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    Question Full Suspension for Daily Driver

    My E92 335i is a daily driver and it's FBO with E55. I don't think I'll be tracking it, but who knows. With that said, I love going on spirited drives: back roads, country sides, and mountain sides.

    - Is the suspension below overkill for a daily driver?

    - Should I wait on installing the rear sway bar and rear subframe bushings until I get an LSD?

    - Should I get an LSD instead of these mods, or added on?

    - If I purchase the M3 Suspension Kit from Tischer/GetBMWParts.com, will I need end links? That's the only reason I'm thinking about Hotchkis; it comes with adjustable end links. Tischer's local to me, so I can pick everything up If I can do that instead which is an added benefit.

    - KW Street Comfort Coilovers
    - Vorshlag Camber Plates
    - M3 Front Strut Tower Brace Kit
    - M3 Front Control Arm Kit
    - M3 Rear Control Arm Kit
    - M3 Rear Subframe Bushings
    - Hotchkis Sway Bars

    - StopTech Slotted Rotors
    - StopTech Brake Pads
    - StopTech Brake Lines
    Last edited by RoyalFlush; 10-12-2013 at 08:31 PM.

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    I would skip the camber plates. I have the same ones and they add quite a bit of NVH. You should have enough neg camber after swapping the front m3 control arms, so they really aren't needed. I've heard the ground control street camber plates are less harsh if you have your heart set on getting plates.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    I would skip the camber plates. I have the same ones and they add quite a bit of NVH. You should have enough neg camber after swapping the front m3 control arms, so they really aren't needed. I've heard the ground control street camber plates are less harsh if you have your heart set on getting plates.
    So I should just get a new strut/shock mount kit, like this one from Turner?

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    Why are you gong for Stoptech brakes?
    Maybe look at Racing Brake 2-piece (maybe even oversized) rotors, and Hawk HPS pads.
    Also, there are 6 brake lines that need to be replaced and I thought the Stoptech is a 4-piece set. Not sure though.
    Goodridge has a 6-piece set, I'm sure about that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    Why are you gong for Stoptech brakes?
    Maybe look at Racing Brake 2-piece (maybe even oversized) rotors, and Hawk HPS pads.
    Also, there are 6 brake lines that need to be replaced and I thought the Stoptech is a 4-piece set. Not sure though.
    Goodridge has a 6-piece set, I'm sure about that.
    I just want to upgrade the brakes for daily driving. I saw this StopTech Brake Upgrade Kit from ModBargains and thought it had everything that I'll need. I'll double check with ModBargains if the brake lines that come with the kit are a 4-piece set or 6-piece set. Is it a huge difference between the two?

    I saw the Racing Brake 2-piece rotor upgrade, but it's around $1K and I'm not sure I need that for daily driving. (The entire StopTech kit with brake pads, rotors, and brake lines from ModBargains is around $700.)

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    Hey man I'm on the same boat with you. Just got the front done. Fixing to have the M3 rear suspension bits done as well (subframe bushings, guide rods). Depends on how much power you put down, you would need both M3 rear bits and LSD. I'm running Cobb e30 so I will need both :-) When I was stage1+Agg I was able to launch 2nd gear (street tires). Not the case anymore LoL
    Last edited by quattr0; 10-13-2013 at 10:18 AM.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by quattr0 Click here to enlarge
    Hey man I'm on the same boat with you. Just got the front done. Fixing to have the M3 rear suspension bits done as well (subframe bushings, guide rods & wishbones). Depends on how much power you put down, you would need both M3 rear bits and LSD. I'm running Cobb e30 so I will need both :-) When I was stage1+Agg I was able to launch 2nd gear (street tires). Not the case anymore LoL
    I was thinking of going with the full M3 suspension from Tischer/GetBMWParts. The only real difference between the Hotchkis sway bars and M3 sway bars is that the Hotchkis kit comes with new end links. Do you think it'd be better to go with the full M3 suspension and just purchase after-market end links?

    I put down 425WHP/462WTQ recently with a PTF E55 proTUNE, and that's with failing turbos and without meth. I'll have new turbos installed and the Aquamist HFS-4 kit soon, so I'll be pushing more than those initial numbers. (I still don't know/think that I'll need an LSD for daily driving?)

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    i guess if you putting down that much power and don't need traction then no you won't need LSD. It's always a nice thing to have; it's not a must have. But then what's the point if you can't get traction? Haven't even considered wet/snow condition....

