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  1. #26
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    I like Meth. HI 5
    Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge

  2. #27
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    can you copy/paste comments.. some of us cant read over there..

  3. #28
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    Just painful reading that $#@!, let the wanna-be auto intellectuals stay there where they belong. People like BMRLVR are the entire problem with that place.

    AA doesn't even design the kit around meth, that is something that was added on later. Secondly, the competition does have kits without meth, they give you the choice if you want it or not. What is this guy even talking about?

    Can't run meth on a street application? Ok Click here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by MSpiredM3 Click here to enlarge
    Damn! Straight through the freakin oil pan!

    I agree with you Sticky, I wouldn't mess with the stock plugs on these cars!
    I thought they where using the HKS spark pluges!!!!!


    I do hope the owner of the car get taken care of.
    Current: 964 WB, 993, Panamera Turbo

  5. #30
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    Pretty much! Glad I'm not alone thinking that... what a tool

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Just painful reading that $#@!, let the wanna-be auto intellectuals stay there where they belong. People like BMRLVR are the entire problem with that place.

    AA doesn't even design the kit around meth, that is something that was added on later. Secondly, the competition does have kits without meth, they give you the choice if you want it or not. What is this guy even talking about?

    Can't run meth on a street application? Ok Click here to enlarge
    Ya typical newb spewing bull$#@!.. I like the part about why no OEM sells a car with meth installed are you kidding me??? Those people should have their comments deleted and buy a clue on amazon.
    Last edited by JonMartin; 09-26-2010 at 11:53 PM.
    Kees on M5 Board is my bitch....

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    can you copy/paste comments.. some of us cant read over there..
    Here u go...

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR Click here to enlarge
    Methanol injection is a band-aid fix to a poorly engineered kit. If ESS can make their systems work without methanol why can't the competition.

    Look at those plugs...... They were running extremely lean..... The kit was definitely a contributing factor to this failure. Anyone who thinks different is not all there. AFR's, IAT's and combustion temperatures need to be controlled very closely on an FI system being installed on an engine running 12:1 Compression. Methanol injection is not reliable enough to control this on a street driven car. On a race car methanol is good for squeezing out the last few HP but on a street car it is not ideal.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR Click here to enlarge
    Well sir I deal with 3500BHP FI engines on a daily basis..... it is my job. If you can't control Intake air temperatures and Exhaust Gas temperatures with a good intercooler/aftercooler and proper tuning it is not a good application for a street driven car.

    Methanol is great for a race application but not for a street driven application. There is just too many variables to contend with...... have you ever seen an OEM turbocharged engine running methanol? When reliability is a big consideration (as I think it should be for any kit that is being produced for the E90/92/93 M3) Methanol injection is just not Ideal.

    I am betting it is a 95% chance that this failed rod was do to severe Detenation near BDC. The combustion forces and cylinder pressures are huge when detenation occurs near BDC. The problem is that at BDC there is so much cylinder volume at this point in the stroke for the combustion event to expand. Couple this with the fact that both valves are closed and the piston has little or no room to travel to react to the pressures created by this explosion. In this instance the weakest link has to give...... The Rod. Shy of lifting the head off of the engine the rod is the only part that will give to these kind of forces.

    Just visualize this: The intake valve has just closed and the cylinder is filled with a high temperature mixture of pressurized Fuel/Air/Methanol. The high temperatures caused by running boost are enough for detenation to occur. The mixture ignites near BDC and the combustion is so violent (two-three times a normal combustion event near TDC) the rod has no choice but to bend.

    You see with methanol all it takes is a split second hiccup in the methanol delivery or one tank of off spec fuel and you have a ticking time bomb. Methanol is good but not for a daily driven street car.
    Kees on M5 Board is my bitch....

