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Thread: Trans upgrades

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    Trans upgrades

    All over the forum i have seen that our trans is the ZF6HP21/19Z or TU. On real oem it says a weird GA6HP19Z. On wikipedia it says we indeed have a 6HP26. Im not sure which is more accurate but the 26 is the trans that is used in the new 5.0 mustangs its just rebranded by ford as the 6R80. There are a few companies that build the 6R80/ZF6HP26 transmissions to over 1000whp and even companies that sell upgrade components. I believe parts can be swapped in from the 6HP26. In fact on this companies website it says "Sonnax Zip Kit ZF6-6R60-ZIP targets the root cause of multiple complaints by sealing the critical circuit pressure losses in the ZF6HP19/26/32 (Generation 1) and Ford 6R60/6R80 valve bodies."

    so i think i am going to call a few places tomorrow and ask for certain if the 26 and our trans have the same internals and if so there has been a wealth of awesome trans options right under our noses.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ence-Documents

    according to this thread they are very similar and with slight modification we can easily upgrade our 21

    so if i can get a confirmation im going to be going with either a local guy using some of this stuff:

    http://www.transmissioncenter.net/6R...sion_Parts.htm

    Or using someone who does total builds on those trans like
    http://www.btamotorsports.com.au/ind...for-fg-falcon/
    http://www.circledtrans.com/6R80_modifications.php

    theoretically the only real difference between our trans and this one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yxekmav2eQ

    is that car has more clutches and slight valve body differences since the 21 which is in our cars is a gen 2 ZF 6hp
    Last edited by WDBi; 09-11-2013 at 06:47 PM.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Its not the 26. Its the 21. So with that in mind, where does that put you. I've already done a lot of reading around on the 26 and 6r80 been posting on other forums and reading the ford sites. There is no doubt about the 26's capabilities. Its the fact that there is nothing for the 21 at the moment. Bottom line: Nobody can write the TCU in the mechatronic. Well, I bet we could write to it but I doubt the TCU would accept the flashed file. It is also unlikely that a 21 mechatronic will operate a 26. If it would, then that is huge.

    The only option right now is swapping in a different transmission and hoping the DME plays nice.

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    If no once can write the TCU then why are the 6R80s putting down 8's and upwards of 1000whp and if you are talking about our TCU then people have already flashed it with the alpina flash i dont see why we couldnt adjust values in that flash to compensate for even more power then a gain im a complete coding noob. As far as hardware goes I think it should be relatively easy to have a transmission shop that knows what they are doing swap in some of the upgraded parts they use in the 6R80 into our cars.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Encryption... Key is a drama to break. See other topics. And the 26 is indeed not the 21 and sofar i''m not aware that anyone swapped 26 parts into a 21.
    Alpina FW is already encrypted and can be loaded but that has nothing to do with altering thw=e tcu for upgraded hw parts.

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    I've already got a thread on all this...you could look it up if you want to catch up on the conversation. We, as in 335i gassers have the 6hp21, not 26, 26 is comparable to the ford trans, yes, there are kits for it that take it to hold big torque, like 800+, but that trans is way different. Different size, different internals. Some of the plates are the same sizes, some of the internals are similar, but not the same. You can check that out on ZF's website, the manufacturer of boths trans.

    It will take someone willing to dish out the time and money to disect both trans and see what it would take if even possible to use similar parts. On top of parts, still the TCU issue as mentioned above. The TCU is WAY different than how our DME works, not as easy as changing a few tables and letting the DME adjust on its own. trans won't do that. Alpina flash is great, depending on what parts end up needing upgrade to hold big power then the Alpina flash will at least be a big help, but it's not the end game. I have a feeling much more info will come up in the next few months as more stage 3 cars hit the road and even larger power stage 2's...like myself...hit the road as well in even nearer future
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

    Click here to enlarge

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    You really aren't bringing any new information to the table, I have spent quite a few hours speaking with shops who have upgraded and have upgrades for the 26 tranny that comes in the ford, they are not compatible with the 21. If it were only that easy..Click here to enlarge A lot of people would be very happy.

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    whelp there goes that plan. i need a trans asap im getting closer and closer to just swapping in a manual
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    If no once can write the TCU then why are the 6R80s putting down 8's and upwards of 1000whp
    Because hard parts are the main ingredient in strength and durability gains. Only in some cases are software tweaks "Required" for those hard parts to do their job.

    and if you are talking about our TCU then people have already flashed it with the alpina flash i dont see why we couldnt adjust values in that flash to compensate for even more power then a gain im a complete coding noob.
    Because this would put us back 20 years in computing if any company wanting to protect this from happening would allowed that to be possible. There is a signature which is similar in a way to a check sum. It prevents ANY bytes from being modified, if a single byte changes, the cryptographic signature is broken and will fail. Alpina has their flashed file signed already by someone at BMW/ZF.

    As far as hardware goes I think it should be relatively easy to have a transmission shop that knows what they are doing swap in some of the upgraded parts they use in the 6R80 into our cars.
    And what makes you believe this? Because I've looked extensively at the cut outs and exploded views of the transmissions. They aren't even close to being the same in the right areas. Thats why there is such a huge power capacity disparity.

