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  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M5 has been ahead in the straightline battle actually thanks to the DCT and also because the M5 put out more power than the M157 stock for stock. Now the M157 got a boost but so did the S63TU. I think the M will win the roll ons and the E63 will win the 1/4 mile sprint thanks to all wheel drive.
    What i was talking about was modified cars. The M157 currently dominates the s63tu and theres really no argument its like a 150 wtq advantage and a good amount of wheel horsepower dependant on cars/dynos. Also track times you have m157 on stock turbos touching mid/high 10's and the s63tu hasnt gotten close. I really like the s63tu and its higher redline with ability to keep power going in the higher revs compared to the stump puller M157. It just seems the aftermarket is really slow with them or there isnt much wiggle room on stock turbos.

    We really need to keep our eye on the Audis cant believe they got into the 10's with the s8 the rs6 should be a monster and could come out on top

  2. #27
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    The s63 hasn't even gotten going.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The s63 hasn't even gotten going.
    And when it does the M157 will be on to the next stage it will just be playing catch up they barely have a legit edu tune while the m157 is getting upgraded stock housing turbos. I wish theyd hurry up and make me have no choice but to pull the trigger on a alpine white/ opal white interior m6 coupe i keep building on bmwusa !

    Have you heard tuners are having issues with the m157 and 4matic system? seems benz built in something in the software in the PTU to restrict big power numbers. They are getting the huge torque number of the m157 until 4k rpm where the protection kicks in and severely cuts torque. Hope they find a solution to it if not thats no fun

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Yes i agree if were talking about stock cars. The MCT in the E63 isnt as bad as people make it seem i have a c63 coupe with it and its a great trans it shifts in under 100 milliseconds and the bmw dct claims the DCT shifts in 80 milliseconds your talking about a .02 difference nothing that a human will feel. Ive driven both and they both are just ridiculously fast when upshifting WOT

    The MCT def has the advantage as far as strength weistec is testing JRCarts C63 BS at 790WHP on the stock trans with a positive displacement blower on a 6.2 Liter motor we know thats a heavy combo for the trans to handle. So far its been holding up and it if so they will offer more power for mct users. Thats on a completely STOCK MCT
    Alpha says you can run the alpha 9 package 780 whp and much more torque from the m157 on a stock trans.
    The MCT is an incredibly strong transmission almost unheard of
    You know yourself the BMW DCT isnt the strongest out there.

    Having driven both i will say the advantage the DCT has is in responsiveness especially on downshifts and being able to skip multiple gears. The mct gets caught up and its hard to go down multiple gears thats its main down fall. Also the software must be off because theres a delay from when you pull the paddle on a mct to when it actually shifts its frustrating. But when it shifts it shifts fast
    There really isn't a "shift time" for a true dual clutch trasmission... People try to measure what's faster SMG or DCT, and it's senseless. They are measuring the jerk from one shift to the next, which is not the shift, it's the re-application of torque from the engine.

    One clutch is always engaged - here's a comment from Dr. Faust from Getrag:

    In PowerShift this torque break time is not existent, so we can say it is zero. And this is the main reason for the very good shift quality.

    What is talked about shift time in PowerShift/DCT usually means just the phase the engine speed needs to ramp from old to new speed according to the gear ratios, with tractive force available.



    More in detail the main phases for (up-) shift in PowerShift are:

    1 Torque handover, from offgoing clutch to oncoming clutch, with tractive force

    2 Speed phase, just pulling engine speed down to the lower engine speed in higher gear, with tractive force (shift time)

    "tq break time 0 ms"



    For AMT the main phases are:
    1 Tq ramp-down of clutch tq ramp
    2 Disengagement of old gear tq break
    3 Dynchronizing and engagement of new gear tq break
    4 Tq ramp-up of clutch tq ramp
    "tq break time xxx ms"

  5. #30
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    In other words, during the actual shift there are 0 milleseconds of 100% tractive force loss. However, there is a torque loss - albeit minor. Point is, while an MCT (automatic/SMG/whatever) is shifting - it has NO tractive force, while the DSG car is still pulling. That's why it pwns. Click here to enlarge

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    And when it does the M157 will be on to the next stage it will just be playing catch up they barely have a legit edu tune while the m157 is getting upgraded stock housing turbos. I wish theyd hurry up and make me have no choice but to pull the trigger on a alpine white/ opal white interior m6 coupe i keep building on bmwusa !

