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Thread: Batch2 progress

  1. #151
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    I like boats and hoes
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    no one had a gun held to their head when giving him a deposit. If any cry babies don't want to wait they can easily get their money back without any hassle at all. it's mind blowing that people are making such a big deal about this. no one was forced to put a deposit down, tony is being completely transparent about what they're doing over there.

    that at being said, there are always some people who like to make a massive stink over nothing. so I guess this isn't really surprising
    Your right but Tony stated these are not beta, production units will be ready in 60-90 days.
    three months ago. Simple. I do not have the time to wait for R & D again.
    what this is now like stage two batch five lol.
    keep it simple. This means stage two production the official batch six will be out in spring. Come on.

    it reminds me of a lame contractor saying I'll be there tomorrow, and really it's a month later.
    meanwhile you can't take a $#@! cause there is no toilet, lol
    i asked numerous times how's testing going, and it been, great, super, excellent, coming soon to a theatre near you.
    This is still beta folks.
    i am not a beta tester, nor did I receive a discount.
    Last edited by marcvtec; 10-19-2013 at 08:40 PM.
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  3. #153
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    Say it aint so Click here to enlarge... well that seems to be the case since the 11 wheel design failed, now it's back to square one. If that's the case then yea... I may be jumping ship at least I know what I'm getting into. Being stationed in Germany, winter comes quick and I would at least be able to push my car to it's limits before the snow hits.
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  4. #154
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    What's interesting is apparently tony has ordered 100 gtx turbines as per.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...Batch-2-update
    And
    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...and-pre-orders

    so were they truly ordered, since now they do not work?
    Cobb tuned, spec2+, wavetrac, DCI, ARdp's, AA fmic, forge DV's, M3 links & Sways, bbs lm's, bunch of exterior mods, and one happy BMW driver

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    My old boss once said, "you don't know what you don't know -if you knew what you didn't know, you'd know it". In my industry, there is a lot of "bottom drawer" info that escapes the normal review. For example we were trying to figure out why the drawing called out 3300 psi line in a 100 psi application. No one knew why, they just knew it was what the drawing called for written back in the late 70's. People guessed it was for explosion proof testing, maybe for material availability, a drawing error... guesses. Once we found the right guy to ask, he scratched his bald head and remembered they changed things to a thicker pipe wall because sailors use that particular pipe as a step and they ruptured lots of the 100 psi line.

    Designing an producing a turbo is like that in that despite you guys mostly being technically proficient, the way things really work is not as it would seem. The path is not what you would imagine and there are all sorts of things that creep up and get in the way. There are also shortcuts you guys don't know about, such as looking at surge lines in one housing, comparing that to what happened in the tiny N54 housings, and taking that delta and applying it to a different wheel. Might work might not, just an example. If it is "easy" to design and produce that turbo... then you're just putting one together. I hope you see the difference.

    I've been part of this design and iteration process many times, always successfully. The only crime Tony has committed here is that he's been much more transparent with what's going on than some of you guys are comfortable with. Don't tell me that you guys can't handle the truth, haha. Turbo design is an iterative process. Hell, we just tried optimizing an engine by closing tolerances and the structure guys took a bigger bite off than they should have and we spent the last 3 months in root cause corrective action meetings explaining why we're all a bunch of tards and should have been more conservative after something rubbed at high altitude testing. *shrug* it happens.

    I guess what I'm saying is that this isn't the movies guys. This is how stuff really gets done. Like it or not it happens every where and if you think you can go somewhere else and do better -you cannot. It's either the same every where else, it's an existing design so you aren't part of the growing pains process, or you're being lied to simply put. I wish there were a better truth, but thems' the way things are, period. Don't fall for the better showmanship, learn about the process and let the evolution happen. I bet you a ham sandwhich he could ship as many turbos as you'd like as soon as you'd like, provided they don't have to meet his standards. He hasn't, and that's called integrity. Rare in this industry.

    Not saying Tony is perfect, but he's pushing through his own way and if he worked for me/my team I'd tell him "good job, keep pushing, ignore everyone else" because quite simply he's on the right track, making good progress, eliminating bad design/unforseen issues, and he's getting real data that I do whole heartedly expect any of you guys looking at a turbo upgrade to embrace and value. As sticky said, these aren't remote control cars.

    I'm sure I'll get neg repped from someone who either can't wait to get their turbo or think I'm hanging off Vargas's ballsack, or some other stupid reason. I wrote this because I'm experienced here and hoped maybe someone would consider "hey, I guess i didn't understand all that's involved... lets start over here and go back to talking about and working on our cars", since that's what we're all here for.

