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Thread: Fuel testing

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    Fuel testing

    As most of you know these cars have fueling issues. We've done the inline, we've done the intank but still have problems with 100% e85. I have been looking at other platforms for answers. From looking at places like supra forums and some gtr forums i have found out a few interesting things.

    1: Walbro 416, 267, 450. whatever you want to call it the walbro high flow E85 pump is badass A guy named Reid owns a 1000whp supra on 100% E85 with just 2 of these

    2: Running pumps in a series makes more pressure running them in parallel gives more fuel at the same psi. I believe parallel is the answer for us as its the most common thing done in big power applications as well as low pressure looking fine at least on my car from just 1 walbro 416.

    Click here to enlarge

    3: Lots of people have talked about doing bigger lines myself included. After a bit of research i found out that GTR's have 3/8 fuel line and they dont change that stuff out until over 1000whp on E85. Ours is smaller by a tad bit and the hard line on the hpfp feed is really really small but replacing this in my eyes would do nothing because the inlet on the hpfp is still going to be that small orfice. Im no fluid dynamicist but i would think if you have a 2 inch exhaust tips theres no point running a 4 inch catback.
    Click here to enlarge

    according to that picture a it seems like it would even lower pressure to the hpfp

    4: I thought about changing out the FPR. This would allow me to run a bit higher pressure to the hpfp and maybe help it out a bit but i honestly think the problem is flow now pressure. BMW designed the hpfp to be fed at 72 psi and we are getting that 72psi there i just dont think we are giving it enough fuel to compress. I may upgrade it in the future but as of now i think it is non issue.

    5: After reading a bit i have decided to keep things simple. I am going to run twin in tank walbro 416 parallel. This will give me close to double the liters per hour than i have now and im making around 450whp. I believe this double setup will give me enough for hopefully around 700whp of pure e85

    6: So i ordered the other pump put it in the bucket and its all going back in the car tomorrow. I will get some logs and well see how things go.

    Click here to enlarge
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    More pics! Especially how the other ends hook up to the venturi.

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    I'll get more pics when I have the bracket made. I have ran without a venturi for the past 15k miles and have tested to an indicated 5 miles left personally I don't even like running my car below 1/4 there's no room for a venturi really if you wanted to you could maybe hook it up with a t to the joined line but its pretty cramped as it sits
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    I am pretty sure the biggest problem is still the HPFP, are you running a single turbo? Not familiar with your setup.

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    Well see how this helps it may or it may not I'm stock turbo enroute to a single
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    gotcha, what are you using to log with?

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    Jb4
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    this has been tested before.. its still the HPFP that is the limiting factor on big WHP setups
    Click here to enlarge
    FBO's. Spec S2+. E85.

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    I hope you figure something out.. so far i have found its the HPFP and/or 1/4" limiting size that is our roadblock. Click here to enlarge
    - Proven Power Tampa built 6466 ST -
    - N54 6AT WR 711whp 637wtq-
    -N54 WR 1/4mile trap: 133.57mph- -

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    That second picture is kinda wrong. The pressure through the orifice should equal the pressure in the receiving chamber, which is typically lower than the initial chamber or you wouldn't have any flow to begin with.

    More on topic, if you decide to up pressure to the HPFP inlet, you will be fighting two systems of control. The FPR, which you can change out just fine. But the DME will also aggressively cut PWM to the pump in cases where you target higher pressures in some cases, which can be a real pain. Also IIRC the fuel control valve on the HPFP does odd things on occasion. I think the JB4 can be configured to monitor some of these parameters if they are of interest to you.

    You would probably want to up the pressure if you decide to remove some of the restriction on the HPFP inlet or go with the Vargas HPFP upgrade. Since the orifice is larger in those cases you'll probably want to in order to keep the fluid velocity up where it needs to be (can have the same effect as LPFP drops if the velocity is too low).

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    I have the vargas hpfp
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rdeterman Click here to enlarge
    this has been tested before.. its still the HPFP that is the limiting factor on big WHP setups
    725 WHP+ has been made with just modifying a few HPFS components. Which big WHP projects are you referring to having fueling issues? The only ones I have seen are the higher end stock frames because they need so much more fuel midrange, right where even the modified HPFS seems to struggle a bit.

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    100% e85 setups is what the problem is
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    725 WHP+ has been made with just modifying a few HPFS components. Which big WHP projects are you referring to having fueling issues? The only ones I have seen are the higher end stock frames because they need so much more fuel midrange, right where even the modified HPFS seems to struggle a bit.
    I should have been more clear.. All 100% E85 setups (no meth) are limited by HPFP. Sure we have seen a few cars make 600+whp on race fuel and meth but that is not what the OP is asking and or talking about. No matter what he uses on the low pressure side in his case the HPFP will be the limiting factor.
    Click here to enlarge
    FBO's. Spec S2+. E85.

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    Gains from using straight e85 vs e50 for direct injection are hard to realize since they are not related much to the effective knock suppression of the fuel in the conventional sense, on e50 if you can fuel it you should be more than capable of beating any race gas records knock and heat wise and then some. It'll allow you to grenade your motor from cylinder pressures just fine on its own merit. E85 would allow for thousands of horsepowers worth of cylinder pressures or more heat than you can possibly create, so don't stay up at night worrying about it much. It's cool but an unnecessary goal imo.

    Then again progression of the platform is cool and so is the lazy factor and handful of hp you'd get from the insignificant aspects of the additional ethanol fuel. Good luck OP.

