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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    You are looking at the forced induction kit itself for the safeties but I was referring to the meth kits themselves.
    I'm only aware of one "meth" kit that provides anything beyond a "go/no-go" fail safe. The rest simply say "no pressure = activate bov". You could wire the fail safe into the engine's ignition, or maybe the fuel pump, but you still are not going to be able to drop boost.

    As I mentioned above though, on a "water/meth" system.. it's not really a "methanol" system at that point, it's just water injection.

    I think the problem here is the interpretation of the term "methanol system".. Only HPF uses a methanol system fwiw.

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I think the problem here is the interpretation of the term "methanol system".. Only HPF uses a methanol system fwiw.
    That is part of the problem, but several do have "meth" options which seems to have confused people into grouping them all as the same thing.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    I'm only aware of one "meth" kit that provides anything beyond a "go/no-go" fail safe. The rest simply say "no pressure = activate bov". You could wire the fail safe into the engine's ignition, or maybe the fuel pump, but you still are not going to be able to drop boost.
    If you are using it as fuel this could be a problem. If you are just injecting it to cool the charge turning it off isn't going to harm the motor as the motor doesn't need meth as a fuel source. What more do you need than a flow sensor and a controller that can sense flow interruptions as well as meth level?

    Dropping boost may be something that is possible with the piggybacks, I'm really not sure. Don't see why this couldn't be done or perhaps it has been.

  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    That is part of the problem, but several do have "meth" options which seems to have confused people into grouping them all as the same thing.
    I think confusion in definition is just the issue here. A "methanol system" is not exactly reliable for a "street" car however a "water injection" system is. As you stated, whether the water is being injected to cool the intake charge or not will not damage the motor as the fuel enrichment takes its cues from AIT's.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_i..._%28engines%29

    A "methanol" system would however cause a motor to blow if it had a failure.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What more do you need than a flow sensor and a controller that can sense flow interruptions as well as meth level?
    The way I understand it, methanol fail safes work on a go/no go trigger. They utilize basically a flow meter, if the flow is not adequate, they will trigger a a circuit to close, or open. Mosts systems work in conjunction with an electric BOV that will dump boost should there be a problem. Since our kits don't use that kind of BOV, I guess one could have the trigger kill ignition, but I'm unaware of anyone who has set this up.

    In any case at WOT, once pressure loss occurs, a fail safe may not react quickly enough to save a motor. These things happen faster than you can blink an eye.

  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    In any case at WOT, once pressure loss occurs, a fail safe may not react quickly enough to save a motor. These things happen faster than you can blink an eye.
    I was reading that some of the controllers do have CAN communication abilities. I see no reason why the controller and a tune could not be made to work together and programmed to reduce boost or throttle in case of any sort of warning, meth level, flow, etc.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I was reading that some of the controllers do have CAN communication abilities. I see no reason why the controller and a tune could not be made to work together and programmed to reduce boost or throttle in case of any sort of warning, meth level, flow, etc.
    For starters, there's more than one CAN bus in the car. So you'd have to tap into the right one. Then the ECU would have to be programmed with the ability to look for this specific CAN message, and that would require you to actually write the ECU software, not modify a few tables at fixed known locations and call yourself a tuner. Basically you're talking about designing and writing the entire ECU operating system from scratch in order to give it this one capability. And that's even assuming that the ECU even has a spare I/O you can use to trigger the BOV. I'm willing to bet there is a spare I/O, as most designs like this always add a few spare I/O's into the system. The trouble is finding the spare I/Os. But you're still screwed because you're either going to need to get the original ECU source code from BMW (no fricking way) and the compiler to compile it (no fricking way), or you're going to need to write your own ECU operating system from scratch (no fricking way either). It would be a nice if BMW actually put a table into the ECU that had entry structures in them that had input CAN message == OUTPUT I/O ACTION. But that's just dreaming and I'm sure no such structure even exists (and has spare entry locations) -- and without the DAMOS you'll never find it anyways. So enough of this hypothetical talk about what some other car can do, or some other car did once in some other far away land call "meth tweakers." Talk about what's possible in this specific car. It's ashamed because the Aquamist sounds like a very nice system...but there's just very little chance you can use it the way it you're describing.

