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  1. #1
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    e85 and upgraded VTT's

    I'm struggling with the decision to run meth or go with e85 for VTT stg2 batch 2 setup. I actually have a e85 station in NJ right near my house so getting fuel really isn't much of a issue. It seems like it may be less problematic and cleaner as well since i won't have to worry about meth flow, fumes, storing the meth, etc.

    How much of a mixture can I get away with on the stock fuel system? 30%, 40%, 50%?

    Also, will the power with e85 and stock fuel system be comparable to a meth setup with a single meth nozzle?

    I will most likely have bren protune my car with a pump 93 map and a e85 map, so i can switch if I don't have access to e85 for some reason.

    thanks in advance for the responses!
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    Probably not the answer you are looking for but why not run both? it would be worth it especially on stock fuel system.
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    Stay away from meth. Too many horror stories with blown motors cause one dumb nozzle clogged. e85 is best.
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    The stock LPFP isn't going to last real long at ~e50 or more. Many people have ran e40 or less on stock fuel system for quite a while. With that being said, I'd tell anyone for max performance run e85 and meth on an N54. Problem is, I'm not a fan of running meth on a flash tune unless the meth system has a real failsafe that is capable of cutting/bleeding boost when a problem with flow is detected. I encourage ALL JB4 users to run meth as it is by far the easiest and safest. I remember years ago when people were saying that the JB4 didn't have a real flow sensor, a real fail safe, blah blah blah.... I've had meth lines pop off, pumps quit, etc on a JB4/FSB meth system and never hurt a motor. I'm not that confident that a meth kit not controlled by something monitoring the ECU can say the same.

    I will be trying out an aquamist HFS system on my EVO if I ever get it running though, just to learn how to run meth on a flash tune and to see exactly how safe it is/isn't.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    If you have E85 near you that one is a no brainer. Meth with HFS-4, its failsafe and a trunk mounted Howerton tank has been a rock solid setup with zero issues on many cars we've tuned. Certainly not a single blown up motor which can very well happen with subpar failsafe setups.
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    you might as well accept your going to do both Click here to enlarge

    your thinking that currently, E85 is so close and easy to get that you will run that most of the time. however, if you ever travel further away, you have to go to 93 map anyway. You will always have to make 2 gas stops to mix it. you will never know exactly how much E content you have and worry about the mix.

    after the above has happened, you will decide on an individual day by day basis, to run the 93 map occasionally.. but then the power will be less than your used to and it wont be as fun. At that point you will end up adding meth anyway just for that extra little bump for your new DD or conservative map Click here to enlarge

    but what do i know Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    If you have E85 near you that one is a no brainer. Meth with HFS-4, its failsafe and a trunk mounted Howerton tank has been a rock solid setup with zero issues on many cars we've tuned. Certainly not a single blown up motor which can very well happen with subpar failsafe setups.
    That is the exact meth kit i was going to go with. I'm just worried about flow issues, meth fumes and other annoyances. I put 5k a year on my 335. It sits in a heated garage from nov-march and is only started once a week or every other week. Its basically my weekend car since i have a ford fusion as a daily. I'm worried if i don't drive it a lot, the meth kit will have issues, and i'll have problems with flow. Maybe thats a dumb thing to worry about but i just have a feeling e85 would be easier to deal with.

    Besides car shows, my only long trips are to the beach on weekends and there is a e85 station near my house and near the beach, so i'm covered both ways.....

    keep the responses coming. Am I overthinking how troublesome meth is?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    That is the exact meth kit i was going to go with. I'm just worried about flow issues, meth fumes and other annoyances. I put 5k a year on my 335. It sits in a heated garage from nov-march and is only started once a week or every other week. Its basically my weekend car since i have a ford fusion as a daily. I'm worried if i don't drive it a lot, the meth kit will have issues, and i'll have problems with flow. Maybe thats a dumb thing to worry about but i just have a feeling e85 would be easier to deal with.