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR
    If you can't control Intake air temperatures and Exhaust Gas temperatures with a good intercooler/aftercooler and proper tuning it is not a good application for a street driven car.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR
    ethanol injection is a band-aid fix to a poorly engineered kit. If ESS can make their systems work without methanol why can't the competition.
    Who has a kit that you need meth for? Nobody, as a matter of fact, every kit is available without meth. So if you add meth to an ESS kit it becomes a poorly tuned street application the moment it is hooked up? Are you sober?

    Ethanol is not a band-air for a poorly engineered kit, smack yourself with your keyboard, please.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR
    Well sir I deal with 3500BHP FI engines on a daily basis.....
    And? Did you hang out in a shop building Indy 500 motors when you were a kid too? This is your job? With what you have said so far I don't expect you to keep it for very long. I'm still laughing about the ethanol being used to mask poorly designed kits comment.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLCR
    have you ever seen an OEM turbocharged engine running methanol?
    Have you ever seen an OEM M motor running a supercharger?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMRLVR
    You see with methanol all it takes is a split second hiccup in the methanol delivery or one tank of off spec fuel and you have a ticking time bomb.
    Not true. You are confusing meth being used as part of the fuel system to make up for a maxed out fuel system, which it isn't in the SC S65 applications, to using meth as a supplement to cool the intake charge. I don't give a crap if you sit on top of 3500 hp motors or if you make love to them, you need to stop typing. I mean, since, like, soooooo many n54's running meth kits are blowing left and right being ticking time bombs and all.

  8. #33
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    Kind of amusing, E46fanatics deleted the thread about this. What a joke...

  9. #34
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    It's really tough to diagnose an engine failure over the internet, but judging by the spark plugs and the holes in the block a rod failure is 100x more likely than an issue with the tune... Until they tear everything down and confirm, we won't know but that meth hysteria on the other forum is just silly.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by spdu4ea Click here to enlarge
    It's really tough to diagnose an engine failure over the internet, but judging by the spark plugs and the holes in the block a rod failure is 100x more likely than an issue with the tune... Until they tear everything down and confirm, we won't know but that meth hysteria on the other forum is just silly.
    Exactly, very well said.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Just painful reading that $#@!, let the wanna-be auto intellectuals stay there where they belong. People like BMRLVR are the entire problem with that place.

    AA doesn't even design the kit around meth, that is something that was added on later. Secondly, the competition does have kits without meth, they give you the choice if you want it or not. What is this guy even talking about?

    Can't run meth on a street application? Ok Click here to enlarge
    I love the part where he tries to justify his mad internet skills by telling us he works on 3500hp engines (I'm guessing either diesel engines on ships or some kind of turbine) and that meth is bad because it's not used by auto manufacturers in OEM cars. Holy $#@!, that is a new brand of stupid.

    It's like someone ranting about how screwdrivers are useless and only hammers are good.

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fstop7 Click here to enlarge
    and that meth is bad because it's not used by auto manufacturers in OEM cars.
    His logic is flawed. He talks smack on ethanol as well when we have how many flex-fuel cars being hyped all the time by OEM's? Plus, who cares about an OEM application on what is an aftermarket setup anyway? How many OEM supercharged 12.0:1 compression SC cars are there? His same line of thinking would make boosting the motor invalid.

    Just best to not even read that nonsense. He says he "deals" with 3500 hp motors. Deals with them how? He is the secretary at the place?

  13. #38
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    Thought I'd post this here since my $#@!post account may be banned as usual

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by PencilGeek Click here to enlarge
    That's his opinion and many people probably feel the same way. My point was that he never said meth caused detonation...and I still don't see post #45 that way. But that's OK, let's move on



    I think the proper way to ask the question would be as follows: to run 10 PSI on 91 octane pump gas, is meth required? I think the answer is definitely yes while you're implying the answer is no.
    Ya talk to Niterider see what he thinks about that idea... He's Daily Driven no meth ~10psi. Been driving his car around HARD since before competitions kits even existed.

