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  1. #1
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    Smile Procede and my Update

    Hey guys. Thought I'd share this good read with the rest of you. Also I have an update for my car, meth components are all installed with the new m10 jet, and we have set up maps 2 and 3 (3 being a dedicated meth map, that is used as a transition between 1 and 2.) We also set it up with the latest firmware, so now my in-dash videos will have boost and AFR readings on their respective gauges. Map 2 is 19psi i believe. I will try to hit a dyno soon to see what she runs on pumpgas/meth. should be interesting, the car is basically at 95%. and when the new cores arrive for the i/c (shipped out Thursday) and abid welds up the end-tanks, we drop that in and fix my tensioner pulley on the belt causing it to oscillate <1mm. After that the car will be 100% and ready for a mile event, dyno, road-course, 1/4th you name it. ill try to get a dyno in before that to see the differences in the i/c and also, have a better comparison to my stock turbo runs with the same i/c. anyway without further a due, here is shiv's update to the procede:

    Hi guys,
    There has been a lot of discussion as to subjective "smoothness" when it comes to different tunes. But what most people are feeling is the relationship between applied throttle angle (your right foot) and boost onset (the moment at which the engine transitions from off boost to on boost operation). As well as the applied throttle angle that full boost is demanded.


    The Stock Tune
    Generally speaking, with the factory n54/n55 tune, boost is not requested until applied throttle goes beyond 40-50%. Which means that the first half of the throttle pedal, the engine feels like a naturally aspirated lowish compression 3.0l engine. Nothing very inspiring. But easy enough to drive smoothly for those with heavy boots or heavy feet.

    Beyond 40-50%, the DME starts to reqest boost. The more throttle, the more boost demand. But by 80-90% throttle, the factory tune requests full boost. Which means that the last 10-20% of throttle doesn't do anything. But with only 6-8psi of boost to play with, this delayed boost onset (40-50% throttle) and nonlinear boost demand ramp up isn't particularly bothersome or noticeable. In fact, most may find the on/off boost transitions exciting. And the fact that full power is available before full throttle, the tune gives the impression that the engine is more powerful than it really is.

    For cars equipped with a Sport button (n55), the applied TSP boost onset point is bumped up from the standard 40-50% to 30-40%. A small change. But enough to make the engine feel more "eager" and willing to respond. And with full boost is requested at an earlier 70-80% applied throttle, the driver experiences full power at a lower applied throttle angle. The end result is a car that is not only more eager to respond to throttle input but one that also feels more powerful. Despite offering no more power at full throttle.

    Click here to enlarge

    Procede v4
    Given the it's unique abilities to integrated with the factory DME via the CAN bus and to drive the solenoids directly, the Procede can literally re-write the rules on throttle/boost relationships. Unlike other piggybacks, it is not influenced by throttle/boost nonlinearities in the factory mapping. This means it does not scale up this nonlinearities as it scales up boost target. And unlike what seems to be the case with reflashes (and of course other piggybacks as well), the Procede also rewrites the boost control algorthims (namely Proportional, Integral and Derivitive corrections) to be more suitable and effective in high boost applications. Which is why it controls 20psi applications just as effectively as it controls 10psi applications. With virtually no sizeable positive boost errors that would otherwise result in unwanted throttle closure/oscillations. Especially at partial throttle which is where most of us drive on a daily basis.

    In re-writing the throttle/boost relationship, we made it a point of spreading the no-boost and full-boost demand points over a wide-as-possible range. This meant we wanted boost onset to come at an early 15-20% (depending on RPM) with full boost not being demanded until 100% throttle. This gave us an 80-85% range at which to "spread out" the boost demand. And since most of our customers run at 12-20psi of boost pressure, spreading this range out of a wide range of applied throttle makes power easier to modulate and more controllable. At high power levels, there is no reason to add any nonlinearities to make the car feel even more "eager" or powerful as it would just make the power harder to modulate.