    Besides car shows, my only long trips are to the beach on weekends and there is a e85 station near my house and near the beach, so i'm covered both ways.....

    keep the responses coming. Am I overthinking how troublesome meth is?
    Aquamist along with the howerton tank setup are 100% methanol concentration friendly. This was one of the huge advantages hardware wise over some other kits out there which have failing even with 50/50 on the car let alone a strict diet of 100% meth 100% of the time. I had meth in my car, sitting, for a year while the cylinder head was getting built and there have been zero issues. I was actually worried about it coming back to the car after its been sitting that long. I literally added another 1/2gal of meth and went beating on it like it never sat more than a couple hours Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #9
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    @dzenno@PTF how does the meth failsafe work on the HFS-4 kit?
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    aquamist does make rock solid stuff. that's why i'm giving it a shot in the EVO. @dzenno what does it use to bleed/reduce boost in the event of a flow issue?
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    aquamist does make rock solid stuff. that's why i'm giving it a shot in the EVO. @dzenno what does it use to bleed/reduce boost in the event of a flow issue?
    i think you wire the hfs-4 controller directly to wire(s) controlling the wastegate solenoids. when hfs-4 detects flow issue, sends signal to open wastegates 100% to dump boost like limp mode. someone correct me if i am wrong.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    @dzenno@PTF how does the meth failsafe work on the HFS-4 kit?
    There are two parts to it. The first and most important is a true turbine based flow sensor that sees actual flow move across it and spin it. Once the failsafe window (which is part of the gauge) is configured for min/max flow you can also setup a delay to get to full flow. Once the car is tuned with the HFS-4 kit and its failsafe the controller is setup so that if anything falls outside these settings it'll go into failsafe mode. It grounds the wastegate solenoid line at the DME and which causes all boost to be dumped instantly (wastegates open wide). The other part of the failsafe is the tank level sensor. HFS-4's failsafe has now been tested on many different configurations tuning wise, including all out setups on stock and hybrid turbos, and has performed without a hitch. I really can't say enough great things about this setup and its the only one we'll recommend. It took a very long time to find that perfect meth setup that minimizes the headaches of running meth on a daily basis, requiring just fill ups and good times finally.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 09-04-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I ran E50 from about Sept. 2012 to end Nov. 2012 and again since March 2013 till now. (can't really enjoy the ponies in the winter) No issues, LPFP never dropped below 51 psi. rarely see low 50's anyway. But for the most part averages in the mid 60 psi range. I am sure my LPFP is getting taxed, but so far so good. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    The stock LPFP isn't going to last real long at ~e50 or more. Many people have ran e40 or less on stock fuel system for quite a while. With that being said, I'd tell anyone for max performance run e85 and meth on an N54. Problem is, I'm not a fan of running meth on a flash tune unless the meth system has a real failsafe that is capable of cutting/bleeding boost when a problem with flow is detected. I encourage ALL JB4 users to run meth as it is by far the easiest and safest. I remember years ago when people were saying that the JB4 didn't have a real flow sensor, a real fail safe, blah blah blah.... I've had meth lines pop off, pumps quit, etc on a JB4/FSB meth system and never hurt a motor. I'm not that confident that a meth kit not controlled by something monitoring the ECU can say the same.

    I will be trying out an aquamist HFS system on my EVO if I ever get it running though, just to learn how to run meth on a flash tune and to see exactly how safe it is/isn't.
    I'd much rather be able to run a piggyback controlled meth set up than a flash. However, that's not an option with my engine. Thankfully the ECU for the TSI is incredibly adaptive. We don't have many "custom" tunes for meth, most just run their tuner's 100oct file. Guys have run the 100oct file without meth for hundreds of miles without an issue (not purposely, just meth no flowing/forgetting to turn meth on, etc). Our ECUs adapt so quickly that once it sees too much timing is being pulled it backs down. Dynos have also shown 25+whp with meth on regular 93oct maps too, on bigger turbo cars.

    However, speaking to the universal HFS-4 system, there are a lot of guys starting to run this set up (Direct port injection) on the TSI. The "brain" or control box for the HFS mates with the ECU very well. in the event that the flow sensor can tell there's no flow, the brain tells the ECU to dump boost and you're alerted that there is an issue on the gauge (i'm 75% sure on that). Not sure if it's set up the same way on the n54.

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by chrisisnapping Click here to enlarge
    I'd much rather be able to run a piggyback controlled meth set up than a flash. However, that's not an option with my engine. Thankfully the ECU for the TSI is incredibly adaptive. We don't have many "custom" tunes for meth, most just run their tuner's 100oct file. Guys have run the 100oct file without meth for hundreds of miles without an issue (not purposely, just meth no flowing/forgetting to turn meth on, etc). Our ECUs adapt so quickly that once it sees too much timing is being pulled it backs down. Dynos have also shown 25+whp with meth on regular 93oct maps too, on bigger turbo cars.

