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Thread: Batch2 progress

  1. #101
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    Whoops. On my phone, quoted wrong guy..Click here to enlarge

  2. #102
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    No problem. Phones are great but big screens are better.

    Let me see if I have my head around this. The surge line on a compressor map always has a positive slope, that is it slopes up and to the right. If you are at a low RPM and your air requirements are low, and you are trying to target too high of a pressure ratio, you will end up over the surge line in the no-mans-land area of the map. This causes the surging you are talking about, right, Tony?
    Last edited by ajm8127; 10-17-2013 at 08:00 PM.
    Eppur si muove.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    You can't see it and you can only hear it on rare occasions but you could slight hear it when lifting a flutter before the bov cleared the charge pipe, a well set up bov system is very important for updated turbos as well. I'll be posting about that soon too. You know it's there when both thrusts are worn after 500 miles. Exactly what we have seen in other platforms with the issue. We actually solved ghis issue for a shop that was selling SRT upgrades blowing through thrusts in 500 miles. Wheel swap to 6x6 cured problem.
    Thanks for the update! Please do explain what you mean by a well set up bov system is. I hope I don't really need to make too many modifications to my current forge DV and ER CP setup.

  4. #104
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    If you guys cant tell, I am staying out of this thread on purpose. Yes I get a notification every time someone posts here but if I have no news whats the point. I have already reamed out my vendor more than once. I have a tracking number the parts are on the way, the testing has been beyond frustrating due in part to tons of dumb $#@! with the car, Dzenno was ready to tune AGAIN last night, I got to the spot, my hotspot wouldn't connect to my laptop, I sat there for an hour trying to fix it. Nothing doing, finally he went to bed, this isn't the first time $#@! like this has happened. I will say, I have tested the Billet wheels, and now I am testing the cast wheels, same map no changes, pulled turbos put cast ones in. They 100% make a difference in shaft speed, as I knew they would, almost 15,000 RPM more shaft speed at red line with the cast wheels, and between 7-12 throughout the rev band, the cast wheels have to work quite a bit harder to make the same boost and hold it. But the Billet wheels haven't been without their issues as well. They actually work too well, yes that's possible. We were getting what is known as low boost onset surge. Basically the 11 blade wheels, move so much air at such low shaft speeds, under normal driving conditions, low throttle opening / high load, IE on the freeway, passing without downshifting, etc etc. The compressor is actually making more air than the motor can ingest, this is classic surge condition and it takes out thrusts very quickly. We dealt with this issue on the the Dodge Caliber SRT, and possibly now on our Ecoboost. The solution is simple and its to go with a billet 6x6 wheel instead of the 11 blade, they flow just as much, they just do not move as much air down low. I already ordered the 6x6's wheels and they shipped with the flappers. They cost close the same and they are built exactly the same, small hub diameter for increased fin area etc. As the 11 blade "GTX" style wheel becomes more prevalent its becoming more clear that in very small frame, very tight AR's you can get this low boost onset surge. We thought it might happen, which is why we had the billet 6x6's as a back up in case. But only testing tells you these things.

    As for shipping date, they will ship when they are ready, yes they go pushed back, I can't control everything all of the time, and it happens. I am not going to rush them for anyone, as that's how things get screwed up. I get at least 4 emails a day asking when they are going to ship and usually respond I can ship them tomorrow if you don't want wastegates. No one has opted for that yet...Click here to enlarge

    You guys have been great and been patient, we are close, just a little more patience and we should be right there. So to clarify everyone who ordered the Billet wheel option will in fact be getting the Billet high flow wheels, they are just 6x6 instead of 11 blade and while close in cost they actually cost us a little more. Every instance where you find a low boost surge with an 11 blade the 6x6 cures it.

    Well I am going to get back to work.