    There...that's my one post for the month.

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    For starters, there's more than one CAN bus in the car. So you'd have to tap into the right one. Then the ECU would have to be programmed with the ability to look for this specific CAN message, and that would require you to actually write the ECU software, not modify a few tables at fixed known locations and call yourself a tuner. Basically you're talking about designing and writing the entire ECU operating system from scratch in order to give it this one capability. And that's even assuming that the ECU even has a spare I/O you can use to trigger the BOV. I'm willing to bet there is a spare I/O, as most designs like this always add a few spare I/O's into the system. The trouble is finding the spare I/Os. But you're still screwed because you're either going to need to get the original ECU source code from BMW (no fricking way) and the compiler to compile it (no fricking way), or you're going to need to write your own ECU operating system from scratch (no fricking way either). It would be a nice if BMW actually put a table into the ECU that had entry structures in them that had input CAN message == OUTPUT I/O ACTION. But that's just dreaming and I'm sure no such structure even exists (and has spare entry locations) -- and without the DAMOS you'll never find it anyways. So enough of this hypothetical talk about what some other car can do, or some other car did once in some other far away land call "meth tweakers." Talk about what's possible in this specific car. It's ashamed because the Aquamist sounds like a very nice system...but there's just very little chance you can use it the way it you're describing.

    There...that's my one post for the month.
    Huh? The ECU would not have to be programmed, essentially this would be interacting with a piggy since when talking about adjusting boost based on flow we are already talking about an N54 application. There is already a controller that does this, nothing had to be re-written on the ECU. You once again go way too far into left field as if you are trying to prove you know something that has no application.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Huh? The ECU would not have to be programmed, essentially this would be interacting with a piggy since when talking about adjusting boost based on flow we are already talking about an N54 application. There is already a controller that does this, nothing had to be re-written on the ECU. You once again go way too far into left field as if you are trying to prove you know something that has no application.
    My explanation is perfectly valid for the context and my interpretation of your comments. You wanted a CAN message to interract with the "tune" and (I assume meth) controller...but you offered no explaination how that would occur -- presumably because you do not know how that would occur. So I explained exactly how it would occur both from a software and hardware perspective. I covered all of the bases and explained exactly what would be required from the hardware design and software design to make that work. I do this every day for a living on nearly identical microcontroller systems with hundreds of I/Os and very similar software designs with hysterisis loops (exactly what an ECU does and how it operates). But for some reason using my expertise to explain how it actually works in real life is over the top.

    Look, if that's not what you meant, then by all means explain what you meant, and explain how this "tune" interracts with the CAN bus and this "controller" to cut boost (on the S65, not anything else). No need to go over the top -- as you say -- by attacking people for trying to help others who are interested in learning.

  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    My explanation is perfectly valid for the context and my interpretation of your comments. You wanted a CAN message to interract with the "tune" and (I assume meth) controller...but you offered no explaination how that would occur -- presumably because you do not know how that would occur.
    I'm not even sure why you are complicating things, this seems to be the pattern for you. This isn't complex, the discussion centered around safety with meth and the difference that HPF with their standalones (on a turbo application, ever heard of HPF?) can reduce boost through the standalone. On the N54, another turbo application where meth is popular (although usually injected to cool the charge), predominantly has piggy back tuning and some of those piggy backs have CAN access. Ok? So, some meth controllers already have CAN access and can change injection based on boost. What part of this aren't you getting?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    I do this every day for a living on nearly identical microcontroller systems with hundreds of I/Os and very similar software designs with hysterisis loops (exactly what an ECU does and how it operates). But for some reason using my expertise to explain how it actually works in real life is over the top.
    PG, you are middle management of a small group of people at Nvidia. You don't program anything and you can input/output whatever you the hell you want, I don't understand your proclivity for making things needlessly complex and going off on tangents in some odd desire to share knowledge that isn't applicable.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    then you you explain it. But don't use the N54 as an example because it's irrelevant. We're talking the S65 and MSS60.
    Uh, no, actually, we have discussed the S54, N54, and S65 all in this thread. Come on, keep up.