    Have you heard tuners are having issues with the m157 and 4matic system? seems benz built in something in the software in the PTU to restrict big power numbers. They are getting the huge torque number of the m157 until 4k rpm where the protection kicks in and severely cuts torque. Hope they find a solution to it if not thats no fun
    It's tuning holding it back right now the M157 has been out longer. We need to see what upgraded turbos do on it...

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mycoupe Click here to enlarge
    Who cares if you trap a faster speed if you aren't trapping a quicker time as well?!?
    Haha, it shows how a roll on pull would end. ET and 0-60 show ability to launch, trap speed shows power to weight ratio.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    In other words, during the actual shift there are 0 milleseconds of 100% tractive force loss. However, there is a torque loss - albeit minor. Point is, while an MCT (automatic/SMG/whatever) is shifting - it has NO tractive force, while the DSG car is still pulling. That's why it pwns. Click here to enlarge
    Right i understand that it will be faster but how much faster? Its not nearly faster enough to make up for 150 wtq and almost 100whp especially when that car has the MCT which is very fast in its own way.

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    In other words, during the actual shift there are 0 milleseconds of 100% tractive force loss. However, there is a torque loss - albeit minor. Point is, while an MCT (automatic/SMG/whatever) is shifting - it has NO tractive force, while the DSG car is still pulling. That's why it pwns. Click here to enlarge
    And their is also the strength aspect i mentioned. Nobody has yet upgraded the bmw DCT to handle any big power. The MCT can handle almost 800 whp on a completely stock trans and they have upgrades available to easily handle over 1000 wtq/whp ill take the 100 millisecond shift with a very brief pause.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    And their is also the strength aspect i mentioned. Nobody has yet upgraded the bmw DCT to handle any big power. The MCT can handle almost 800 whp on a completely stock trans and they have upgrades available to easily handle over 1000 wtq/whp ill take the 100 millisecond shift with a very brief pause.
    The M5s/M6's are handling what's thrown at them just fine so far. We'll see what happens with bigger power but I mean GTR's can do it so others can as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M5s/M6's are handling what's thrown at them just fine so far. We'll see what happens with bigger power but I mean GTR's can do it so others can as well.
    Just because GTR's can do it doesnt translate into any DCT car can as well. Well any trans can be built but will it is the question the aftermarket with the gtr is alot bigger. Porsche has the PDK and doesnt have a proven upgrade yet either the demand is just not there. Ill take the MCT "slower" shift times with 800 whp capability completely stock for now. Hope someone can prove me wrong and finally get it going

  12. #37
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Just because GTR's can do it doesnt translate into any DCT car can as well. Well any trans can be built but will it is the question the aftermarket with the gtr is alot bigger. Porsche has the PDK and doesnt have a proven upgrade yet either the demand is just not there. Ill take the MCT "slower" shift times with 800 whp capability completely stock for now. Hope someone can prove me wrong and finally get it going
    It translates into dual clutches being able to be upgraded. Nobody is pushing the BMW DCT... well, except for what, me? You'll see shortly what it can handle once properly upgraded.

    It's all about demand as you stated.

    I'll take the higher performance option every time.

