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  1. #1
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    6 out of 6 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No

    Intake Temperature Comparison - DCI vs Mr.5 Intake

    This is just some data I collected before making a Mr.5 Intake to compare the before and after. Though it may be useful to others.

    DCI (No Boost)
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    Mr.5 Intake (No Boost)
    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


    Not safe for pictures, sry.

    DCI (Under Boost)
    -Intake temperature increased up to +158 F

    Mr.5 Intake (under Boost)
    - Intake temperature decreased towards ambient temperature ~90 F.
    - WGDC decreased a little.


    Some more data on wrapping charge pipe coming up up soon.


    I would like to thank @BuraQ for e-tuning my car, he is turning into a pro.
    Cobb E30 / DCI / VRSF Downpipes / VRSF 7" Intercooler / Walbro LPFP / E85

  2. #2
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    My experiments have echoed your results as well. WGDC is less with Mr.5, and temps are lower. Mr.5 is by all means a superior intake (at least how I made mine). How much real world difference? Not sure. I will say that with the BMS cabin filter/cowl delete, the under hood temps are significantly lower. I can only presume this will help the DCI pull in cooler air than it currently does.

    I do like the sound of a DCI, and miss the ease of removal/various engine parts access though.

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    Looks like the same result as our testing. Identical temperatures at the throttle body even during cruise where you'd expect the open intake to be much hotter.

    http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showpo...99&postcount=1

    I do like the Mr5 intake approach better than any of the aftermarket "closed" systems though. A couple years ago I did some 40-120mph testing with it and although the results were basically identical to the DCI it at least showed the factory airbox with the 3x4" inlet restriction removed can flow as well as a DCI. If you want a quieter intake that is the best way to get it IMHO.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Terry,

    Respectfully speaking, a few points:

    1: My data shows that in very hot climates, the DCI is much more likely to quickly raise intake temps to ludicrous levels. This can happen with any intake but happens fastest with a DCI in a car that's idling/running (of course). The Mr.5 takes significantly longer to heat soak. I saw 184*F air intake temps idling on a hot day. Mr.5 bought me over 30 degrees, but more importanly, as soon as I came to a stop with DCI's I'd see my intake temps start climbing 5, 10, 20, 30 degrees. Light turns green and they'd begin to drop. With Mr.5, I'd come to a stop and the temps would climb 2, 3, 5, 10 degrees and then I'd be on my way. I have noticed that very few people acknowledge this aspect of performance -it's normally all about open hood dynos and highway rolls.

    2: Dynos that are open hood (most) don't really show what the cone filters will see real world driving around. I concur that in general this isn't a big deal but again, in a hot climate such as Arizona, where the ambient is already over 110, it can and will make a significant difference. I made significantly more torque down low with the Mr.5. With new tires and the DCI's I was on the threshold of traction changing gears. Same map same tank of gas Mr.5 made her get squiggly repeatably.

    3: I agree that once normalized, highway driving I didn't see any difference. I would suspect that deleting the cowl and allowing a lot more engine bay air flow will only help the DCI's.


    If I were in a cooler climate I'd just stick with the DCI's. I may go back to them for the winter anyway. I know I know, spray meth for cooler intake temps, I just don't want to. My Mr.5 version cost more than a DCI and is definitely a pain in the ass to install, but I'd say in very hot climates the nod goes to Mr.5. I doubt it would be nearly as significant in cooler climates. This wasn't meant to be a "DCI vs Mr.5" or DCI slamming post; I like (and own many of) your products and appreciate your contributions to the platform.

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    Can anyone show wtf a MR.5 intake is... LOL look slike a stock intake tome.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Can anyone show wtf a MR.5 intake is... LOL look slike a stock intake tome.
    Its the stock box, plus a remote filter (typically in the front bumper/fog light area) connected via ducting.

    EDIT: You can see the ducting to the remote filter, but not the filter itself, running to the right of the stock box in the OP's picture.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ATP Click here to enlarge
    Its the stock box, plus a remote filter (typically in the front bumper/fog light area) connected via ducting.