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I'm not even sure why you are complicating things, this seems to be the pattern for you. This isn't complex, the discussion centered around safety with meth and the difference that HPF with their standalones (on a turbo application, ever heard of HPF?) can reduce boost through the standalone. On the N54, another turbo application where meth is popular (although usually injected to cool the charge), predominantly has piggy back tuning and some of those piggy backs have CAN access. Ok? So, some meth controllers already have CAN access and can change injection based on boost. What part of this aren't you getting?
    Nobody disputes this can work with a standalone ECU. I'll be happy to leave if you want to insult me while helping others try to understand.

    PG, you are middle management of a small group of people at Nvidia. You don't program anything and you can input/output whatever you the hell you want, I don't understand your proclivity for making things needlessly complex and going off on tangents in some odd desire to share knowledge that isn't applicable.
    More insults. And of course you were dead wrong too. I still design and write very complex software on a daily basis. Today was no exception.

    Uh, no, actually, we have discussed the S54, N54, and S65 all in this thread. Come on, keep up.
    Nobody disputes this works on a stand-alone ECU. And yes, I read this entire thread before making any comments at all. To me, the context was clearly S65. I'd still like to hear your explaination of how this is supposed to work on the S65 and MSS60. You still haven't answered that...but you have twice offered insults instead. I'd still like to know what you meant -- without the insults. How will this CAN message interract with the ECU ("tune") and interract with the meth controller to cut boost in case of some type of meth failure on the S65 and MSS60? Just explain it without getting all bent out of shape. If you don't know...just say it.

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    Sorry, but I'm outta here for now. Maybe I'll be back in a couple of weeks to check on your progress. I have a bunch of software to write tonight (actually true).

  11. #61
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    Classic...

    I didn't read any of it though...

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    Nobody disputes this can work with a standalone ECU. I'll be happy to leave if you want to insult me while helping others try to understand.
    Then you should probably at this point understand we were talking about more than just the S65 and specifically about meth and adjusting boost with turbos.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    More insults. And of course you were dead wrong too. I still design and write very complex software on a daily basis. Today was no exception.
    Who's insulting you? That is the reality of it. What complex software would you need to design? You know what, I don't know, I don't care, but I just haven't seen any programming prowess to substantiate anything not that it matters as it is off topic.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    obody disputes this works on a stand-alone ECU. And yes, I read this entire thread before making any comments at all. To me, the context was clearly S65. I'd still like to hear your explaination of how this is supposed to work on the S65 and MSS60. You still haven't answered that...but you have twice offered insults instead. I'd still like to know what you meant -- without the insults. How will this CAN message interract with the ECU ("tune") and interract with the meth controller to cut boost in case of some type of meth failure on the S65 and MSS60? Just explain it without getting all bent out of shape. If you don't know...just say it.
    Well, I guess you are pretty new around here as ccykes was referring to the HPF S54 setup specifically as he is educated on it since he is purchasing it. So, we went on a bit of an aside there. I never said this would work with the S65 ecu. I'm not saying it can't be done either though. We gave specific examples of what already exists regarding meth on BMW applications regarding what could and has been done.

    I'm not sure what you need explained here. I thought the stand alone explanation was pretty clear. I thought cutting boost to protect the motor was also clear. I also thought it was clear when it was stated that progressive meth controllers already are reading boost and have CAN access. Why you are limiting this to an S65 application I have no idea. If other platforms in the BMW community have solutions, don't see why the S65 is special and can't adopt some of the tried and true approaches.

  13. #63
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    Nice one Mike:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MspiredM3
    I've never read so many stupid comments from people that actually think they know what they are talking about in one place.

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    Something I learned recently, BMW changed the rod bearings from '08 to '09. If the car had the '08 bearings, this may have played a part. If you look at the motor, it tells you this was more than just a spark plug issue.