    Thanks
    Interesting now we are testing the GTX wheels, meanwhile before it was reported extensive testing was done on these wheels, I can pull up the threaded if needed. But now we have surging and yet you (tony), have deposits $ on untested surging equipment. NICE, Now we have back ups again, unproven.
    i'm done. Give me my money back. You have my info.
    thanks.
    Cobb tuned, spec2+, wavetrac, DCI, ARdp's, AA fmic, forge DV's, M3 links & Sways, bbs lm's, bunch of exterior mods, and one happy BMW driver

  5. #105
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    Does this mean a spot is going to open up? Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    07 335i FFTEC 600 Click here to enlarge

  6. #106
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    Yup, my spot will be open
    i will not wait any further for more bull$#@!.
    thanks.
    Last edited by marcvtec; 10-17-2013 at 10:39 PM. Reason: Forgot to add in more crAp
    Cobb tuned, spec2+, wavetrac, DCI, ARdp's, AA fmic, forge DV's, M3 links & Sways, bbs lm's, bunch of exterior mods, and one happy BMW driver

  7. #107
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    Ehh...it is what it is lol. I've only been driving around with a damaged turbo for over two months another month or so won't hurt anything, will it? What's the worst thing that can happen? Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by Shadow007; 10-18-2013 at 02:28 AM.
    E92 Monaco Blue AT 335I/ VTT S2B2/ JB4 G5 w/ BB Flash/ BMS DCI/ ER CP w/ Synaspe BOV/ M2 Exhaust/VRSF Dp's/ ETS 5' FMIC/ BMS OCC/ Coolingmist CMGS Autolearn Meth Kit/ VMR V710/ ST V1 Coilovers/BMS Spacers/Aero Lip/m3 replica side skirts/m3 Spoiler/BSW stage 1 audio uprade/ P3 Gauge/Morimoto 15k HID AE/3k HID Fogs/ interior led upgrade/ painted reflectors/ black kidney grills

  8. #108
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    Ripping into the man isn't necessary to request a refund.

    I hope they come sooner rather than later for those on the list.

  9. #109
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marcvtec Click here to enlarge
    Interesting now we are testing the GTX wheels, meanwhile before it was reported extensive testing was done on these wheels, I can pull up the threaded if needed. But now we have surging and yet you (tony), have deposits $ on untested surging equipment. NICE, Now we have back ups again, unproven.
    i'm done. Give me my money back. You have my info.
    thanks.
    GTX style wheels have been tested extensively on many many platforms and they perform great, its just now coming to light that on some very small frame platform they can surge down low, if you can show me where I said we have extensively tested the GTX wheels in this platform that would be great. You can email me directly if you would like to request a refund. The policy is the same for everyone. Cheers

  10. #110
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marcvtec Click here to enlarge
    Yup, my spot will be open
    i will not wait any further for more bull$#@!.
    thanks.
    Even though I'm not very happy about last minute changes and the delays, at least I'm glad that he's testing the units and addressing the issues before he's shipping it out.

  11. #111
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jyeah Click here to enlarge
    Thanks for the update! Please do explain what you mean by a well set up bov system is. I hope I don't really need to make too many modifications to my current forge DV and ER CP setup.
    You have to make sure the BOV system, is working properly and getting the vacuum it needs. First off, no teeing off the line for things like gauges, meth kits, etc. The BOV needs a dedicated line from the manifold. We drilled and tapped one for our car. Also if you have the tial BOV, you need the black spring end of story, that vacuum chart they give is BS, the 11 psi natural spring that comes in almost all the kits for these cars are too tight, you get small surge before they fully open, we went to a black one and its so much better you can hear the difference immediately. Thats basically about it, run a dedicated line, and just make sure you have it adjusted right, ie sping tension if it has it, etc.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    GTX style wheels have been tested extensively on many many platforms and they perform great, its just now coming to light that on some very small frame platform they can surge down low, if you can show me where I said we have extensively tested the GTX wheels in this platform that would be great. You can email me directly if you would like to request a refund. The policy is the same for everyone. Cheers
    I hate to ask, but assuming the 6x6 billet wheels does not have the same surging issues as the GTX wheels (and other unknown issues, fingers crossed). Approximately how much longer (doesn't have to be an exact date) before the new setup would be adequately tested and ready to be shipped (at least the parts have a tracking number and are being shipped to you already, so I know it can't be too long)? Is another 2 weeks a safe assumption?