    EDIT: You can see the ducting to the remote filter, but not the filter itself, running to the right of the stock box in the OP's picture.
    Yea, I see the ducting that goes under the power steering. But meh, great idea if your place never rains. I can't drive slow and always watching the floor for a puddle that just might $#@! up the turbos lol.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Yea, I see the ducting that goes under the power steering. But meh, great idea if your place never rains. I can't drive slow and always watching the floor for a puddle that just might $#@! up the turbos lol.
    I could be wrong but I would be surprised if its "easy" to suck water up through the remote filter. It is behind the bumper and above the undertray which sould prevent most splashing. If you were to bury the cone in water, I would suspect that more air would just flow through the front of the hood like stock. Sucking in more air from that area would require less effort that sucking up water from the remote filter.

    Either way though, to each their own.

  9. #9
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    If I were in a cooler climate I'd just stick with the DCI's. I may go back to them for the winter anyway. I know I know, spray meth for cooler intake temps, I just don't want to. My Mr.5 version cost more than a DCI and is definitely a pain in the ass to install, but I'd say in very hot climates the nod goes to Mr.5. I doubt it would be nearly as significant in cooler climates. This wasn't meant to be a "DCI vs Mr.5" or DCI slamming post; I like (and own many of) your products and appreciate your contributions to the platform.
    I have not taken it as such. I like the Mr5 approach. I think I gave Craig the idea for it years ago, lol. I was just pointing out the data you presented mirrors the data I took and shared years ago. In my testing the rate of IAT increase at idle with the hood down (which of course is irrelevant as we don't race at idle) was not significantly different. I believe there is a log by time in my link above with each configuration. And I did on road performance testing which showed no net performance gain on the road. I think your photo above showing 150 degree inlet temps and 106 degree outlet temps nicely showcases the fallacy at the heart of the hot air myth. That engine air temperature is proportional only to filter air temperature. In fact there are many factors that contribute to inlet temperature in a turbocharged application. The largest factor when under vacuum is heat abortion from the metal heatsync that are your turbochargers. Exhaust gasses heat the turbochargers up and inlet air slowly passes by absorbing that heat. If in motion most of that heat is then exchanged back in the intercooler but if at a stand still air intake temps increase dramatically regardless of turbo inlet temperature. A good test to perform if bored is the 20 min idle test. Hot air myth theory dictates that engine inlet temps after a long idle period should be much higher with the open intake vs. the closed intake. Test it it out. Click here to enlarge

    Anyway run that Mr5 intake with confidence as it performed as well as the DCI in my performance testing. While I was never able to prove it offered any advantage over the DCI from a performance perspective I was not able to prove it was any worse either. I should also note I only tested up to 90 degree ambient. I expect the hotter the ambient the less of a difference there is between regulated engine bay temperatures and outside air. But I did not verify that.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 10-17-2013 at 02:09 PM. Reason: fixed a typo
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  10. #10
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Yea, I see the ducting that goes under the power steering. But meh, great idea if your place never rains. I can't drive slow and always watching the floor for a puddle that just might $#@! up the turbos lol.
    Mr.5 has 2 air inlets; the stock inlet and the additional filter located in the bumper area. As such, should you drive through a puddle deep enough to cause concern, rather than pull water though your bumper air filter you would just pull through the stock inlet, as sucking water is considerably harder than sucking air. FWIW this has been gone over many many times and is intuitive if you give the concept a little time to settle. Also, it's pretty rare that I'm WOT in conditions that would encourage these very deep puddles. I suspect the same for nearly all of us, except someone on their way to a crash. Rest assured though, as you keep your foot in it (and need all the air intake you can get) through the 6" deep puddles in your modified twin turbo 3 liter BMW, you do not have to be concerned with hydrolocking your motor, nor do you have to rue the day you chose to skip the DCI's. You may have other things to worry about though.