    New Update:
    Taking things a bit further, we now give the user the ability to adjust the boost onset point. So instead of having boost target start its upwards ramp at the usual 15-20% applied throttle, the user can make it so that boost onset occurs much later. The advantage of this is that some users will find it nice to have more throttle to play with before boost is demanded. This will make a car feel "SMOOTHER" since the Procede will be less sensitive to what your right foot is doing at the beginning of the throttle range. The downside is that once the boost onset threshold is crossed, there is less range to "spread out" the boost demand. Of course, different users, with different applications, will have different ideal settings.

    From what I've found/heard, users with 6ATs or 7DTCs will find running a more delayed boost onset point will find that it's easier to drive the car smoothly since since they are less "in control" of their cars. While us old school 6MT guys like the standard early boost onset since we are in full control of how our car accelerates (ie, gear selection).

    So what we did is add a new User Adjustable entry called "Boost Reponse" (see attached pic). This is adjustable from 0 to 100%. 100% is standard v4 mapping. Which means boost onset will start early in the applied throttle range (15-20%). With this setting, the car will be very responsive and predictable to the throttle. Something that has always been the trademark of Procede v4.

    Decreasing this value will delay the boost onset point. Setting it to 50% will make the throttle point for boost onset increase to 40-45%. And from that point onwards (to 100%), boost demand will increase linearly.

    And decreasing this value all the way to 0% will delay boost onset to 60-70% throttle. And from that point onwards (to 100%) boost demand will increase linearly.

    So What Does This All Mean?
    -If you love the way v4 drives, don't make any changes. Objectively speaking, this is ideal as it follows the orders of your right foot perfectly.

    -If you want a more "re-flash" like throttle/boost relationship (more responsive during the first half of the throttle pedal travel and more responsive during the second half of travel), then set this value to say, 50%. It will have all the perceived "smoothness" of a reflash but with ALL the on-tap power, boost targeting accuracy and throttle control of the Procede v4. This setting may be nice for those with heavy right foots, 6AT or 7DCT transmissions.

    -If you want something that feels stock like until you put your foot closer to the floor, set this value to 0

    The nice thing is that none of these setting will change power output at WOT. Or will even effect your 1/4 mile performance. But it will give you vastly different subjective driving experiences.

    And we have made it so that you can adjust each map independently. So, in essense, you can make map1 a smoother, less responsive map (by lowering throttle response) and map2 more responsive (by leaving throttle response at 100%). And just change them on-the-fly depending on what you need/want

    The new firware update (#29) and User Software (v4.20) will be posted up tomorrow.

    cheers,
    shiv
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  2. #2
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    GREAT! SO in summary, its a "sprint-booster" effect.

    could have said it in much less words.

    No offense to OddJob. i know your just keeping us up-to-date.

    PLz correct me if im wrong

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    Actually it's the same thing as our pedal target user adjustable. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    GREAT! SO in summary, its a "sprint-booster" effect.

    could have said it in much less words.

    No offense to OddJob. i know your just keeping us up-to-date.

    PLz correct me if im wrong
    Incorrect. A sprint boost amplifies the applied throttle signal. This creates a nonlinearity where only 1/2 pedal travel is necessary to get full pedal travel results.

    The new user adjustable, on the other hand, changes the applied throttle angle at which boost onset is requested. From that point onwards, boost target is linear all the way to 100% applied throttle. So nope, it's not effectively like the jb3's pedal target adjustable either.

  5. #5
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Incorrect. A sprint boost amplifies the applied throttle signal. This creates a nonlinearity where only 1/2 pedal travel is necessary to get full pedal travel results.