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    because i think at very least we could fit a exedy clutch kit as well as the sonnax kit. The exedy clutch kit says it fits a 19 and our trans is just a updated 19 and sonnax makes a kit specific to the 21 this may not fix the problem but it may help. However since we cant tune it it looks like us AT guys are $#@! out of luck.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    You really aren't bringing any new information to the table, I have spent quite a few hours speaking with shops who have upgraded and have upgrades for the 26 tranny that comes in the ford, they are not compatible with the 21. If it were only that easy..Click here to enlarge A lot of people would be very happy.
    Why no one want to support us, there's a huge market for the 6AT.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    because i think at very least we could fit a exedy clutch kit as well as the sonnax kit. The exedy clutch kit says it fits a 19 and our trans is just a updated 19 and sonnax makes a kit specific to the 21 this may not fix the problem but it may help. However since we cant tune it it looks like us AT guys are $#@! out of luck.
    there's a rebuilt kit from level10 for hp21, they said its 3 times stronger than the stock, but no one here tried level10 with high power n54 (650 or 700+ rwhp)

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    also level 10 has a horrible rep with some other platforms
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135idct Click here to enlarge
    there's a rebuilt kit from level10 for hp21, they said its 3 times stronger than the stock, but no one here tried level10 with high power n54 (650 or 700+ rwhp)
    also level 10 has a horrible rep

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 135idct Click here to enlarge
    there's a rebuilt kit from level10 for hp21, they said its 3 times stronger than the stock, but no one here tried level10 with high power n54 (650 or 700+ rwhp)
    From what I was told, the guy who left level 10 who was doing their trannys, left to start his own deal, he built a tranny for one of the ST and it failed in like 6 pulls or something around there. The solution just isn't there yet. Its going to take a lot of money and a lot of interest to get it done, as a lot of parts have to be manufactured, and the TCU has to be cracked.

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    I don't think the TCU has to be cracked. I think we just need parts, the right ones in the right areas. The 6R80 is holding up fine without a TCU re-tune. Show me one person who has actually flashed the 6r80/hp26 TCU with a custom file and I'll show you someone who can make a lot of money or a liar. I think the limits of the 21 are hardware before software. Granted the 26 is 'tuned' to withstand more power, I think there is more to be had with the 21 especially in the way of reliability before software becomes absolutely required. This margin of difference may be small though for all anyone knows. You may only get another 100ft lbs before the tune becomes the limiting factor.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    From what I was told, the guy who left level 10 who was doing their trannys, left to start his own deal, he built a tranny for one of the ST and it failed in like 6 pulls or something around there. The solution just isn't there yet. Its going to take a lot of money and a lot of interest to get it done, as a lot of parts have to be manufactured, and the TCU has to be cracked.
    to clarify that, the guy the ST sent his to did leave level 10, but that was years ago. there are now 3 competing companies within a few minutes of eachother in North jersey that build "high performance" transmissions. I contacted each of them and 2 were very shady to even talk to, let alone wanted like 8-12k to do the job. Level10 was the only one that actually talked and gave a decent price considering it was the platforms first. That means nothing if it wasnt built to the standards quoted though

    Mine was the first level 10 and it was rebuilt, and seemed to hold power fine, but i never tested it out full boost/racegas. So i cannot say if was any stronger than OEM. @enrita has it as well and has much more time on his.
    if the ST guy's failed then i would assume there are still no options

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I don't think the TCU has to be cracked. I think we just need parts, the right ones in the right areas. The 6R80 is holding up fine without a TCU re-tune. Show me one person who has actually flashed the 6r80/hp26 TCU with a custom file and I'll show you someone who can make a lot of money or a liar. I think the limits of the 21 are hardware before software. Granted the 26 is 'tuned' to withstand more power, I think there is more to be had with the 21 especially in the way of reliability before software becomes absolutely required. This margin of difference may be small though for all anyone knows. You may only get another 100ft lbs before the tune becomes the limiting factor.
    I've spoken with engineers at Sonnax and have done my fair share of reading on the topic of shifting behavior of the 6HP21 (exciting stuff I assure you). The transmission will seek to maintain a certain firmness to the shifts depending on the mode (D, DS or M). It does this by altering the pressures to the various valves and clutches, and the speed at which the pressure is applied. If you install something in the transmission like clutches with a higher coefficient of friction, the TCU software will just apply a different amount of pressure over a different amount of time to maintain the predetermined shifting "firmness".

    ZF licensed the IP to Ford to manufacture 6 speed transmissions based on ZF designs. This does not necessarily mean the ford transmissions are identical to the ZF ones.
    Eppur si muove.