    I'm asking on behalf of myself and others that I know are interested and would like to be able to plan to have their turbo's installed ASAP.

    Thanks Tony!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    You have to make sure the BOV system, is working properly and getting the vacuum it needs. First off, no teeing off the line for things like gauges, meth kits, etc. The BOV needs a dedicated line from the manifold. We drilled and tapped one for our car. Also if you have the tial BOV, you need the black spring end of story, that vacuum chart they give is BS, the 11 psi natural spring that comes in almost all the kits for these cars are too tight, you get small surge before they fully open, we went to a black one and its so much better you can hear the difference immediately. Thats basically about it, run a dedicated line, and just make sure you have it adjusted right, ie sping tension if it has it, etc.
    What if I have the Forge DV with the yellow spring (1 to 1.6 BAR)? What's the amount of vacuum the BOV system needs? My setup is fairly straight forward, without any tee's for additional things.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jyeah Click here to enlarge
    I hate to ask, but assuming the 6x6 billet wheels does not have the same surging issues as the GTX wheels (and other unknown issues, fingers crossed). Approximately how much longer (doesn't have to be an exact date) before the new setup would be adequately tested and ready to be shipped (at least the parts have a tracking number and are being shipped to you already, so I know it can't be too long)? Is another 2 weeks a safe assumption?

    I'm asking on behalf of myself and others that I know are interested and would like to be able to plan to have their turbo's installed ASAP.

    Thanks Tony!
    There is no assuming, the 6x6 wheels wont surge down low. And yes I am actually testing things and getting data imagine that, what if I decided not to test, just cave into everyone crying because they have to wait a little longer, we would be dealing with 25 warranty issues because of thrust failure. I WILL NOT RUSH THESE, as I said previously, when they are done, they will ship. This isn't a cheap upgrade I assumed people would be happy we were actually hooking up instruments to the turbos and seeing what they are doing, but I guess I was wrong. We tested some more last night, the cast wheels have the shaft speed at 225K at redline on a pretty modest tune. Garrett turbos do about 160K full boost at redline. You can see why these things are hard to get to live. I am not getting into this guessing game on a ship date, the parts will be here, when the testing is complete they will ship. This is exactly what happened with batch 1, everyone mad cause they were late. You know what happened then, I shipped them and 90% of the people who complained the loudest took over a month to get them installed. John you have my email, I have talked to you this week. So if you want to email me, feel free. I'm again stepping out of this thread. When they are done, I will add an update.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jyeah Click here to enlarge
    What if I have the Forge DV with the yellow spring (1 to 1.6 BAR)? What's the amount of vacuum the BOV system needs? My setup is fairly straight forward, without any tee's for additional things.
    I can't diagnose every style BOV. Talk to your manufacture, the Forge DV's are the recirc style and I am assuming you have 2. From what I have seen now, I would go with at least 1 spring down from what was recommended and make sure they do not leak under boost. The Tial is a pull style and wont leak even with a weak spring.