    The new user adjustable, on the other hand, changes the applied throttle angle at which boost onset is requested. From that point onwards, boost target is linear all the way to 100% applied throttle. So nope, it's not effectively like the jb3's pedal target adjustable either.
    The pedal target lets the user shift up or down the partial throttle boost target to their liking/driving style. So a setting of 0 would be a stock boost curve up until 100% throttle, and a setting of 100% would give the full tuned target at 50% throttle input. Seems like a more useful implementation but to each their own. Click here to enlarge

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    so, again, a different way of doing something with the same end result?

    pretty sure ive heard that before somewhere

    (I LOVE IT when you 2 go at it! Click here to enlarge )

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    3 out of 5 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    From my understanding, this is a lot more useful than the BMS and sprintbooster solutions... this does not call on 100% power at 50% throttle, but rather tries to allow the user to decide exactly when he / she wants the boost to be called upon. It is a big step towards driveability. For those who want a perfectly linear throttle, leave it at 100. But if you have a heavy foot and want power to start building linearly at 30% throttle you can simply adjust the variable

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    4 out of 6 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
    From my understanding, this is a lot more useful than the BMS and sprintbooster solutions... this does not call on 100% power at 50% throttle, but rather tries to allow the user to decide exactly when he / she wants the boost to be called upon. It is a big step towards driveability. For those who want a perfectly linear throttle, leave it at 100. But if you have a heavy foot and want power to start building linearly at 30% throttle you can simply adjust the variable
    Exactly. Someone get this man his prize Click here to enlarge

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    Interesting! I'll be exerting that much less effort, or my tires will be gone that much quicker Click here to enlarge

    Quick question though, are there any downsides for this?

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    Thumbs up

    Oshiva Bin Tooning

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    3 out of 6 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DarkPhantom Click here to enlarge
    Interesting! I'll be exerting that much less effort, or my tires will be gone that much quicker Click here to enlarge

    Quick question though, are there any downsides for this?
    The more your reduce boost response (the higher applied throttle need to induce boost onset), the less applied throttle range you will have to linearize between 0psi and max boost. So i if you make it so that boost onset requires 60% applied throttle, only the remaining 40% will be used to linearize between min boost (0psi) and max boost. And if you are running 15+psi, it will be harder to modulate since a small change in appied throttle will have a relatively large effect on boost target.

    Ultimately, it boils down to what feels better and that will vary from person to person.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by encinitas Click here to enlarge
    Oshiva Bin Tooning
    huh?

  13. #13
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    I like your approach shiv. I am a MT driver as well, and once I'm in gear and in my full "boost rpm range" it would be nice to feel like the waste-gates are responding directly to my right foot, and I hate that 20% dead area on the end, feels like my Z did before I set the timing right.

    I guess I would be one of the "100" guys. So once we are in the "boost onset zone" (throttle after 20%?) and my Boost Response is at 100%, my boost pressure will be linear following the throttle % as my foot pushes down, with 100% throttle being 100% target boost and no dead zone at the end of travel?
    Last edited by fundahl; 09-24-2010 at 05:08 PM.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    I guess I would be one of the "100" guys. So once we are in the "boost onset zone" (throttle after 20%?) and my Boost Response is at 100%, my boost pressure will be linear following the throttle % as my foot pushes down, with 100% throttle being 100% target boost and no dead zone at the end of travel?
    Yes precisely. FWIW, that 20% onset throttle value isn't fixed at 20%. It actually moves around slightly depending on current RPM, transmission type and barometric pressure. But yes, beyond this onset point, boost demand ramps linearly from 0psi to max boost (at 100% applied throttle).

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
    From my understanding, this is a lot more useful than the BMS and sprintbooster solutions... this does not call on 100% power at 50% throttle, but rather tries to allow the user to decide exactly when he / she wants the boost to be called upon. It is a big step towards driveability. For those who want a perfectly linear throttle, leave it at 100. But if you have a heavy foot and want power to start building linearly at 30% throttle you can simply adjust the variable
    On the JB3 a PT setting of 0-40 will function the same way. Shifting the start of the target up as a function of pedal input but leaving 100% at 100% pedal input. It's not until 60-100 that the 100% target shifts down. 50%, the default, is pretty linear from 0-100% input. The sprintboost is another animal all together an remaps the throttle input to pedal travel, like our N52 PBX system.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    -shiv
    p.s. I got a negative rep point for my response to Brey335i. Nice.
    Here's some negative rep for complaining about getting negative rep. Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    On the JB3 a PT setting of 0-40 will function the same way. Shifting the start of the target up as a function of pedal input but leaving 100% at 100% pedal input. It's not until 60-100 that the 100% target shifts down. 50%, the default, is pretty linear from 0-100% input. The sprintboost is another animal all together an remaps the throttle input to pedal travel, like our N52 PBX system.
    I should add the factory target (pretune) is 100% at around 60% throttle input.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Exactly. Someone get this man his prize Click here to enlarge
    "someone"? wouldn't that be you?
    Last edited by alpinedevil335; 09-24-2010 at 07:42 PM. Reason: typo