    Don't know about M3 vs. Hotchkis

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    A) depends on how you like your ride. MOST coilover systems will make the ride harsher (obviously) from spring rate and shock valving settings.
    B) MOST BMW's do not benefit from a rear swaybar. Hell, some of our race cars dont even run a rear swaybar.... it makes the car sit better coming out of a corner. If you want to put one on, put a front bar on it to keep it from inducing MORE oversteer. Plus a rear swaybar is a pain in the ass to install Click here to enlarge
    C) want big brakes for the street? enjoy the sounds of their people- brake squeal. Welcome to brake squealy land.
    D) rear lockdown kit and M3 subframe bushings would probably do more than just a limited slip in the overal scheme of things. If you get a limited slip, your still going to get wheel hop and whatnot- might as well kill that first.
    E) If you get a full suspension kit, it more than likely wont have adjustable swaybar links. Honeslty, if you arent lowering the crap out of it, you only need ONE adjustable link per swaybar. If you are lowering the hell out of it ( @nafoo ) you need two, since the bar needs to be adjusted up for clearance
    F) vorshlag camber plates are AWESOME compared to ground control. I charge 75 dollars extra to align a car with ground control plates. I. HATE. THEM.
    G) If you plan on getting coil overs and full suspension, get it corner balanced and aligned by a competent person. Its a waste of money if you dont, IMO. It all depends on how well you know suspension settings, and how "in tune" you are to your car.
    Last edited by alex@ABRhouston; 10-13-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RoyalFlush Click here to enlarge
    I just want to upgrade the brakes for daily driving. I saw this StopTech Brake Upgrade Kit from ModBargains and thought it had everything that I'll need. I'll double check with ModBargains if the brake lines that come with the kit are a 4-piece set or 6-piece set. Is it a huge difference between the two?
    If you're not doing all the brake lines you're still having flex in both rear brake lines.
    Then you might as well not do the lines at all.

    I saw the Racing Brake 2-piece rotor upgrade, but it's around $1K and I'm not sure I need that for daily driving. (The entire StopTech kit with brake pads, rotors, and brake lines from ModBargains is around $700.)
    If you're not going with the oversized disks but with the standard size, which is sufficient if you do not track the car, you save 4 pounds of unsprung weight PER ROTOR!
    That alone is worth the extra costs in road handling.
    Also, the Racing Brake rotors are slotted with internal cooling which is way better than slotted alone.
    If you're serious about the brake upgrade and it's not just for looks, I would seriously consider it over a very cheap solution.
    RB's are not that expensive.
    It is not like you're buying an entire BBK.

    For daily driving with stock power the OEM brakes suffice.
    If you go 25% above that powerband you will need better brakes eventually.
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  11. #11
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    You could always go with bronze bushings in the calipers, some Pagid Blue sports, cryo slotted rotors from power slot, braided steel brake lines and some ATE typ200 fluid.

    IMO, thats as the most you can go with stock brakes before having to step up to BBK's..... and most people will never run out of brakes on that set up (street and mild track use)
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    want big brakes for the street? enjoy the sounds of their people- brake squeal. Welcome to brake squealy land.
    True if you drive track pads. Even mild track ready pads squeal.
    Streetpads mostly do not sqeal, but the difference in stopping power compared to OEM is not that big at all.
    More controllable most of the time, and do not generate the amount of dust the OEM pads generate, which BTW is ridiculous.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    IMO, thats as the most you can go with stock brakes before having to step up to BBK's..... and most people will never run out of brakes on that set up (street and mild track use)
    Push for 3 laps on any 3 mile circuit and you will reach the end of the OEM brakes.
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    Akebono's would be a good compromise between a ceramic pad and dust, but its certainly not a track pad.


    I was just at TWS that is about 2.9 miles this weekend. Most budget racers and general track cars run stock style brakes and dont have much issue with fade.... you run into tire fade first.....
    and those are 30 minute sessions.

    track car on slicks and a lot of power? yea, those could use BBK's.
    Heavily modded and dedicated track car with a lot of power? BBK's all the way.


    Now COTA is BRUTAL on brakes, and I can see OEM brakes melting quickly there lol



    But we are getting off track (excuse the pun), cause he said this was his DD and he hasnt tracked it
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    A) depends on how you like your ride. MOST coilover systems will make the ride harsher (obviously) from spring rate and shock valving settings. .

    Since itís a DD, Iíd like it to be somewhat comfortable. I donít mind a semi-stiff(harsh?) ride though.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    B) MOST BMW's do not benefit from a rear swaybar. Hell, some of our race cars dont even run a rear swaybar.... it makes the car sit better coming out of a corner. If you want to put one on, put a front bar on it to keep it from inducing MORE oversteer. Plus a rear swaybar is a pain in the ass to install .

