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  1. #301
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    Did you call IND for that??


    Again it's wrong/not firsthand info from you. And not verbatim of what was posted "over there" I personally, have not seen any change in fuel consumption, running catless for thousands of miles. Maybe even a little better 1-2mpg as stated.


    and FYI the primaries are ultimately responsible for fuel trims and the secondaries are to make sure everything (emissions) is working properly. If secondary o2's were doing a "full time" job then we wouldn't use emulators or even remove them altoghether on cars (yes you can do that).


    I remember a while back people (incl. BENVO) discussing the fuel trims and what 2nd o2 sensors do, but even then there was no data to to back anything up. And well, now that we know what Benvo is up to.... well
    I have really no idea what is up your trumpet. Remember, you started this out of the blue. And no, I didn't get the info from IND, I actually got that from my Porsche tech when I had my headers with high-flow cats installed, so this topic came up last week when we were wondering if the 200 cell cats would trigger the CEL.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    I see that, and it's like people are blinded and still lining up around the corner. I'm baffled really.. Although reading posts on that site doesn't surprise me considering.
    People are blinded? I have no idea what you are talking about. Lining up around the corner for what? I post my opinions on these forums (mostly unfiltered), and I'm obviously very sarcastic and cynical at times. I offer feedback when it comes to modding and that feedback comes from experience... what worked, what didn't, info I learned from techs, and developers, etc... You are the first one who says that I am spreading false information. I don't.



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    I should add not to talk in absolutes. Yes the rear o2 may be able to slightly affect teh fuel trims, but I have yet to see it as the trims are again maintained by the primary sensors.
    So again, I know you have a problem with me (nothing wrong with that), but before you call me out for some BS reasons make sure you can back it up.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  2. #302
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge
    I have really no idea what is up your trumpet. Remember, you started this out of the blue. And no, I didn't get the info from IND, I actually got that from my Porsche tech when I had my headers with high-flow cats installed, so this topic came up last week when we were wondering if the 200 cell cats would trigger the CEL.



    People are blinded? I have no idea what you are talking about. Lining up around the corner for what? I post my opinions on these forums (mostly unfiltered), and I'm obviously very sarcastic and cynical at times. I offer feedback when it comes to modding and that feedback comes from experience... what worked, what didn't, info I learned from techs, and developers, etc... You are the first one who says that I am spreading false information. I don't.






    So again, I know you have a problem with me (nothing wrong with that), but before you call me out for some BS reasons make sure you can back it up.


    that's in reference to people lining up for the BPM tunes

  3. #303
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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I'm sad that I'm no longer part of the Evolve henchmen : (

    During my "career" in the BMW scene I have been accused of:

    1. Being an ESS henchmen by the Gintani crew
    2. Being a Gintani henchmen by the ESS crew
    3. Being an Evolve henchment by BPM
    4. Being incredibly good looking and flat out hilarious

    Only one of these is true.

  4. #304
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    that's in reference to people lining up for the BPM tunes
    See, you get me all confused when you switch between unrelated topics and different forums.
    @Chris, you are one sexy beast, that's for sure.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  5. #305
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge
    Pot meet Kettle.

    I wrote that a tune will unlock the full potential (and more power) from a full exhaust. It is a fact. But yes, you still will have some power without a tune, I'm not disputing that. If a tune is worth that or not is debatable, but frankly if you go down the path of modding an extra $1K isn't really all that bad.

    Your O2 sensors are basing fuel trims off the oxygen or lack thereof it is finding in the exhaust system before the main cats. When it sees this value before the cats the ECU determines what to change in the fuel/air mixture to reduce emission. So when you don't run a tune with no cats this information is all faulty and will mess up your fuel consumption. Hence me saying that a tune is beneficial. So no, I am not wrong. But thanks for playing.

    No. The information is not faulty. The sensors do their job regardless of whether the primary cats are in place or not.

  6. #306
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SYZ Click here to enlarge
    No. The information is not faulty. The sensors do their job regardless of whether the primary cats are in place or not.
    Won't the oxygen levels change? And the since the sensors base the fuel trim on that, won't it be f@cked up? It takes that info and sends it to the ECU and that determines the change in the fuel/air mixture to reduce emissions.