    The HKS plugs have been used successfully in newer vehicles that have a similar knock control system from what I understand. I wish we had more info on the car.

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    OH OH! More bull$#@!! Threads are going off topic.
    Click here to enlarge



    EURO 04 M3 Current Mods:GC DAs, Eibach Sways, PF RTAB's, RE RCAs, INTRAVEE II, Black Roundels, ///MFEST Badges, Depo's, Screen protector for NAV display, VCSL Bumper + Race Lip & CF Trunk & CF Rear Diffusor, DIETZ TV in Motion, SS= V1 Headers + catless pipes + X-Pipe + SS Sport Exhaust, Z8 Starter Button, Lamin-X, OEM CSL interior, OEM CSL Steering, OEM CSL Intake, OEM CSL Roof, MSS54HP + OEM CSL Tune, BBS CH's, LIGHTWERKZ, 355mm ST40 BBK, BW Oil Cooler....

  16. #66
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    So what's the status of the car? Did AA do a tear down and determine the cause of the failure yet?
    "I hate you, you, and especially you and hope that all the bad things in life happen to you and only you!"

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    I love how people blame the kit for this failure.

    I dunno I am not used to seeing this, I hung around many domestics in my year and when their motors pop they never blame vortech or procharger, they just move on because they know they fuucked up.

    In my opinion, as soon as you put a blower on a car like this YOU ARE AT FAULT. Just IMO, because the engine is being put under a lot more stress.

    There are some exceptions namely recalled items, items known to cause failures etc... But even then you cannot say the motor wouldnt have survived without the extra boost, it may have survived it's entire life; how are you going to prove otherwise?

    Just because we are dealing with more expensive cars and more expensive setups doesnt mean we can start blaming manufacturers.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DBFIU Click here to enlarge
    I love how people blame the kit for this failure.

    I dunno I am not used to seeing this, I hung around many domestics in my year and when their motors pop they never blame vortech or procharger, they just move on because they know they fuucked up.

    In my opinion, as soon as you put a blower on a car like this YOU ARE AT FAULT. Just IMO, because the engine is being put under a lot more stress.

    There are some exceptions namely recalled items, items known to cause failures etc... But even then you cannot say the motor wouldnt have survived without the extra boost, it may have survived it's entire life; how are you going to prove otherwise?

    Just because we are dealing with more expensive cars and more expensive setups doesnt mean we can start blaming manufacturers.
    I agree, but the underlying difference between a Chevy V8 and an M3 is that the Chevy motor costs significantly less to rebuild. So when people get hit with the bill its not an easy pill to swallow. Also a supercharger setup for a Ford Mustang or Chevy Camaro costs alot less than an M, manufacturers claim they spend countless hours in the R&D stage to perfect these kits and make them "safe", hence their hefty price tag. So when some guy's motor gives after paying 10-12k on top of 70 he paid for the car or $1000 a month lease he's irrate.

    If I had to take a guess, I'd say the motor was defective to begin with and supercharger exacerbated the problem...
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    I feel what you're saying, it is a cheaper pond modding a domestic. And I would be pissed if a 10k supercharger just destroyed a 70k car. But that doesnt escape the fact that you bought that 10k supercharger and destroyed that 70k car.

    No guarantee in the world is going to give you 100% certainty that what you're doing will not hamper your engine, not from the manufacturer themselves. It's just how modding works, any manufacturer that guarantees 100% certainty hasnt been doing this long enough (Im sure AA made them sign some paperwork before this install to cover their asses). At the end of the day, this is a mod like any other, an expensive and risky one.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Something I learned recently, BMW changed the rod bearings from '08 to '09. If the car had the '08 bearings, this may have played a part. If you look at the motor, it tells you this was more than just a spark plug issue.

    The HKS plugs have been used successfully in newer vehicles that have a similar knock control system from what I understand. I wish we had more info on the car.
    Have new photos been released What do you see that now makes you certain its more than the plugs? What does your 180 stem from? You were pretty certain the plugs (or "knock") were the issue in the beginning of this thread.