    I was initially thinking of doing this since I heard the rear sway bar and rear subframe bushings are a PITA.


    I heard the front control arms and rear subframe bushings are the most beneficial though to start with?


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    C) want big brakes for the street? enjoy the sounds of their people- brake squeal. Welcome to brake squealy land. .

    I want absolutely zero squealing. Thatís the reason Iím upgrading because I sometimes hear a faint squealing when coming to a stop. (I think this happens after driving the car fairly hard, but Iím not 100% sure.)




    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    D) rear lockdown kit and M3 subframe bushings would probably do more than just a limited slip in the overal scheme of things. If you get a limited slip, your still going to get wheel hop and whatnot- might as well kill that first. .



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    E) If you get a full suspension kit, it more than likely wont have adjustable swaybar links. Honeslty, if you arent lowering the crap out of it, you only need ONE adjustable link per swaybar. If you are lowering the hell out of it ( @nafoo ) you need two, since the bar needs to be adjusted up for clearance.

    I wonít be lowering it too much; I just want a nice stance. (Iíll be putting on 19Ē wheels. I can order a custom offset, but Iím not too sure the tire size or offets I'm ordering. I want to run the widest tires possible with fenders rolled, so I was thinking 245/275?)


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    F) vorshlag camber plates are AWESOME compared to ground control. I charge 75 dollars extra to align a car with ground control plates. I. HATE. THEM. .

    Someone told me that for a DD, Vorshlag camber plates would be incredibly harsh. Is this true, or is could it be an install related issue?


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    G) If you plan on getting coil overs and full suspension, get it corner balanced and aligned by a competent person. Its a waste of money if you dont, IMO. It all depends on how well you know suspension settings, and how "in tune" you are to your car.

    I plan on having arguably the best BMW shop/mechanic in Northern Virginia to corner balance and align it.


    This obviously varies from location to location and shop to shop, but what do you think is a fair price for balancing and alignment? What do you think is a fair price for install with the setup I mentioned, excluding the rear sway bar and rear subframe bushings, with balancing and alignment?


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    If you're not doing all the brake lines you're still having flex in both rear brake lines.
    Then you might as well not do the lines at all.

    Good to know; Iíll verify if the StopTech comes with a 6-piece kit. If not, Iíll purchase Goodridge. (Or just purchase Goodridge anyways?)


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DavidV Click here to enlarge
    If you're not going with the oversized disks but with the standard size, which is sufficient if you do not track the car, you save 4 pounds of unsprung weight PER ROTOR!
    That alone is worth the extra costs in road handling.
    Also, the Racing Brake rotors are slotted with internal cooling which is way better than slotted alone.
    If you're serious about the brake upgrade and it's not just for looks, I would seriously consider it over a very cheap solution.
    RB's are not that expensive.
    It is not like you're buying an entire BBK.


    For daily driving with stock power the OEM brakes suffice.
    If you go 25% above that powerband you will need better brakes eventually.

    I wasnít doing it for looks, I just wanted an upgrade for DD. I donít mind paying for a BBK. With that said, based on your last two sentences, should I go ahead and upgrade to a BBK for DD? Iím FBO, proTUNED on E55.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    But we are getting off track (excuse the pun), cause he said this was his DD and he hasnt tracked it

    This; Itís my DD. I donít think Iíll ever take it to the track.


    I just want the best brake upgrade for a DD without going to a BBK, if thatís possible. If a BBK is needed for the amount of power I have, even for a DD, Iíll go with a BBK.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RoyalFlush Click here to enlarge
    Since it’s a DD, I’d like it to be somewhat comfortable. I don’t mind a semi-stiff(harsh?) ride though.
    So we are on the same page then
    I was initially thinking of doing this since I heard the rear sway bar and rear subframe bushings are a PITA.
    rear subframe needs to be dropped to do both, i guess it would be a pain for a DIY'er, but we do them pretty often

    I heard the front control arms and rear subframe bushings are the most beneficial though to start with?
    front control arms, totally. Rear bushings, depending on how "in tune" you are with a car. IMO tires make more of a difference than rear bushings.

    I want absolutely zero squealing. That’s the reason I’m upgrading because I sometimes hear a faint squealing when coming to a stop. (I think this happens after driving the car fairly hard, but I’m not 100% sure.)