  6. #156
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    My old boss once said, "you don't know what you don't know -if you knew what you didn't know, you'd know it". In my industry, there is a lot of "bottom drawer" info that escapes the normal review. For example we were trying to figure out why the drawing called out 3300 psi line in a 100 psi application. No one knew why, they just knew it was what the drawing called for written back in the late 70's. People guessed it was for explosion proof testing, maybe for material availability, a drawing error... guesses. Once we found the right guy to ask, he scratched his bald head and remembered they changed things to a thicker pipe wall because sailors use that particular pipe as a step and they ruptured lots of the 100 psi line.

    Designing an producing a turbo is like that in that despite you guys mostly being technically proficient, the way things really work is not as it would seem. The path is not what you would imagine and there are all sorts of things that creep up and get in the way. There are also shortcuts you guys don't know about, such as looking at surge lines in one housing, comparing that to what happened in the tiny N54 housings, and taking that delta and applying it to a different wheel. Might work might not, just an example. If it is "easy" to design and produce that turbo... then you're just putting one together. I hope you see the difference.

    I've been part of this design and iteration process many times, always successfully. The only crime Tony has committed here is that he's been much more transparent with what's going on than some of you guys are comfortable with. Don't tell me that you guys can't handle the truth, haha. Turbo design is an iterative process. Hell, we just tried optimizing an engine by closing tolerances and the structure guys took a bigger bite off than they should have and we spent the last 3 months in root cause corrective action meetings explaining why we're all a bunch of tards and should have been more conservative after something rubbed at high altitude testing. *shrug* it happens.

    I guess what I'm saying is that this isn't the movies guys. This is how stuff really gets done. Like it or not it happens every where and if you think you can go somewhere else and do better -you cannot. It's either the same every where else, it's an existing design so you aren't part of the growing pains process, or you're being lied to simply put. I wish there were a better truth, but thems' the way things are, period. Don't fall for the better showmanship, learn about the process and let the evolution happen. I bet you a ham sandwhich he could ship as many turbos as you'd like as soon as you'd like, provided they don't have to meet his standards. He hasn't, and that's called integrity. Rare in this industry.

    Not saying Tony is perfect, but he's pushing through his own way and if he worked for me/my team I'd tell him "good job, keep pushing, ignore everyone else" because quite simply he's on the right track, making good progress, eliminating bad design/unforseen issues, and he's getting real data that I do whole heartedly expect any of you guys looking at a turbo upgrade to embrace and value. As sticky said, these aren't remote control cars.

    I'm sure I'll get neg repped from someone who either can't wait to get their turbo or think I'm hanging off Vargas's ballsack, or some other stupid reason. I wrote this because I'm experienced here and hoped maybe someone would consider "hey, I guess i didn't understand all that's involved... lets start over here and go back to talking about and working on our cars", since that's what we're all here for.
    well said

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    What I find frustrating is I feel Tony has used customers as guinea pigs and took their money. Are those people idiots for doing so? I think yes, no offense guys. Anyone who buys an unproven product based on forum promises gets what they deserve. I have been burned before so I am MUCH more skeptical. Look at the grief you gave the HPFP upgrade guy. No results so why invest in an unproven product?

    Why he couldn't buy the parts and test them himself and show results is beyond me. Why it took a year I do not understand but I also do not understand the custom wheel turbo industry. Buy 10 different types of wheels, run them, look at the results, and then offer a product with proven results. Do I think Tony will make a superior product eventually? Yes. The way he is doing it is appalling. If my company tried to use customers as test subjects we would be out of business.

    You don't publicize your R&D failures.

    You don't take money from customers unless you have a product that performs.

    You don't make delivery promises on a product that doesn't exist.

    I assume Tony will rip this apart and tell me he will not sell me his turbos in the future and that i don't know about business.

    I've been working for manufacturing companies for 10+ years and what you are doing it just backasswards.

    We are happy to announce a new product 6 months before it is available but we will NEVER use customers as our test bed or take a penny before we have proven results. Why the $#@! would we?

    Your transparency or lack of business experience is your downfall.
    Last edited by Torgus; 10-20-2013 at 12:18 AM.
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    As was stated above why a healthy company has to take deposits to fund R&D is beyond me. Tony are you really in charge or did you have to get customers cash to fund this side venture? Is your company really that cash poor you can't pay for some custom wheels and R&D?

    Same with the stage 3, are you just using their deposits to fund the fab costs? Why even take deposits on an unproven product? WHY?