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Also went to go watch the video again it doesnt make sense. The fastest ive seen a stock m5 run was 11.9 at a drag strip. Most likely looking at low 12's on the street. The E63 S WAGON which is 400 pounds heavier than the sedan ran an 11.7 in the motor trend test. The sedan will be even quicker when you take the weight off. What that shows me is that from a dig the m5 wont be able to pass the E63 S until after the quarter mile and after 120 miles per hour. I expect a stock M5 to walk a stock E63 S on the highway.
    You need to do some catching up on the M5. The fastest stock run I've seen is 11.68 at 124. That was in crappy conditions. Completely stock car. If you can't break 12 seconds in an M5 you shouldn't be allowed to drive anything with an M badge on it.

    Backroads? No contest the M5. Weighs less, better balanced, less unsprung weight, handling is absolutely a genuine argument. Us BMW guys actually care about handling. You AMG guys just discovered what that was Click here to enlarge

    M5s are at 550/5xx stock, not modded. Tunes have not been demonstrated to actually do anything. The cars are making more like 640 hp, 560 lb ft at the crank. DCT is definitely shifting quicker than MCT in the E63, and like it or not, that makes a difference in acceleration and in the way you can bend the car to your will during spirited driving. I've driven a C63, does shift fast, but there is a slight delay, from what I've seen the M DCT box is literally telepathic. Haven't had the chance to drive one yet but I don't expect it to disappoint.

    The M157 has turbo upgrades available, and tunes. So far the S63tu has...some exhaust stuff and an intake. Tunes haven't really been shown to exist. Once AMS finishes their turbo upgrade, I'm expecting 800 hp at the crank, and about 650 lb. ft. That's plenty. I would put money on the M5 on the highway any day. Sure the E63 will launch harder, no question. But I'm not launching my car from a dead stop when I drive it. I'm usually rolling onto the throttle while already moving. Once the cars are moving, the M5 will walk the E63.

    None of this is to say the E63 is a bad car, not at all. It's a great car...but I think, in ways that are important to me at least, the M5 is better.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by leveraged sellout Click here to enlarge
    You need to do some catching up on the M5. The fastest stock run I've seen is 11.68 at 124. That was in crappy conditions. Completely stock car. If you can't break 12 seconds in an M5 you shouldn't be allowed to drive anything with an M badge on it.

    Backroads? No contest the M5. Weighs less, better balanced, less unsprung weight, handling is absolutely a genuine argument. Us BMW guys actually care about handling. You AMG guys just discovered what that was Click here to enlarge

    M5s are at 550/5xx stock, not modded. Tunes have not been demonstrated to actually do anything. The cars are making more like 640 hp, 560 lb ft at the crank. DCT is definitely shifting quicker than MCT in the E63, and like it or not, that makes a difference in acceleration and in the way you can bend the car to your will during spirited driving. I've driven a C63, does shift fast, but there is a slight delay, from what I've seen the M DCT box is literally telepathic. Haven't had the chance to drive one yet but I don't expect it to disappoint.

    The M157 has turbo upgrades available, and tunes. So far the S63tu has...some exhaust stuff and an intake. Tunes haven't really been shown to exist. Once AMS finishes their turbo upgrade, I'm expecting 800 hp at the crank, and about 650 lb. ft. That's plenty. I would put money on the M5 on the highway any day. Sure the E63 will launch harder, no question. But I'm not launching my car from a dead stop when I drive it. I'm usually rolling onto the throttle while already moving. Once the cars are moving, the M5 will walk the E63.

    None of this is to say the E63 is a bad car, not at all. It's a great car...but I think, in ways that are important to me at least, the M5 is better.

    This is a very good post but I disagree that tunes have been not been demonstrated to do anything.

    The weight is also basically a wash.

  15. #40
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by leveraged sellout Click here to enlarge
    You need to do some catching up on the M5. The fastest stock run I've seen is 11.68 at 124. That was in crappy conditions. Completely stock car. If you can't break 12 seconds in an M5 you shouldn't be allowed to drive anything with an M badge on it.