    Good luck. Akebono ceramics IMO are the best non-squealing "performance" pad you'll find. I have pagid blue comps on my M3, they are noted for heavy dust and squealing, so far- no noise.... That doesn't mean they wont down the road..... Most of the time, I find aftermarket brake pads and BBK's- the pads aren't bedded in well, and will cause lots of squeals. you can re-bed the pads and normally it will go away (for a while)



    I won’t be lowering it too much; I just want a nice stance. (I’ll be putting on 19” wheels. I can order a custom offset, but I’m not too sure the tire size or offets I'm ordering. I want to run the widest tires possible with fenders rolled, so I was thinking 245/275?)
    Bilstein PSS9 is a nice kit, or if you want to have both worlds, a Bilstein B16 ride control system. very cool.

    Someone told me that for a DD, Vorshlag camber plates would be incredibly harsh. Is this true, or is could it be an install related issue?'

    I don't know about "harsh", but remember your putting track parts on a street car. you have to compromise performance for handling. That being said, I love them because of their ease of adjustment. Remember I hate ground control camber plates? I don't see how they could be any "nicer" ride, since they are a ball bearing just like the Vorshlag's.



    I plan on having arguably the best BMW shop/mechanic in Northern Virginia to corner balance and align it.


    This obviously varies from location to location and shop to shop, but what do you think is a fair price for balancing and alignment? What do you think is a fair price for install with the setup I mentioned, excluding the rear sway bar and rear subframe bushings, with balancing and alignment?

    I charge 350 for corner balance and alignment on a coil over car.


    Good to know; I’ll verify if the StopTech comes with a 6-piece kit. If not, I’ll purchase Goodridge. (Or just purchase Goodridge anyways?)



    I wasn’t doing it for looks, I just wanted an upgrade for DD. I don’t mind paying for a BBK. With that said, based on your last two sentences, should I go ahead and upgrade to a BBK for DD? I’m FBO, proTUNED on E55.

    YMMV. I have a street E36 that makes 640/720 to the ground with the above mentioned brake components, and I have a great pedal feel, initial bite and braking power. I also didnt want to upgrade rims, and change the outside look of the car. I would always love the added benefit of a BBK, but don't want them on this car. I can roll from 160+ down to sane speeds pretty damn quick with no brake fade or warpage.


    This; It’s my DD. I don’t think I’ll ever take it to the track.


    I just want the best brake upgrade for a DD without going to a BBK, if that’s possible. If a BBK is needed for the amount of power I have, even for a DD, I’ll go with a BBK.

    If thats the case, I would just upgrade your stock stuff. if you are warping rotors, melting pads and/or getting brake fade- I would say a BBK is your next alternative.
    are you doing that with your factory rotors and pads already?
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    Another option is the Dinan Camber plates. They are a simple non adjustable design so no chance to introduce any harshness or noises.
    If you combine those with M3 front control arms you can still get over 2 degrees of camber in the front.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RoyalFlush Click here to enlarge
    I wasn’t doing it for looks, I just wanted an upgrade for DD. I don’t mind paying for a BBK. With that said, based on your last two sentences, should I go ahead and upgrade to a BBK for DD? I’m FBO, proTUNED on E55.
    For DD you definitely do not need a BBK.
    Only if you track the car hard will they come to be a nessecity.
    Replace the brake lines for a firmer pedal feel, maybe replace the brake pads to get rid of the brake dust and a more linear pedal control, and you will be good for DD.
    Just don't go 0-155-0-155-0-155-0 as fast as you can or something will surely overheat.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RoyalFlush Click here to enlarge
    I just want to upgrade the brakes for daily driving. I saw this StopTech Brake Upgrade Kit from ModBargains and thought it had everything that I'll need. I'll double check with ModBargains if the brake lines that come with the kit are a 4-piece set or 6-piece set. Is it a huge difference between the two?

    I saw the Racing Brake 2-piece rotor upgrade, but it's around $1K and I'm not sure I need that for daily driving. (The entire StopTech kit with brake pads, rotors, and brake lines from ModBargains is around $700.)
    Did you talk to @ModBargains?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Did you talk to @ModBargains?
    I did. I verified that the brake lines come (or is available) in a 6-piece kit. I might go with the kit since it includes StopTech Sport Slotted Rotors, StopTech Street Performance Brake Pads, and StopTech Stainless Steel Brake Lines. With that said, I'm still looking into the options and substitutions below.

    Abekono Euro Ceramic Brake Pads
    Goodridge G-Spot Stainless Steel Brake Lines

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    Look at the stock z4 35i brake rotors. They are two piece, so they are lighter, but really for a DD street only car, that might even be overkill. I would go with upgraded lines, quality fluid and some good pads (I like Hawk HPS). I have no problem with the Hawk HPS pads making noise. The main advantage a BBK would give you is the ability to take the car fro 150-0 all day long. Unless you plan to dirve like that on the street (not advisable) I would skipp the BBK and put the money towards an LSD.