    Well Jon, the files are needed to prove they have nothing to hide and that your claim is true. All I've ever seen is evidence of hiding things. We can't just accept your word for the "safe timing" claim without the files. Only a few hours ago, you said detonation only damages pistons and not connecting rods and that was fundamentally wrong. That claim alone tells me that whoever told you that doesn't even understand the basics of detonation and motors-101 -- let alone "safe timing" and meth injection.
    No one needs to take my word for it And I'm not sure Gintani needs to prove anything, their products have spoke for themselves their customers love them and are happy. If people are THAT worried about Gintani being shady then I'm sure Gintani doesn't mind losing that customer to the competition so that those people can go ahead and reverse engineer some other kit before they buy it. It will save Gintani alot of headaches from some Joe know-it-all. IMO those are the type of people I (and I'm sure most business) would rather not deal with.

    I disagree Jon. Too few kits with too few miles on them. But I agree, no more about Gintani. Back to AA.
    Disagree all you want I rather have a hand full of cars daily driven with 20-30k miles on them each vs 100 cars with 1,000 miles on them each. But you know what they say opinions are like $#@!s...
    Last edited by JonMartin; 09-27-2010 at 03:27 AM.
    Kees on M5 Board is my bitch....

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    His logic is flawed. He talks smack on ethanol as well when we have how many flex-fuel cars being hyped all the time by OEM's? Plus, who cares about an OEM application on what is an aftermarket setup anyway? How many OEM supercharged 12.0:1 compression SC cars are there? His same line of thinking would make boosting the motor invalid.

    Just best to not even read that nonsense. He says he "deals" with 3500 hp motors. Deals with them how? He is the secretary at the place?
    Good point I responded with that point on the other board.
    Kees on M5 Board is my bitch....

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JonMartin Click here to enlarge
    Good point I responded with that point on the other board.
    Nice to try and fight the battle for the right reasons but just a waste of time dealing with them.

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Nice to try and fight the battle for the right reasons but just a waste of time dealing with them.
    Well I got bored of playing COD
    Kees on M5 Board is my bitch....

  17. #42
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    Who owned this shop car anyway? Somebody must know these guys. And if this incident happened a while ago as they say, wouldn't we have a diagnosis yet? I smell something fishy, LOL. I need a 'band-aid," too ... for my nose!

    Thread disappearance... seriously? Yeah, we're not going to take notice of that. Morons.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Look, it is almost an impossible uphill battle but the point is to not let BMW off the hook for their defects just because you are modded.

    Additionally, people should not expect BMW to cover their asses. You have to pay to play. If BMW is at fault here, I fully expect them to pay. If they aren't, I fully expect the owner to pay as he should take personal responsibility and accountability for his actions.
    Perfectly said. It makes me sick when people people try to get their cars warrantied because of their own $#@! ups. "Oh we blew the motor? No problem we'll return it back to stock and get it warrantied!" That's bs! Passing the buck directly effects others. When factory defects arise (i.e. HFFP) we get $#@!ed with because BMW is sick and tired of covering everyone and in turn they become less and less lenient with modded cars. If AA's kit is responsible, then AA should repair the motor or sort it out with the owner, if the car had a factory defect i.e. poor engine build (which is highly likely) then it should fall on BMW.

    It's too early to tell what caused it, but being a tester car I doubt it was in the greatest condition when AA received it.
    "I hate you, you, and especially you and hope that all the bad things in life happen to you and only you!"

  19. #44
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NatAsp-M3 Click here to enlarge
    And if this incident happened a while ago as they say, wouldn't we have a diagnosis yet? I smell something fishy, LOL. I need a 'band-aid," too ... for my nose!

    Thread disappearance... seriously? Yeah, we're not going to take notice of that. Morons.
    This whole thing just seems weird and now all of a sudden threads are disappearing about it, wtf is going on?

  20. #45
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    Actually the guy is right in a certain way depending on how you view what he is saying.