    I am not aware of a legit company requiring cash up front for an unreleased & unproven product, but I could be wrong. Examples are encouraged.

    If this was Shiv the flames would be unrelenting. I never saw him do this for his ST upgrade. Your company should be much larger than Shivs' from what you say, whats up with needing customer money for R&D?
    Last edited by Torgus; 10-20-2013 at 12:48 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    What I find frustrating is I feel Tony has used customers as guinea pigs and took their money. Are those people idiots for doing so? I think yes, no offense guys. Anyone who buys an unproven product based on forum promises gets what they deserve. I have been burned before so I am MUCH more skeptical.
    whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone pal. When you say "guinea pigs" I assume you mean the people running the batch 1 turbos - of which I am still using 13k miles later without issue.

    Just because you don't want to test out a product for $#@!s and giggles doesn't mean someone else is an idiot for wanting to. Not only were my previous turbos (before the Vargas) on their way out, I was getting a little bored with the car. These Vargas beta turbos came to light and I wanted to try something new to keep me interested in the car. I like tinkering, I like trying the very latest things.

    I knew exactly what I was getting myself in to, and the product delivered to my expectations. How exactly does that make me an idiot?

    No one is being forced to buy in to these turbos. The only idiot is the person who buys in then gets angry... but then of course you can simply get a refund and take your money elsewhere. So really, who cares and why is everyone making such a massive deal about this? It's a pair of $#@!ing metal snails that gets put in to a stupid car to make more horse powers... everyone needs to just simmer down, these little delays and such are not the end of the world.
    Last edited by jpsimon; 10-20-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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    There are a couple types of people:

    A) People who want to try out the latest and greatest, even if they're beta: because racecar
    B) People who want completely proven products before they pay for them

    It's simple. If you are a B person don't put a deposit down on turbos that are in the process of being developed and then get angry. Buy something else or just wait before putting any money down.
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    Well out of all of this, I'm surprised Rob hasn't chimed in on any of this. Btw where is he? I haven't been able to find any post regarding the RBs at all. Unlike e90 post and N54 tech there's a larger database of information. As of now, I'm going through a pros and cons phase regarding which route I want to take now. I couldn't agree more with what jpsimon said, at first, I did want to try out the latest and greatest but now I'm moving towards what has already been out there and has data to prove its worth.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone pal. When you say "guinea pigs" I assume you mean the people running the batch 1 turbos
    I am talking about business practices in my posts.

    I am sorry if I have offended you or any other stage stage 1 test beds. I am glad you are happy with your purchase. I am also happy you acknowledge you were a guinea pig and a test case for a product that had to be immediately redesigned because of underperformance.
    Last edited by Torgus; 10-20-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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    I don't think the batch 1 underperform. My car is a beast. Batch 2 is just improving on a great product. If batch 2's make 30 more hp I won't feel cheated or disappointed as I knew what I was getting because people like jp did the beta testing. I think the statement about vargas needing deposits to cover R&D is just rediculous. Obviously you need to research Vargas' s history and what all they do which is part of the reason I went with them. The other thing is if there ever was a problem I could make one phone call and it would be taken care of. Thats peace of mind I enjoy as a vargas customer. Just my .02.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Shadow007 Click here to enlarge
    Well out of all of this, I'm surprised Rob hasn't chimed in on any of this. Btw where is he? I haven't been able to find any post regarding the RBs at all. Unlike e90 post and N54 tech there's a larger database of information. As of now, I'm going through a pros and cons phase regarding which route I want to take now. I couldn't agree more with what jpsimon said, at first, I did want to try out the latest and greatest but now I'm moving towards what has already been out there and has data to prove its worth.
    pick up the phone and Call Tony and Rob. They are both very helpful and informative. I have personally spoken to both. I wouldnt get wrapped up in forum bs too much.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jzeee037 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think the batch 1 underperform.
    How so? They do under perform compared to what was advertised:

    9/4/2012 "Stage 2:These should max out around 550-575 BHP...might be able to push these to 600"

    9/3/2012 "The direct replacement hybrids are already testing, should be ready to ship in 2 weeks"

    If they don't under perform why were they redesigned immediately after the release and independent dyno results?