  11. #11
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ATP Click here to enlarge
    I could be wrong but I would be surprised if its "easy" to suck water up through the remote filter. It is behind the bumper and above the undertray which sould prevent most splashing. If you were to bury the cone in water, I would suspect that more air would just flow through the front of the hood like stock. Sucking in more air from that area would require less effort that sucking up water from the remote filter.

    Either way though, to each their own.
    Definitely, I know what you mean. These turbo's tho man. They suck babies up from the floor LOL. As long as it has an underbelly tray. It should be fine then.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, S55s, N63s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please click here for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    Mr.5 has 2 air inlets; the stock inlet and the additional filter located in the bumper area. As such, should you drive through a puddle deep enough to cause concern, rather than pull water though your bumper air filter you would just pull through the stock inlet, as sucking water is considerably harder than sucking air. FWIW this has been gone over many many times and is intuitive if you give the concept a little time to settle. Also, it's pretty rare that I'm WOT in conditions that would encourage these very deep puddles. I suspect the same for nearly all of us, except someone on their way to a crash. Rest assured though, as you keep your foot in it (and need all the air intake you can get) through the 6" deep puddles in your modified twin turbo 3 liter BMW, you do not have to be concerned with hydrolocking your motor, nor do you have to rue the day you chose to skip the DCI's. You may have other things to worry about though.
    Haha, I know where you guys are coming from and I strongly agree with you all. Maybe these turbo's are just not strong enough to suck up water like I think it does. Still though, any splash of water could be sucked in easily. Either being a puddle or not, it's happened to my buddies vette on mild rainy day. That's not even a turbo car...
    Burger Motorsports
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    A DCI setup causes the turbos to over work compared to a CAI setup:

    With the DCI installed runing Cobb's OTS E30 map his temps would shoot out of control, it was the most bizare thing I have ever seen. I remember another member @Preezzy when he was running Cobb by itself he was having IAT issues also and he was running a DCI setup

    OTS E30 with the DCI installed, MAF req was significantly higher 415-420ish @ 5800 RPMs and IAT's were rocketing to 150+f and with massive timing pulls. With MR.5 Intake installed his MAF req stayed sub 400 @ 6k RPMs, with IATs at 120ishf, healthy timing, and Waste Gates reduction compared to the DCI setup. Dont forget we live in South Florida

    I have my personal car running with almost 20%+ more WGDC Adder & Ceiling to see MAF req 415-420ish @ 5800 RPMs vs the OTS E30 with DCI seeing the same.

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    Maybe it needs some sort of heat sheild? Should I fab one up?
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BuraQ Click here to enlarge
    A DCI setup causes the turbos to over work compared to a CAI setup:

    With the DCI installed runing Cobb's OTS E30 map his temps would shoot out of control, it was the most bizare thing I have ever seen. I remember another member @Preezzy when he was running Cobb by itself he was having IAT issues also and he was running a DCI setup

    OTS E30 with the DCI installed, MAF req was significantly higher 415-420ish @ 5800 RPMs and IAT's were rocketing to 150+f and with massive timing pulls. With MR.5 Intake installed his MAF req stayed sub 400 @ 6k RPMs, with IATs at 120ishf, healthy timing, and Waste Gates reduction compared to the DCI setup. Dont forget we live in South Florida

    I have my personal car running with almost 20%+ more WGDC Adder & Ceiling to see MAF req 415-420ish @ 5800 RPMs vs the OTS E30 with DCI seeing the same.
    Says the guy running 116mph.... Click here to enlarge

    I've tracked vacuum at the wastegates with both methods and the DCI was actually lower at higher boost levels. Which makes sense as the turbos push air a lot more efficiently than they suck it in. So you must be doign something wrong on the tuning end if its making that much of a dutycycle difference.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    Maybe it needs some sort of heat sheild? Should I fab one up?
    Tested it, waste of time. This whole discussion is circa 2008. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Tested it, waste of time. This whole discussion is circa 2008. Click here to enlarge
    Thank you for saving me time and money! LOL
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    Retaining the stock snorkel and intake scoops will at least force some air into the desired area while moving.