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    I have forge DV's with the yellow springs. I feel like I haven't had any issues with them, I've had them on for about 80k+ miles. If they were a problem what would the symptoms be?
    335xi (sold)
    www.datazap.me - fast, free, interactive datalogs

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    There is no assuming, the 6x6 wheels wont surge down low. And yes I am actually testing things and getting data imagine that, what if I decided not to test, just cave into everyone crying because they have to wait a little longer, we would be dealing with 25 warranty issues because of thrust failure. I WILL NOT RUSH THESE, as I said previously, when they are done, they will ship. This isn't a cheap upgrade I assumed people would be happy we were actually hooking up instruments to the turbos and seeing what they are doing, but I guess I was wrong. We tested some more last night, the cast wheels have the shaft speed at 225K at redline on a pretty modest tune. Garrett turbos do about 160K full boost at redline. You can see why these things are hard to get to live. I am not getting into this guessing game on a ship date, the parts will be here, when the testing is complete they will ship. This is exactly what happened with batch 1, everyone mad cause they were late. You know what happened then, I shipped them and 90% of the people who complained the loudest took over a month to get them installed. John you have my email, I have talked to you this week. So if you want to email me, feel free. I'm again stepping out of this thread. When they are done, I will add an update.
    I think it's safe to assume your actual customers are happy that you actually did a final test before shipping them out. It's fine to give bad news and I respect that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jpsimon Click here to enlarge
    I have forge DV's with the yellow springs. I feel like I haven't had any issues with them, I've had them on for about 80k+ miles. If they were a problem what would the symptoms be?
    Hey Jonah, its not really a problem unless you have a very high flowing billet wheel, and its just about keeping as much surge away from the compressors as possible, the BOV system never vents it all. But its gets most of it, having it set up properly will just help that. Its just overall preventative care to keep everything going as long as possible. For the Tial guys, you def want to drop down at least to the white spring, but black is my suggestion

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Hey Jonah, its not really a problem unless you have a very high flowing billet wheel, and its just about keeping as much surge away from the compressors as possible, the BOV system never vents it all. But its gets most of it, having it set up properly will just help that. Its just overall preventative care to keep everything going as long as possible. For the Tial guys, you def want to drop down at least to the white spring, but black is my suggestion
    On Forge's website it has:

    Valve Spring color coding
    Green - 5-15 PSI
    Yellow - 15-23 PSI
    Blue - 23-30 PSI
    Red - 30 + PSI

    So I'm assuming Yellow would be fine for the most part.

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    I agree with Tony that having proper functioning DVs/BOV is crucial. However, on my car for instance I found that idle vacuum was higher than 10psi (20inHg) and I was starting to find dirt coming in because the BOV would stay open during light throttle/idle. Engine bay isn't sealed off to external elements and I found dirt entering the motor quite unacceptable Click here to enlarge The Tial BOV came with an unmarked/plain spring inside. I went up to a yellow (11psi) 2 months back. No issues since then with plenty of beating...

    Rule of thumb is, use a spring that matches your engine vacuum reading at idle once the car is fully warmed up.

    EDIT: For a Tial Q BOV (that most are running) here are the spring specs:

    -22 to -24 in/Hg use Brown- 12 PSI spring
    -20 to -21 in/Hg use Yellow -11 PSI spring
    -16 to -19 in/Hg use Plain -10 PSI spring
    -12 to -15 in/Hg use White -8 PSI spring
    -8 to -11 in/Hg use Black -6 PSI spring
    0 to -7 in/HG (or supercharger) use Green 2 PSI Spring
    Click here to enlarge

  21. #121
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    Wouldn't moving the BOV closer to the turbo help with the surge? Or does it's placement not really matter? At what point does the size of our BOV come into play?
    Last edited by Torgus; 10-18-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I agree with Tony that having proper functioning DVs/BOV is crucial. However, on my car for instance I found that idle vacuum was higher than 10psi (20inHg) and I was starting to find dirt coming in because the BOV would stay open during light throttle/idle. Engine bay isn't sealed off to external elements and I found dirt entering the motor quite unacceptable Click here to enlarge The Tial BOV came with an unmarked/plain spring inside. I went up to a yellow (11psi) 2 months back. No issues since then with plenty of beating...

    Rule of thumb is, use a spring that matches your engine vacuum reading at idle once the car is fully warmed up.