    Backroads? No contest the M5. Weighs less, better balanced, less unsprung weight, handling is absolutely a genuine argument. Us BMW guys actually care about handling. You AMG guys just discovered what that was Click here to enlarge

    M5s are at 550/5xx stock, not modded. Tunes have not been demonstrated to actually do anything. The cars are making more like 640 hp, 560 lb ft at the crank. DCT is definitely shifting quicker than MCT in the E63, and like it or not, that makes a difference in acceleration and in the way you can bend the car to your will during spirited driving. I've driven a C63, does shift fast, but there is a slight delay, from what I've seen the M DCT box is literally telepathic. Haven't had the chance to drive one yet but I don't expect it to disappoint.

    The M157 has turbo upgrades available, and tunes. So far the S63tu has...some exhaust stuff and an intake. Tunes haven't really been shown to exist. Once AMS finishes their turbo upgrade, I'm expecting 800 hp at the crank, and about 650 lb. ft. That's plenty. I would put money on the M5 on the highway any day. Sure the E63 will launch harder, no question. But I'm not launching my car from a dead stop when I drive it. I'm usually rolling onto the throttle while already moving. Once the cars are moving, the M5 will walk the E63.

    None of this is to say the E63 is a bad car, not at all. It's a great car...but I think, in ways that are important to me at least, the M5 is better.
    Right so 11.68 and the fastest one currently belongs to forum member Ghost who ran 11.3 with full exhaust/downpipe and PP-P tune. Still nowhere close to the 10.7 that renntech has run with just down pipes/exhaust, filters, and tune. Its not even in the same league .6 seconds and the renntech cars trap over 130mph.

    Us BMW guys? Now your starting to sound like a fanboy I've owned both bmw and benzes I'm not dedicated to either brand i buy whats currently best according to MY OPINION which obv might not be the same for you so lets not generalize. I think you need to do some catching up on AMG they have been kicking M's ass for the last few years. The C63 coupe went around the ring faster than the m3 coupe. They have no answer for the Black Series besides the very limited GTS even that the BS has proved faster times at the ring.

    Unsprung weight? how so ? you are aware the E63 also has the option of carbon ceramic brakes if thats what your looking for. Every reviewer has said the rwd E63 beat the m5 at its own game the m5 is commonly said to be numb, poor balance etc. Maybe this competition package might change that but the jury is still out on it.
    Plus like i said with all this power in such heavy cars I'm willing to bet us non professional drivers would be faster with the AWD with its ability to put that power down out of corners especially in the real world where its not a perfectly paved and banked turn. I think your stuck in the E46 vs C55 days try out an AMG one day you'll be surprised.

    Don't get me wrong their is no doubt the DCT is superior but not by the crazy margin most make it seem like thats all i was pointing out. Plus for modding MCT is MUCH stronger

    Until i see something out for the m5 ill say well see ! Hope they prove me wrong its only makes the industry better

  16. #41
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    O yea and the SLS Black Series if you want to talk about ultimate balance and handling that you bmw guys like to talk so much about. There is nothing from them in the same league

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    And you do realize AMS already released turbo upgrade for the m157 right? On a completely stock car its made 790 WHEEL not crank on 93 octane. And that stock down to the filters and cats only the turbo changed. That means when fully uncorked on some proper fuel that will be a hell of a lot more. Than when combined with these upgrades they have coming out it will be very tough to keep up being so far behind.

    http://www.benzboost.com/showthread....nd-intercooler

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    Motor Trend Beat us all to it!


  19. #44
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    @Sticky haha you got to admit I pretty much nailed it! .4 seconds quicker through the quarter mile and only .4 slower trap speed which is not much so that video everyone keeps referring to is obviously BS
    @leveraged sellout so much for you BMW guys and your handling lol exactly the same stats and the AMG wasn't equipped with the optional carbon ceramic brakes that the m5 had so the AMG would have even better numbers. Seems like your the one who needs to read up on current AMG's and let that stereotype go. And exactly as I said the m5 is said to be numb and out of control while the AMG has much better feel, feels lighter, and puts it power down much better coming out of corners with AWD. These are 4500 pound cars with over 600 hp.