    I'm not saying you and the other stage 1 guys are not happy, never have. I am sure the turbos will hold up and last a decent amount of time, Tony obviously knows what he is doing. I am just stating the facts, you guys were the test mules...again I think Tony will come out on top with the best stock frame turbo upgrade on the market, it's just a matter of time(over a year now).
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    Bored stuck at work on a Sunday so i'll actually post. I usually just read these threads and stay out of them, as my 335i is my daily driver and my IS300 is my real toy. The only people that have a standing here are the ones who ordered the turbos. Most of them seem more than happy waiting for their product and if you're not satisfied ask for your money back like marcvtec has. He's really the only one that can be upset with the situation. As for everybody else, you really need to take a step back. No one has a right how to tell Vargas how to run his company, especially comparing it to other manufacturing companies. The car tuning world is completely different, there won't be thousands of this kits in production. You will always have beta testers and first adopters. Its been like this across all platforms hondas, evo's, lexus...etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    How so? They do under perform compared to what was advertised:

    9/4/2012 "Stage 2:These should max out around 550-575 BHP...might be able to push these to 600"

    9/3/2012 "The direct replacement hybrids are already testing, should be ready to ship in 2 weeks"

    If they don't under perform why were they redesigned immediately after the release and independent dyno results?

    I'm not saying you and the other stage 1 guys are not happy, never have. I am sure the turbos will hold up and last a decent amount of time, Tony obviously knows what he is doing. I am just stating the facts, you guys were the test mules...again I think Tony will come out on top with the best stock frame turbo upgrade on the market, it's just a matter of time(over a year now).
    Think he is just improving his product. I had to wait on mine and car was parked because my stockers were smoking. Just saying if this is your daily driver I understand why your upset. I knew these were a work in progress when he said he will be doing batch 2. $#@! happens and things don't work out as planned. Happens everyday in my trade. I have parts ordered 6months ago that we were promised to have in 2-4 weeks.Could I go with a cheaper product and get them out? Sure, but I know what my customers want and the product I want to put out so I'm waiting. One customer has called me daily on a backordered part from the manufacturer and I hate getting that call but I tell him the truth and he continues to give me tons of work.

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    My goal was 500hp and I'm sure they are close.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jzeee037 Click here to enlarge
    My goal was 500hp and I'm sure they are close.
    WHP right? Tony had stated before I thought 575-600 BHP for batch 1. Which seems about right, rader1 has seen over 480whp, and I think that was on like 19psi pump+meth, so there was enough left, but seems like everyone with batch 1 or beta's never posted dynos or as far as I know ever worked out all kinks to run full PSI and race gas or strong e85.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    There are a couple types of people:

    A) People who want to try out the latest and greatest, even if they're beta: because racecar
    B) People who want completely proven products before they pay for them

    It's simple. If you are a B person don't put a deposit down on turbos that are in the process of being developed and then get angry. Buy something else or just wait before putting any money down.
    Exactly. Group A gets a little discount and the first products, but has to pay up front and wait. Maybe he's just trying to justify to his accountant or his wife where he's spending his time lately, he's a small business not a large corporation and as such he gets a pass on the typical big business code of conduct. It seems the vast majority of his customers and prospective customers appreciate this approach, but haters are always gonna hate.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    WHP right? Tony had stated before I thought 575-600 BHP for batch 1. Which seems about right, rader1 has seen over 480whp, and I think that was on like 19psi pump+meth, so there was enough left, but seems like everyone with batch 1 or beta's never posted dynos or as far as I know ever worked out all kinks to run full PSI and race gas or strong e85.
    The highest I saw was 480 but then the guy trapped like 118.
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    I think that was the only dyno I ever saw or drag slip.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    no one had a gun held to their head when giving him a deposit. If any cry babies don't want to wait they can easily get their money back without any hassle at all.
    Then why are people selling their deposits on stage 2 and stage 3 at a LOSS online? All they would have to do is call and get a full refund like you explained? Any ideas?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    Then why are people selling their deposits on stage 2 and stage 3 at a LOSS online? All they would have to do is call and get a full refund like you explained? Any ideas?

    Click here to enlarge
    So far there's been I think 4 spots total go for sale between here and e90 and they all bought M3's.
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    1 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    So far there's been I think 4 spots total go for sale between here and e90 and they all bought M3's.
    Why wouldn't they just call and get a full refund instead of taking a loss. If anything it would be FASTER. I don't see their threads saying I am selling this at a loss because I am a good person. Seriously think about it man.

    Go back a page and read about how the stage 2 design would NEVER change from an 11 blade and the massive amount of data he 'had'.

    This is kind of funny when you look at it all. Tony hates shiv and publicly threaten his personal safety online. Tony is kinda of getting shiv like imo.
    E92 Bren Tune / E90 PTF Tune / E70 Twin Turbo Diesel JBD

    Got Boost?

    Click here to enlarge

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