    EDIT: For a Tial Q BOV (that most are running) here are the spring specs:

    -22 to -24 in/Hg use Brown- 12 PSI spring
    -20 to -21 in/Hg use Yellow -11 PSI spring
    -16 to -19 in/Hg use Plain -10 PSI spring
    -12 to -15 in/Hg use White -8 PSI spring
    -8 to -11 in/Hg use Black -6 PSI spring
    0 to -7 in/HG (or supercharger) use Green 2 PSI Spring
    That's helpful to know.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I agree with Tony that having proper functioning DVs/BOV is crucial. However, on my car for instance I found that idle vacuum was higher than 10psi (20inHg) and I was starting to find dirt coming in because the BOV would stay open during light throttle/idle. Engine bay isn't sealed off to external elements and I found dirt entering the motor quite unacceptable Click here to enlarge The Tial BOV came with an unmarked/plain spring inside. I went up to a yellow (11psi) 2 months back. No issues since then with plenty of beating...

    Rule of thumb is, use a spring that matches your engine vacuum reading at idle once the car is fully warmed up.

    EDIT: For a Tial Q BOV (that most are running) here are the spring specs:

    -22 to -24 in/Hg use Brown- 12 PSI spring
    -20 to -21 in/Hg use Yellow -11 PSI spring
    -16 to -19 in/Hg use Plain -10 PSI spring
    -12 to -15 in/Hg use White -8 PSI spring
    -8 to -11 in/Hg use Black -6 PSI spring
    0 to -7 in/HG (or supercharger) use Green 2 PSI Spring

    I was looking up springs for these today because I felt my spring was too soft. At light throttle I could hear what I was pretty sure was boost blowing out of the bov. Once I hit about 30% throttle the air noise stopped and the car would take off.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BMWJunkie Click here to enlarge
    I was looking up springs for these today because I felt my spring was too soft. At light throttle I could hear what I was pretty sure was boost blowing out of the bov. Once I hit about 30% throttle the air noise stopped and the car would take off.
    Where were you finding these springs for purchase?

    Tony, definitely happy all of the testing is happening and that everything will be done right, I don't think anyone isn't happy about that.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I agree with Tony that having proper functioning DVs/BOV is crucial. However, on my car for instance I found that idle vacuum was higher than 10psi (20inHg) and I was starting to find dirt coming in because the BOV would stay open during light throttle/idle. Engine bay isn't sealed off to external elements and I found dirt entering the motor quite unacceptable Click here to enlarge The Tial BOV came with an unmarked/plain spring inside. I went up to a yellow (11psi) 2 months back. No issues since then with plenty of beating...

    Rule of thumb is, use a spring that matches your engine vacuum reading at idle once the car is fully warmed up.

    EDIT: For a Tial Q BOV (that most are running) here are the spring specs:

    -22 to -24 in/Hg use Brown- 12 PSI spring
    -20 to -21 in/Hg use Yellow -11 PSI spring
    -16 to -19 in/Hg use Plain -10 PSI spring
    -12 to -15 in/Hg use White -8 PSI spring
    -8 to -11 in/Hg use Black -6 PSI spring
    0 to -7 in/HG (or supercharger) use Green 2 PSI Spring
    Just from my testing over the past couple weeks and doing extensive reading on the subject I found having a spring that strong can induce slight surge when lifting, this surge is no where near as bad as on throttle surge, but over time can cause issues. I put the black spring in, and shimmed it with a couple washers to get it just closed at idle. Works perfectly and now I have the proper venting happening when I lift. With the tougher spring natural, there was a noticeable delay before venting and at lower boost almost no venting at all. With the lower spring and a little adjusting, I got it as it should be, full instant vent at almost any boost level as low as a couple psi. We also recommend the Synapse valve, it works well and doesn't rely on springs. This is just a suggestion and obviously you guys can do as you see fit, but from my experience, if you always use the spring Tial recommends, you will have the same results I was seeing, once properly adjusted you will be amazed at the difference it makes in venting.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 10-18-2013 at 11:18 AM.

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