    So we know from a dig the m5 has no chance for the AMG to keep its advantage on a roll all it's needs is a 40whp advantage which the m157 has over the m stock and much more if both are modified.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    @Sticky haha you got to admit I pretty much nailed it! .4 seconds quicker through the quarter mile and only .4 slower trap speed which is not much so that video everyone keeps referring to is obviously BS
    @leveraged sellout so much for you BMW guys and your handling lol exactly the same stats and the AMG wasn't equipped with the optional carbon ceramic brakes that the m5 had so the AMG would have even better numbers. Seems like your the one who needs to read up on current AMG's and let that stereotype go. And exactly as I said the m5 is said to be numb and out of control while the AMG has much better feel, feels lighter, and puts it power down much better coming out of corners with AWD. These are 4500 pound cars with over 600 hp.

    So we know from a dig the m5 has no chance for the AMG to keep its advantage on a roll all it's needs is a 40whp advantage which the m157 has over the m stock and much more if both are modified.

    I would have to say that the trap speed shows that the M5 would walk the C63 from a roll. You have the weight disadvantage and the drivetrain loss disadvantage; some extra HP to make up the difference, but you can see it's gaining on the Merc after launch from the times it's putting out. If they are both modified - I have no idea which is better. One is AWD the other isn't - they are truly different cars, but I guess it's what you would be looking at in this range.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I would have to say that the trap speed shows that the M5 would walk the C63 from a roll. You have the weight disadvantage and the drivetrain loss disadvantage; some extra HP to make up the difference, but you can see it's gaining on the Merc after launch from the times it's putting out. If they are both modified - I have no idea which is better. One is AWD the other isn't - they are truly different cars, but I guess it's what you would be looking at in this range.
    Did you watch the full video? The difference is only .4 mph in trap speed that is pretty much a wash on a roll and from a dig it would be no contest. They m5 would just stop the pull of the E63 at 121 mph and to make up the space the E63 put on it until that point would prob require runs to be over 170 mph. Even than who knows the E class has better aerodynamics than the f10 so that could cancel out any difference.

    and from drag racing we all know sometimes more grip equals better time but actually lowers trap speed sometimes so that .4 mph is a wash. The weight difference is 100 pounds the e63 puts out over 40 wheel more at high speeds weight doesn't matter much it's all gearing/power/aero

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    BMW is still just making catch up attempts at this point. You've already ruined it BMW. I'd take the benz.

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    I will gladly take the benz over the bimmer. Sorry but my BMW fanboy status has left the building a LONG time ago!

    Besides I think the Benz looks better.

    11.5 at 128.7 for the Viper GTS man imagine if that car could hook up!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by onisyndicate Click here to enlarge
    I will gladly take the benz over the bimmer. Sorry but my BMW fanboy status has left the building a LONG time ago!

    Besides I think the Benz looks better.

    11.5 at 128.7 for the Viper GTS man imagine if that car could hook up!
    Glad some people can be open minded !! I've had MB's and Bimmers they're both amazing cars but I'm not committed to either of them I'll get what's best at the time and IMO Benz has the upper hand this round. Have a feeling the M4 will be bmw's comeback tho

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ezec63 Click here to enlarge
    Glad some people can be open minded !! I've had MB's and Bimmers they're both amazing cars but I'm not committed to either of them I'll get what's best at the time and IMO Benz has the upper hand this round. Have a feeling the M4 will be bmw's comeback tho

    I'm excited for the m4. Edmunds says the e90 m3 is outdate when they compared it to the z51 corvette stingray.

    I hope the m4 gives the Z51 a run for its damn money. Plus the tunning pontiental of the m4 being turbo'd will be really nice!

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