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    I've done a lot of Cobb logging on DCI and the stock intake, with stock IC and Helix. Besides all the stuff everybody already knows, what has surprised me is how much the hardware after the IC heat soaks when there's not much airflow through the engine bay. Once everything in there has gotten really hot, you have to get moving and pull some air through the system for several minutes even with a good IC before you start seeing good temps as reported by Cobb, with the stock intake or DCI.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bimmer305 Click here to enlarge
    I would like to thank @BuraQ for e-tuning my car, he is turning into a pro.
    Did I read this right?
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    The sucking of water should be a non issue. As long as your long flooring it in the rain through puddles for some reason it air will be sucked through the path of least resistance which would be the factory intake path. Even with the remote filter completely submerged you should be able to create enough vacuum to even move that much water. As for splashing go ahead and take an oiled filter and spray it a few times with a garden hose and tell me how much water gets in it.
    2008 135i - Cobb AP, JB4 G5 w/2Step&FSB, MS DP's, Berk street exhaust, AMS IC, VTT Inlets, UR Intake, ER CP w/Tial BOV, Spec 3+ & Steel FW, CDV delete, Quaife LSD, DSS Axles, M3 control arms, M3 rear SF bushings, M3 Trans bushings, SS brake lines. Pics

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Says the guy running 116mph.... Click here to enlarge

    I've tracked vacuum at the wastegates with both methods and the DCI was actually lower at higher boost levels. Which makes sense as the turbos push air a lot more efficiently than they suck it in. So you must be doign something wrong on the tuning end if its making that much of a dutycycle difference.
    Your findings and the OP findings are opposite polars. Since I have the ability to convert my intake system similar to the DCI would logs be enough proof for this about what affects MAF req ?

    Btw I did say Cobb OTS E30, nothign was touched on it

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    The N54 does not have a MAF sensor. Calculated mass airflow readings are not useful for anything IMHO. And if you are not using an absolute boost targeting system (e.g. a good piggyback) then your going to have a lot of variables running concurrently making it difficult to analyze anything. In a situation like that the best test is just 60-130 testing with no other changes. See what works best for you. Didn't you claim opening your AFE intake up provided the best results? If so then your intake does not flow as well as a Mr5 does...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Carl Morris Click here to enlarge
    I've done a lot of Cobb logging on DCI and the stock intake, with stock IC and Helix. Besides all the stuff everybody already knows, what has surprised me is how much the hardware after the IC heat soaks when there's not much airflow through the engine bay. Once everything in there has gotten really hot, you have to get moving and pull some air through the system for several minutes even with a good IC before you start seeing good temps as reported by Cobb, with the stock intake or DCI.
    I got a 10* temp reduction at max heatsoak by heat tape wrapping cold side FMIC pipe/charge pipe. Normal day to day no big deal but again... hot climates... stop and go traffic... the difference between dci and unwrapped charge pipe is extreme from where I ended up, Mr.5 and heat tape. Like 40* down low.

    This could be completely missed by a 60-130 run.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The N54 does not have a MAF sensor. Calculated mass airflow readings are not useful for anything IMHO. And if you are not using an absolute boost targeting system (e.g. a good piggyback) then your going to have a lot of variables running concurrently making it difficult to analyze anything. In a situation like that the best test is just 60-130 testing with no other changes. See what works best for you. Didn't you claim opening your AFE intake up provided the best results? If so then your intake does not flow as well as a Mr5 does...
    Opened up in negative DA cold weather not the inferno summer of south florida. I had to close it when summer rolled in as the car was not running smooth regardless of tune on it. the minute I closed up the intake cover it never came back off. There is more air pass through on the 335is since it does have more air ducts, so it was ideal for me to open it up during the colder season. Also, what I know now I didnt know back then.

    The OP test was done in hot 85+ extreme humid weather. We will have to revisit this topic when winter rolls in. Both cars rendered the same findings on the same OTS E30 tune.

    The OP is just a neighbor I was helping out in my area as he was having problems with the Cobb OTS maps on his car that I helped resolve for him as I grew more accustom to the DME

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