and Procede and introduced stacking to the N54 when Cobb's ATR wasn't available yet) I'd say all of these are not only possible but happening on every N54 out there regardless of setup.

    - Aquamist's faisafe can detect partial drops, not just high and low drops in flow. A partial drop signals a drop to the failsafe's WL part of the failsafe window and the failsafe is triggered

    - If you wanted you could expand on the failsafe further and quite easily create an ignition trim table base on the T-MAP sensor signal. It'd allow you to calibrate the ignition timing correction table to your liking for even more of an instant reaction as timing would be pulled by the DME (not CPS as some piggybacks did it in the past). This has been done on other platforms and is certainly possible with simply a flash and the Aquamist failsafe in tandem. No piggyback.
    You're really missing the entire point of the weakness in how you have the methanol safety setup. Read my posts on the subject again carefully.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 10-31-2013 at 04:42 PM.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    You haven't answered my question though. You mentioned 1/10th of a second for meth to turn on and 24 spark events at 5k rpm. How many spark events will it take on Map 5 to auto tune in case something is wrong? As far as I know this is THE map Terry recommends to his E85 guys that are not willing to tinker much. That would be the vast majority of his customers. What happens on Map 1 and Map 2 with ACN 91 guys?
    It's been asked and answered many times. The DME long term octane adaption is used to back down advance. For awhile we experimented with CPS with lackluster benefit and now for sitiatuons that call for it we suggest the free PUMP back end flash for aggressive 91 octane guys.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno
    To fix some of that knock BMS is running to a backend flash. To address fueling BMS is running to a backend flash. Well, there's just boost and VANOS left. Let the flash do it all. That doesn't jive with BMS' marketing/sales of course so the features such as NLS, 2-step, shift light, in-dash gauges are brought up. Fine, neat features, AP has some of those too. That doesn't make the tuning any better. When those aren't enough he brings up the FSB and progressive meth because Aquamist+flash approach is spray and pray. All of a sudden at that point the boost and pray (BAP) issues the JB has are forgotten and progressive meth is what is out there making up for JB's flaws? Give me a break.
    To say the DME is running fueling is incorrect. The piggyback is still dynamically adjusting fueling and scaling those fuel trims as a function of boost, ethanol mixture, and methanol flow. What happens to fuel trims when meth starts spraying? They start going negative. If using a flash only. A piggyback properly setup will balance them so they stay neutral from zero meth to full meth. Your opinion of having the flash run everything is based on your limited understanding how of the JB4 works. In my opinion the biggest weaknesses of flash tunes alone are the limitations with boost control (no absolute targeting, MT bogs, no 1st gear boost limiting, weak warm up protection, weak over boost safeties, weaker top end curves, etc) and post shift timing. Typically with automatics where it's completely unbearable for some but also with MTs when doing NLS at times. To me those are much bigger problems than the weak methanol safety but one needs to be aware that flash only methanol safety is very limited.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    I am giving up on this discussion until you bring up something factual, as in data. Otherwise you're pushing for bringing up people's names, places, events, exact time/date of when/how engines failed that are a small percentage of that 25k you mentioned. Have you really sold 25k JBs? Amazing.

    Suggest we end this discussion here. It really is pointless at this point and taking away from your time tuning those FFTEC kits.
    Click here to enlarge

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    You guys should just go to Vegas and have some drinks, maybe get a lapdance? Too much stress in here.
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