    Love it how we discuss an unrelated topic from a different forum on here... jeez.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  7. #307
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    Click here to enlarge



    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    I'm sad that I'm no longer part of the Evolve henchmen : (

    During my "career" in the BMW scene I have been accused of:

    1. Being an ESS henchmen by the Gintani crew
    2. Being a Gintani henchmen by the ESS crew
    3. Being an Evolve henchment by BPM
    4. Being incredibly good looking and flat out hilarious

    Only one of these is true.

  8. #308
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    BEFORE cats Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge
    Won't the oxygen levels change? And the since the sensors base the fuel trim on that, won't it be f@cked up? It takes that info and sends it to the ECU and that determines the change in the fuel/air mixture to reduce emissions.

    Love it how we discuss an unrelated topic from a different forum on here... jeez.

  9. #309
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge
    Won't the oxygen levels change? And the since the sensors base the fuel trim on that, won't it be f@cked up? It takes that info and sends it to the ECU and that determines the change in the fuel/air mixture to reduce emissions.

    Love it how we discuss an unrelated topic from a different forum on here... jeez
    .

    but how else will you learn?? I kid, I kid..

    but on some wideband setups, yes, the rear plays more of a role..


    But you're misinformed.. o2 levels?? 02 sensors cannot change 02 levels, forget the name association. The primary 02 will measure the A/F ratio looking for 14:7 ideal conditions. Any variance it uses voltage to adjust the fuel trims of the injectors which then can tailor the amount of fuel delivered per the amount of air (oxygen) introduced into the combustion chamber. (hence 02 sensor)

    Now the rear o2 really just keeps things in check for emissions making sure things are working properly. Again, you can run w/ no cats w/ 0 issues (as I have been doing)..

    One certain cars that use a primary wideband the rear 02 has been noted as being used to help self-calibrate the front sensor and this may cause an issue with running emulators or spacers, but there is no issue on the m3.

    I previously ran mechanical antifoulers on my m3 and that kept the cel off from my old fabspeed setup.. Thinking of trying some cheap (if I can find them) mini cats in this x pipe

  10. #310
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    but how else will you learn?? I
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    kid, I kid..

    but on some wideband setups, yes, the rear plays more of a role..


    But you're misinformed.. o2 levels?? 02 sensors cannot change 02 levels, forget the name association. The primary 02 will measure the A/F ratio looking for 14:7 ideal conditions. Any variance it uses voltage to adjust the fuel trims of the injectors which then can tailor the amount of fuel delivered per the amount of air (oxygen) introduced into the combustion chamber. (hence 02 sensor)

    Now the rear o2 really just keeps things in check for emissions making sure things are working properly. Again, you can run w/ no cats w/ 0 issues (as I have been doing)..

    One certain cars that use a primary wideband the rear 02 has been noted as being used to help self-calibrate the front sensor and this may cause an issue with running emulators or spacers, but there is no issue on the m3.

    I previously ran mechanical antifoulers on my m3 and that kept the cel off from my old fabspeed setup.. Thinking of trying some cheap (if I can find them) mini cats in this x pipe


    I am aware of the fact that they don't change them, they measure them....

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by IMHOWTFFTW Click here to enlarge
    BEFORE cats Click here to enlargeClick here to enlarge
    Alright, so the 02 sensors determine if your cats are inadequate or fine in part by measuring oxygen content, in my case 02 spacers will help (according to fabspeed) with my high-flow cats to remove the CEL I'm receiving. How can that not effect the fuel/air mixture? Since if the sensors detect an inadequate cat it will try to decrease the emission otherwise, no? Thanks for the info!
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  11. #311
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    but how else will you learn?? I kid, I kid..
    Just got that... well played, sir.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  12. #312
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge
    Alright, so the 02 sensors determine if your cats are inadequate or fine in part by measuring oxygen content, in my case 02 spacers will help (according to fabspeed) with my high-flow cats to remove the CEL I'm receiving. How can that not effect the fuel/air mixture? Since if the sensors detect an inadequate cat it will try to decrease the emission otherwise, no? Thanks for the info!

    no the sensor is still operating w/in voltage but w/out a cat it will throw the CEL stating theres an emissions problem. did you even read the post? not being wise but it answers your Q