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    I forget who the gentleman was on N54tech that did lots of testing on the fuel systems. Long story short, opening various restrictions on the fuel systems (HPFP inlet, fuel lines, Injector orifices etc.) did nothing. IMO it's a DME request/response issue.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Gains from using straight e85 vs e50 for direct injection are hard to realize since they are not related much to the effective knock suppression of the fuel in the conventional sense, on e50 if you can fuel it you should be more than capable of beating any race gas records knock and heat wise and then some. It'll allow you to grenade your motor from cylinder pressures just fine on its own merit. E85 would allow for thousands of horsepowers worth of cylinder pressures or more heat than you can possibly create, so don't stay up at night worrying about it much. It's cool but an unnecessary goal imo.

    Then again progression of the platform is cool and so is the lazy factor and handful of hp you'd get from the insignificant aspects of the additional ethanol fuel. Good luck OP.
    for many people.. inc me.. it's also laziness..go to station, fill up tank of E85, drive away Click here to enlarge

    never having to think/worry about percentages, other than 'is it a good station that actually provides me with pure E85? or is it a bad one that gives down to E70.. and am i tuned to the hilt for E85 or not?' -... personally, until it's relatively simple to run 100% E85, i have a station with 100RON not far away (about 95AKI).. it's no E85 or E85 blend, but it'll do Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I forget who the gentleman was on N54tech that did lots of testing on the fuel systems. Long story short, opening various restrictions on the fuel systems (HPFP inlet, fuel lines, Injector orifices etc.) did nothing. IMO it's a DME request/response issue.
    i don't remember that?

    vargas fuel pump seems to have shown, that in the HPFP alone, it can be modified for more flow

    and LPFP upgrades have shown to improve flow vastly, to the limit of the HPFP?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    725 WHP+ has been made with just modifying a few HPFS components. Which big WHP projects are you referring to having fueling issues? The only ones I have seen are the higher end stock frames because they need so much more fuel midrange, right where even the modified HPFS seems to struggle a bit.
    Actually 725WHP+ can be made with the stock HPFP. It is enough to remove the orifice and bore out the fuel rail and upgrade the LPFP.

    Still, there is no fueling solution for having even close to that power in the midrange. This is the problem OP is having.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    As most of you know these cars have fueling issues. We've done the inline, we've done the intank but still have problems with 100% e85. I have been looking at other platforms for answers. From looking at places like supra forums and some gtr forums i have found out a few interesting things.

    1: Walbro 416, 267, 450. whatever you want to call it the walbro high flow E85 pump is badass A guy named Reid owns a 1000whp supra on 100% E85 with just 2 of these

    2: Running pumps in a series makes more pressure running them in parallel gives more fuel at the same psi. I believe parallel is the answer for us as its the most common thing done in big power applications as well as low pressure looking fine at least on my car from just 1 walbro 416.

    Click here to enlarge

    3: Lots of people have talked about doing bigger lines myself included. After a bit of research i found out that GTR's have 3/8 fuel line and they dont change that stuff out until over 1000whp on E85. Ours is smaller by a tad bit and the hard line on the hpfp feed is really really small but replacing this in my eyes would do nothing because the inlet on the hpfp is still going to be that small orfice. Im no fluid dynamicist but i would think if you have a 2 inch exhaust tips theres no point running a 4 inch catback.
    Click here to enlarge

    according to that picture a it seems like it would even lower pressure to the hpfp

    4: I thought about changing out the FPR. This would allow me to run a bit higher pressure to the hpfp and maybe help it out a bit but i honestly think the problem is flow now pressure. BMW designed the hpfp to be fed at 72 psi and we are getting that 72psi there i just dont think we are giving it enough fuel to compress. I may upgrade it in the future but as of now i think it is non issue.

    5: After reading a bit i have decided to keep things simple. I am going to run twin in tank walbro 416 parallel. This will give me close to double the liters per hour than i have now and im making around 450whp. I believe this double setup will give me enough for hopefully around 700whp of pure e85

    6: So i ordered the other pump put it in the bucket and its all going back in the car tomorrow. I will get some logs and well see how things go.

    http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...WJwSoipl-1.jpg
    Great post my man, repped. Now to see how this all works out for you.

    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale
    : http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Little update I started the car it ran fine for about 2 minutes when I revved it up it died I thought maybe a line had popped off or a connection came loose so I messed around for an hour or so making sure everything was hooked up right it was. I tried starting the car again nothing. Turns out I blew the 20A fuse I am going to try a 25A and see if that works if not I'm not sure what the next step is because I would prefer to not throw a big fuse in and mess up other things. Maybe some kind of switch wired to the jb4 that acts kind of like a method switch for the second pump
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Is it possible to wire it directly to the battery and have an inline fuse? That way, you avoid the rest of stock wiring.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by blisstik Click here to enlarge
    Is it possible to wire it directly to the battery and have an inline fuse? That way, you avoid the rest of stock wiring.
    You should really do this and not reuse the factory wiring. Also, before you throw in a high amperage fuse make sure it isn't going to burn up the wire, unlikely but possible.

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    EVO guys run a hobbs switch to the second pump FYI. It's common place to see dual pumps. Might want to check that out. All use upgraded wiring also.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    You should really do this and not reuse the factory wiring. Also, before you throw in a high amperage fuse make sure it isn't going to burn up the wire, unlikely but possible.
    Switching from a 20 to 25 amp fuse will probably not be a problem, but it is impossible to say because we don't know the gauge of the stock wiring. And then there is the fuel pump control module, which would probably be the first thing to fail.

    A boost activate switch to turn on the second pump would make the most sense to me. The second pump should be powered from a dedicated circuit using a fuse as close to the battery as possible. Depending on the current rating of the boost activated switch, a relay might be necessary.
    Eppur si muove.

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