    How many motors have you diagnosed (correctly) via the interwebz that makes you such an expert?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tron Click here to enlarge
    Have new photos been released What do you see that now makes you certain its more than the plugs? What does your 180 stem from? You were pretty certain the plugs (or "knock") were the issue in the beginning of this thread.

    How many motors have you diagnosed (correctly) via the interwebz that makes you such an expert?
    No new photos have been release to my knowledge. Speaking with a couple of tuners who have far more hands on experience with these motors and SC's led me to taking a broader look.

    I would not call it a "180" as I have been careful to say we will know more once AA comments on it as we don't know what it is for sure. When I learned of the rod bearing change it made the issue a bit more complex. Additionally, I learned these plugs have been run successfully in several applications.

    I'm not ruling out the part the plugs play in knock control, they do, but this level of damage implies far more than the plugs.

    I'm not claiming to be an expert but thanks for calling me one, I'm here to learn as well. I much prefer to keep an open mind and a discussion going we can all learn from rather than simply taking all the comments negatively. Perhaps you would like to tell us all about what you think happened with your vast S65 knowledge from the interwebz?

    If you saw the thread where this originated from, you would understand the emphasis those users were placing on the plugs as the culprit. I'm saying there may be more to it than that and knowing the bearing were changed may give some added insight especially if this vehicle falls into the range of having the previous ones. Some added insight, you know, to maybe help you diagnose it for us? I'm waiting in anticipation to see what you think on the matter.

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    bad tune.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LuckyEff Click here to enlarge
    bad tune.
    You are not the only person thinking this but we just don't know yet. Seems like this has gotten really quiet from everyone involved.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Monster135 Click here to enlarge
    I agree, but the underlying difference between a Chevy V8 and an M3 is that the Chevy motor costs significantly less to rebuild.
    Then unless you have the money to fix a blown motor from a European sports car, you shouldn't be modding it. I have said the same thing countless times, I simply don't get where people think they deserve a new motor when they mod it, push it hard and it blows up.

    I started out on domestics and when a motor blew, we just fixed it and moved on. I don't know of anyone who ever blamed a vendor. The BMW mod crowd is the first I have ever seen this before with.

    Edit:

    I remember when VF was getting bad mouthed on the forums for a few blown motors. HPF's has now had enough motors blow they estimate 2-4% failure rate on Stage 1 and 2. AA has had several documented motors blow. When one takes a step back and looks at this objectively.. ALL the vendors have had motors blow.. and ALL of them have had a similar proportion of blown motors to kits sold. This is just what happens, whether a V8 Camaro or BMW M3.. $#@! blows up. When you mod a car to levels that are putting out in some cases double the HP, this is a risk we take.

    Modding isn't accessorizing your clothing by buying a tie or shoes.. your changing the entire scope of the original design.
    Last edited by ccsykes; 10-10-2010 at 11:56 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Then unless you have the money to fix a blown motor from a European sports car, you shouldn't be modding it. I have said the same thing countless times, I simply don't get where people think they deserve a new motor when they mod it, push it hard and it blows up.

    ... $#@! blows up. When you mod a car to levels that are putting out in some cases double the HP, this is a risk we take.

    Modding isn't accessorizing your clothing by buying a tie or shoes.. your changing the entire scope of the original design.
    I concur, if you can't afford HPV, don't sleep with her. Click here to enlarge

    As far as what really happened, I can't get over the uncanny silence.
    Maybe we should ask this guy, he seems to 'obviously' know something we don't:

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SuperlativE90 Click here to enlarge
    You guys, this blown motor was obviously at the fault of the driver and not the active kit. Omar has been nothing but honest and quite frankly, it is obvious that the owner even admitted the blown motor as being his fault. It is a shame that this incident was posted on the forum because it is a detriment to AA's very high (and well deserved) reputation. STOP TALKING SMACK BASED OFF OF YOUR UNEDUCATED ASSUMPTIONS.
    I saw the original thread until it disappeared, but I must have missed 'the owner' admitting it was his fault.

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