    Yes, we all know you can run meth in a street car. I'm having a stage 3 HPF kit installed, so yes I not only want, but plan to use meth. However, while using meth I am adding an extra level of potential risks. Those risks include electrical failure to the pump, pump failure, line failure, electronic component failure etc.. If a car is properly tuned using a proper mechanical cooling method such as inter-cooling or after-cooling your risks for potential failure are dramatically dropped. Any failure within that system would work within the safety parameters of the engine management system.

    When you loose meth at WOT on a boosted high horsepower application you run a great risk of destroying your motor despite any fail safes you may install. Because HPF uses a stand alone EMS, they can offer slightly better fail safes than a F/I car using the DME. For example the HPF "beep" we have heard so much about. However, even a "beep" won't stop a catastrophic event.

    So that brings me to the conclusion, is methanol bad for a "street car".. well depending on your definition of a "street" car. Too me, a "street" car is one that will provide dependable, comfortable transportation for a adequate length of time. A 600 HP, boosted, methanol injected car is not going to meet that definition.

    I'll be the first guy to tell you, my car is not a street car.. it's a highly modified high performance car that just happens to be legal to drive on the street.

  21. #46
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Those risks include electrical failure to the pump, pump failure, line failure, electronic component failure etc.. If a car is properly tuned using a proper mechanical cooling method such as inter-cooling or after-cooling your risks for potential failure are dramatically dropped. Any failure within that system would work within the safety parameters of the engine management system.
    He mentions none of that, simply makes an incorrect generalization. Frankly, many of the kits have the safeties you mentioned built in, yet he just ignores that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    cause HPF uses a stand alone EMS, they can offer slightly better fail safes than a F/I car using the DME.
    I don't know about that, it would depend on application. For the S54, definitely.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    it's a highly modified high performance car that just happens to be legal to drive on the street.
    Many people running meth happen to run it on cars that meet your definition. Frankly, most people in the BMW community, including the person you quoted, are way behind on the topic of meth. Diesel performance communities seem to be way more up to date on the topic for example and would laugh someone like that right off the forum.

  22. #47
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    He mentions none of that, simply makes an incorrect generalization. Frankly, many of the kits have the safeties you mentioned built in, yet he is just ignores that.
    Well I agree that the poster "BMRLVR" did a poor job of stating his position, however I though the arguments made by "Pencilgeek" were quite objective.

    I would have to say I disagree though about meth safeties. With the exception of HPF's in which the EMS controls the methanol, none of the other F/I kits for our car have truly adequate fail safes. They have fail safes yes, but not adequate to totally prevent the potential for a catastrophic event.

  23. #48
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    With the exception of HPF's in which the EMS controls the methanol, none of the other F/I kits for our car have truly adequate fail safes. They have fail safes yes, but not adequate to totally prevent the potential for a catastrophic event.
    You are looking at the forced induction kit itself for the safeties but I was referring to the meth kits themselves.

  24. #49
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I don't know about that, it would depend on application. For the S54, definitely.
    Oh one last thing.. what AA uses isn't technically a "methanol" system. It was designed to lower IAT's in order to make more power. That is technically a water injection system. The proper mix is 51% water to 49% methanol. Methanol is used to aide in atomization since the methanol will pretty much evaporate instantly.

    So if we really want to start getting technical, the only "meth" system I am aware of is HPF's which uses it as a source of fuel.

    The purpose of either system is not the same.

  25. #50
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    Oh one last thing.. what AA uses isn't technically a "methanol" system. It was designed to lower IAT's in order to make more power. That is technically a water injection system. The proper mix is 51% water to 49% methanol. Methanol is used to aide in atomization since the methanol will pretty much evaporate instantly.
    Exactly, I mentioned this earlier. There is a big difference between injecting it to cool the charge and using it as fuel. That is yet another thing our friend over on the other site overlooked.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ccsykes Click here to enlarge
    So if we really want to start getting technical, the only "meth" system I am aware of is HPF's which uses it as a source of fuel.
    Absolutely, exactly as I stated earlier. There is a difference, and it is a shame some people aren't even paying attention to it and grouping all "meth" together.

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