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    3 more negative rep points. Love you guys... Click here to enlarge
    I'm fine tuning it to prevent abuse, these types of situations help in that regard. Here, let me give you a negative to make sure it is working correctly.

    Oh, and read this: http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...1516#post51516

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    i hope you have enough of a rep point buffer shiv, these guys are out for your throat Click here to enlarge im sure sticky will keep you alive and unbanned if it does come to people neg-repping for the sake of jb vs procede.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by oddjob2021 Click here to enlarge
    i hope you have enough of a rep point buffer shiv, these guys are out for your throat Click here to enlarge im sure sticky will keep you alive and unbanned if it does come to people neg-repping for the sake of jb vs procede.
    No one is going to neg rep him for the sake of jb vs. procede, other than LostMarine and Terry it seems.

    The only issue I have right now is the rep spread option is not compatible with the programming for the reputation system we have in each post (the thumbs up and down). So, that variable needs to be programmed into it to take it into account but it is not quite so simple.

    Basically, what needs to change is for the system to force you to have to spread rep around so you can't focus on repping the same person over and over. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed right now and will prevent the abuse or targeting of certain members like we just saw which, frankly, is unfair to Shiv and does not follow the intention of the system.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No one is going to neg rep him for the sake of jb vs. procede, other than LostMarine and Terry it seems.

    The only issue I have right now is the rep spread option is not compatible with the programming for the reputation system we have in each post (the thumbs up and down). So, that variable needs to be programmed into it to take it into account but it is not quite so simple.

    Basically, what needs to change is for the system to force you to have to spread rep around so you can't focus on repping the same person over and over. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed right now and will prevent the abuse or targeting of certain members like we just saw which, frankly, is unfair to Shiv and does not follow the intention of the system.
    great idea, it makes sense and should work. i hope you can implement it. thanks for trying to keep this thread on topic guys: procede questions/comments about the update? any questions/comments on my new set-up guys? or just awaiting hard evidence like a dyno, video or slip.
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    Public death threats werent enough so negative repping seems like the only logical next step.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Public death threats werent enough so negative repping seems like the only logical next step.
    Click here to enlargeGet over it already you pussy!(for lack of a better "cleaner" word)Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    more negative rep points. Love you guys...Click here to enlarge
    This isn't E90post where everyone loves you. Sorry.

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    Odd Job, Sorry for going off topic on your thread, bro. I am interested in your set up and want to hear about how everything is working out for you. Hopefully for the best too. I'm pretty sure that the V4 will treat you better than it's designer will. When I owned it I had absolutely no complaints with the tune itself.

    In this thread I negged Shiv for his statement on the V4 vs. a "Reflash".

    You have his sales approach (i.e. everything else is inferior) vs. Terry's admonition that there are a lot of people out there that will prefer a flash over either piggy. Instead of cutting down the flash - he builds something (CT tool) to complement it.

    We all know that you both make good products. One creator just seems to be a lot less arrogant and quite a bit more helpful.

    AlpineDevil is also correct - we are not e90 lemmings on this site - and, to be here, you must tolerate us (Jason won't bail your rear out by deleting critical posts). So suck it up buttercup.

    People negged me the other day as well for another thread where you were ignoring a fan - Don't cry for me Argentina.

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