    For the suspension I would stay away from camber plates which use a spherical bearing to support the weight of the car axially like the Vorshlag plates. The bearings might be tight when they are new, but they will open up slightly over time, then the front will clunk when going over bumps. I would buy coil overs, however - especially if you like to drive. Don't get too caught up in lowering the car, BMW designed the suspension geometry around the stop ride height. If you start lowing it too much, it will negatively affect handling.

    @alex@ABRhouston what makes the Ground Control plates hard to adjust. Are you referring to camber or caster adjustment? I was thinking about buying the street plates next year when I do my suspension and would like to know what you think of them. The street plates have only camber adjustment, and the weight of the car rides on a poly bushing to prevent the aforementioned problem with spherical bearings. they don't give as much as the stock mounts, and have camber adjustability. I tend to wear out the outside edges of my front tires. I had spherical bearing plates on my last street car and I would not choose to have them again for a DD.

    @RoyalFlush I would skip the plates for now unless you find you need more camber than you get with the front M3 arms. Also I would use a poly bushing in the tension strut instead of the M3 rubber one.

    Personally I have an LSD and I love it. I would definitely do it with the ungraded M3 or Poly subframe bushings, and upgraded diff bushings as well. Instead of upgrading the diff bushings to poly ones, you could get the Defiv lock down kit but that might be overkill if you don't plan to launch the car.
    Eppur si muove.

  22. #22
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    The GC plates are STOOOOPID in comparison to vorshlag. GC has a few allens that hold camber and caster angle to the actual strut mount. you loosen the strut mount, pick up the car, move the strut to access the allen bolts, loosen them up, adjust to what you think it should be, set it down, do a caster sweep, check caster and camber, figure out where it goes, REPEAT ENTIRE PROCESS.

    edit: I am referring to GC plates on a E46, and race plates for E90. I just looked at the E90 street plates and they are like vorshlags system- so i retract my statement on painting with a broad brush.


    do that 2-3 times on the alignment rack.

    final time you pray to baby jesus that it doesn't move, because you then have to do the process to tighten the allens for the final time, and put it back- hoping it doesn't move.


    vorshlag? loosen the three top nuts, adjust the camber to what you want, snug, run a caster sweep, verify, torque- done.


    I have a customer on stock suspension with vorshlag plates. he DD's it, then puts R comps on it, sets the camber and adjusts the toe at the track.... has fun, puts it back to "street" mode and goes about DD'ing it again.

    Ive marked the plates and showed him how much to adjust the toe by turns to get within ballpark of each one. so far so good- and he damn near tracks weekly.
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    I'm leaning towards KW Street Comfort coilovers. What camber kit or strut/shock mount kit should I use with them?

    I plan on doing a full suspension upgrade excluding the rear sway bar. When purchasing the M3 suspension kit from Tischer, would I still need these tension arm bushings from HPA, or are the "tension struts w/bushings" included in the kit the same thing? (What other components do I need when purchasing the M3 suspension kit, or does it come with all the necessities?)

    Since the StopTech upgrade kit from ModBargains includes a 6-piece brake line kit instead of only 4-piece, I'll probably go that route for the brake related upgrades?

    FWIW I plan to (try to) fit 19x19.5 (245)/19.10 (275) wheels and tires. I know wheels can influence the suspension components that are upgraded. The wheels I plan to get are custom made (size, offset, etc).

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    I would hold off on getting adjustable strut mounts if you are going to get the M3 arms. You might find the arms themselves give you enough camber.

    Also I really do like the HPA tension arm bushings for a track car, but I think they might be overkill on the street. Both Powerflex and Whiteline make press in poly bushings for the tension strut which will remove the majority of the slop present with the rubber bushings.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by RoyalFlush Click here to enlarge
    I'm leaning towards KW Street Comfort coilovers. What camber kit or strut/shock mount kit should I use with them?

    I plan on doing a full suspension upgrade excluding the rear sway bar. When purchasing the M3 suspension kit from Tischer, would I still need these tension arm bushings from HPA, or are the "tension struts w/bushings" included in the kit the same thing? (What other components do I need when purchasing the M3 suspension kit, or does it come with all the necessities?)

    Since the StopTech upgrade kit from ModBargains includes a 6-piece brake line kit instead of only 4-piece, I'll probably go that route for the brake related upgrades?

    FWIW I plan to (try to) fit 19x19.5 (245)/19.10 (275) wheels and tires. I know wheels can influence the suspension components that are upgraded. The wheels I plan to get are custom made (size, offset, etc).
    I strongly recommend talking to @ModBargains

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