    However, speaking to the universal HFS-4 system, there are a lot of guys starting to run this set up (Direct port injection) on the TSI. The "brain" or control box for the HFS mates with the ECU very well. in the event that the flow sensor can tell there's no flow, the brain tells the ECU to dump boost and you're alerted that there is an issue on the gauge (i'm 75% sure on that). Not sure if it's set up the same way on the n54.
    Yes, there is two yellow LED's when the failsafe activates, a single LED for low tank level.
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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    good to know. I've always like aquamist's kit. sounds solid.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    There are two parts to it. The first and most important is a true turbine based flow sensor that sees actual flow move across it and spin it. Once the failsafe window (which is part of the gauge) is configured for min/max flow you can also setup a delay to get to full flow. Once the car is tuned with the HFS-4 kit and its failsafe the controller is setup so that if anything falls outside these settings it'll go into failsafe mode. It grounds the wastegate solenoid line at the DME and which causes all boost to be dumped instantly (wastegates open wide). The other part of the failsafe is the tank level sensor. HFS-4's failsafe has now been tested on many different configurations tuning wise, including all out setups on stock and hybrid turbos, and has performed without a hitch. I really can't say enough great things about this setup and its the only one we'll recommend. It took a very long time to find that perfect meth setup that minimizes the headaches of running meth on a daily basis, requiring just fill ups and good times finally.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    50psi isn't good LOL. 72 is normal. 59psi and below is a good sign you should be shopping for an inline or a new in tank pump haha.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VNeBLOB42 Click here to enlarge
    I ran E50 from about Sept. 2012 to end Nov. 2012 and again since March 2013 till now. (can't really enjoy the ponies in the winter) No issues, LPFP never dropped below 51 psi. rarely see low 50's anyway. But for the most part averages in the mid 60 psi range. I am sure my LPFP is getting taxed, but so far so good. Click here to enlarge
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


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    DO BOTH!!! lol

    Running a 40%-50% ethanol mix the meth won't be doing much for octane but it will do wonders to keep IATs in check
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    I'm just going to stick with my original plan of running meth. Bren said the same as DZ, the HFS-4 kit is very reliable and the failsafe works well with the cobb.

    I guess i can always add e85 later.... LM's point about mixtures is a good one. Being able to be spot on with the mixture, and rely on e85 being actually e85, is going to be hard.
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    the DME has a decent window to compensate for variances in Ethanol content. if you're in the ballpark it's more than enough.

    Based on experience, I would tell you to do both. If you are going through the overhead of installing the meth kit (I have HFS4 and find amazing) why not fill some E85. Have a tune for both
    SOLD --'07 E90 335i, PTF COBB E50, HFS4, ER CP, ETS 7", AA DP, Vishnu Exhaust, DCI, ACT, Nitto Nt555

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by marv85 Click here to enlarge
    the DME has a decent window to compensate for variances in Ethanol content. if you're in the ballpark it's more than enough.

    Based on experience, I would tell you to do both. If you are going through the overhead of installing the meth kit (I have HFS4 and find amazing) why not fill some E85. Have a tune for both
    +1 Get a couple different maps that you can load through your Cobb. A pump + meth map and maybe an E40 + meth map
    Stuff

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    With G5 iso and backend flash I run a minimum of E50 and 80/20 meth with trunk mount bms kit. With the vargas stage 2's my car is a total beast. I run a 75 additive and daily drive on it and I hate running on just 93. I am totally addicted to the power. That can't be good for my cars future.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jzeee037 Click here to enlarge
    With G5 iso and backend flash I run a minimum of E50 and 80/20 meth with trunk mount bms kit. With the vargas stage 2's my car is a total beast. I run a 75 additive and daily drive on it and I hate running on just 93. I am totally addicted to the power. That can't be good for my cars future.
    Sounds great....do you have any dyno numbers? I really can't wait for my vtt stg 2 batch 2's.
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    Not yet. Had car in the shop for electrical issue and just got it back. I've paid for pro tune but need to line up ptf and dyno. My car went 11.76 on stockers and it is much quicker now so I have high hopes on dyno #'s.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I guess i can always add e85 later.... LM's point about mixtures is a good one. Being able to be spot on with the mixture, and rely on e85 being actually e85, is going to be hard.
    Just get Garth @ Undercover install the Walbro E85 LPFP & an ethanol sensor, put it somewhere hidden (ashtray) so when you get tuned for E85 you know the target % for ethanol concentration and your fueling trims should remain in check. Plus if it's a legit E85 pump, you'll most likely get something between 75-85% ethanol consistently from May to early Sept.


    It sucks that it's not going to be as convenient as the ProEFI "any E85" flex system, but that's probably as close as you're gonna get. I don't mind switching back and forth since I love how much more power the car has on the E85 map, but it def can be a bit of an inconvenience (especially if you despise data logging)
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