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    i spoke to level 10 again today. I told them i want an all you can throw at it build on my trans. The said it could be done for $6500. This includes main shaft, clutches, valvebody, and torque convertor. They claim it can hold up to 900whp and 1200ft/lbs. I asked about the year warranty and asked if it blows up in a very short amount of time will they fix it and remedy the problem and the response was just we dont expect it to break. I then ask if they are 10000% sure it will hold the power and they brought up the fact they have built supra transmissions that run 8's. I then brought up the fact that their rep in the supra world is horrible and he responded that they havent built a supra trans in years. Overall if i havent heard the bad rep about them i would buy their trans it seems like they are quite confident that it will hold the power however from reading up on them it seems like they tell other people the same thing and a warranty is no good if your car is down driven for 50mile and then breaks again. In that case its just not worth the money at all.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    I've spoken with engineers at Sonnax and have done my fair share of reading on the topic of shifting behavior of the 6HP21 (exciting stuff I assure you). The transmission will seek to maintain a certain firmness to the shifts depending on the mode (D, DS or M). It does this by altering the pressures to the various valves and clutches, and the speed at which the pressure is applied. If you install something in the transmission like clutches with a higher coefficient of friction, the TCU software will just apply a different amount of pressure over a different amount of time to maintain the predetermined shifting "firmness".

    ZF licensed the IP to Ford to manufacture 6 speed transmissions based on ZF designs. This does not necessarily mean the ford transmissions are identical to the ZF ones.
    The TCU will only be able to tell the mechatronic to vary this pressure or delay/advance in time so much. Maybe its possible to bottom out the TCU's window of adjust-ability and get the catch that we need.

    It may be possible that ford did or didn't take this part of the tech... However I'm willing to bet they did. And thus, makes you wonder how they put down 1000hp on a transmission that is tuned to do much less.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    i spoke to level 10 again today. I told them i want an all you can throw at it build on my trans. The said it could be done for $6500. This includes main shaft, clutches, valvebody, and torque convertor. They claim it can hold up to 900whp and 1200ft/lbs. I asked about the year warranty and asked if it blows up in a very short amount of time will they fix it and remedy the problem and the response was just we dont expect it to break. I then ask if they are 10000% sure it will hold the power and they brought up the fact they have built supra transmissions that run 8's. I then brought up the fact that their rep in the supra world is horrible and he responded that they havent built a supra trans in years. Overall if i havent heard the bad rep about them i would buy their trans it seems like they are quite confident that it will hold the power however from reading up on them it seems like they tell other people the same thing and a warranty is no good if your car is down driven for 50mile and then breaks again. In that case its just not worth the money at all.
    Who does expect the transmission to break anyway? They are suggesting that they might in certain cases? I'd sure hope not. Raise your hand if you like to lose money........*cricket*

    So lets do simple math: They have a bad supra rep + They haven't built a supra transmission in a long time = They are good at building transmissions? That doesn't seem to add up right. They also state that the car will put down 1200ft/lbs... Based on what? Physical hard parts they are manufacturing and have identified as the failing points of the transmission? Based on dyno graphs that don't exist? Thats just a wild guess, shot in the dark. They seem to do nothing except measure this and clean up that and tinker with a few things. Nothing that would inspire me that the transmission holds any kind of new found power.

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    +1

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Who does expect the transmission to break anyway? They are suggesting that they might in certain cases? I'd sure hope not. Raise your hand if you like to lose money........*cricket*

    So lets do simple math: They have a bad supra rep + They haven't built a supra transmission in a long time = They are good at building transmissions? That doesn't seem to add up right. They also state that the car will put down 1200ft/lbs... Based on what? Physical hard parts they are manufacturing and have identified as the failing points of the transmission? Based on dyno graphs that don't exist? Thats just a wild guess, shot in the dark. They seem to do nothing except measure this and clean up that and tinker with a few things. Nothing that would inspire me that the transmission holds any kind of new found power.

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    You seem to think i am heavily supporting level 10 but im not. Its simply one of my only options at this point. I emailed them and told them something similar to what you said right after i called them saying how in theory what they say they can do to my trans would be great but with all thebad rep ive heard i just am hesitant and they responded back saying

    "Hi Will

    It was nice talking to you. But I’m not interested on upgrading your transmission. It needs the right software for the transmission to handle the power.

    Thanks

    Pat"

    lol so they told me all these things knowing they couldnt fix it.

    Ive already started ordering parts for a manual swap.
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    You seem to think i am heavily supporting level 10 but im not. Its simply one of my only options at this point. I emailed them and told them something similar to what you said right after i called them saying how in theory what they say they can do to my trans would be great but with all thebad rep ive heard i just am hesitant and they responded back saying

    "Hi Will

    It was nice talking to you. But I’m not interested on upgrading your transmission. It needs the right software for the transmission to handle the power.

    Thanks

    Pat"

    lol so they told me all these things knowing they couldnt fix it.

    Ive already started ordering parts for a manual swap.
    No, my reply was directed at their response to you, not you.

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    ahh ok do you know what the process would be like to flash to manual?
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    ahh ok do you know what the process would be like to flash to manual?
    A little bit. Gotta get some zusb number and some other stuff. Changing the vehicle order out. Its possible, if you get actually serious I can put you in touch with someone who has done a 6AT->DCT swap or ping some questions to him on skype.

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