  13. #313
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    For your P car check on rennlist and 6-speedonline to see what others are doing but experiment with the antifoulers as they should work as it's just a mechanical device to pull the sensor away from the stream. The 90 degree foulers are nice as well and I used them on another setup that worked w/ no CEL either. You may have to experiment with a few to get the correct length to not trip the CEL but it should work well

  14. #314
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    Well, I just realized that the 991 has ONLY primary cats, and the sensor placement is different, so carry on...
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  15. #315
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    Do not want to step on S65e90's toes as he already somewhat responded. The primary O2's are wideband and really do the work(mixture related). Secondary O2's are looking at cat efficiency and if it throws a code( due to no cats) it will hamper performance in a small way but as we all try to squeeze that extra HP, it is important. Many will just carry a handheld code reader and clear when the CEL pops but that is mickey mouse.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge

    I am aware of the fact that they don't change them, they measure them....



    Alright, so the 02 sensors determine if your cats are inadequate or fine in part by measuring oxygen content, in my case 02 spacers will help (according to fabspeed) with my high-flow cats to remove the CEL I'm receiving. How can that not effect the fuel/air mixture? Since if the sensors detect an inadequate cat it will try to decrease the emission otherwise, no? Thanks for the info!

  16. #316
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    no the sensor is still operating w/in voltage but w/out a cat it will throw the CEL stating theres an emissions problem. did you even read the post? not being wise but it answers your Q
    Got it.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    For your P car check on rennlist and 6-speedonline to see what others are doing but experiment with the antifoulers as they should work as it's just a mechanical device to pull the sensor away from the stream. The 90 degree foulers are nice as well and I used them on another setup that worked w/ no CEL either. You may have to experiment with a few to get the correct length to not trip the CEL but it should work well
    Very few people are modding the 991... and the folks who run the headers with the cats have no problems so far. I'll order the spaces and check.

    Maybe Mike Benvo can write me a tune. Tying it back to the original thread.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  17. #317
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by IMHOWTFFTW Click here to enlarge
    Do not want to step on S65e90's toes as he already somewhat responded. The primary O2's are wideband and really do the work(mixture related). Secondary O2's are looking at cat efficiency and if it throws a code( due to no cats) it will hamper performance in a small way but as we all try to squeeze that extra HP, it is important. Many will just carry a handheld code reader and clear when the CEL pops but that is mickey mouse.
    I have only primary cats and primary sensors that handle all the work... so the tech (mine not Benvo's) was right, and you guys are right. Please don't make me go to rennlist.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  18. #318
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    I was curious if BPM is actually a "legitimate business" as they claim they're an LLC on their webpage.

    A search for BPM Sport on the CA Secretary of State's webpage turned up no results.

    Tax evasion anyone?

    http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/


  19. #319
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    Primary o2 will continue to work perfectly without the cats. Secondary o2 does have very very minor ability to adjust fuel. There is an official BMW document floating around explaining this. I may even have this at home in my TIS archive.

    What *may not* work perfectly is the ECU hitting the fuel targets due to the increased flow. This is the issue with the famous "Akrapovic dip" to the best of my knowledge. There are also some torque limits in the ECU that can be adjusted. Can you hit these limits with just a full exhaust? I don't know and I don't know what would happen if you did - just adjustment? limp mode? A real tuner will have to opine. WOW off topic, let me get us back on.

    Press K Mike.

  20. #320
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SYZ Click here to enlarge
    I was curious if BPM is actually a "legitimate business" as they claim they're an LLC on their webpage.

    A search for BPM Sport on the CA Secretary of State's webpage turned up no results.

    Tax evasion anyone?

    http://kepler.sos.ca.gov/

    An LLC is a pass through entity anyway, it is a separate tax return, but you still pay your actual taxes on your personal return.
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  21. #321
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by singletrack Click here to enlarge
    Primary o2 will continue to work perfectly without the cats. Secondary o2 does have very very minor ability to adjust fuel. There is an official BMW document floating around explaining this. I may even have this at home in my TIS archive.

    What *may not* work perfectly is the ECU hitting the fuel targets due to the increased flow. This is the issue with the famous "Akrapovic dip" to the best of my knowledge. There are also some torque limits in the ECU that can be adjusted. Can you hit these limits with just a full exhaust? I don't know and I don't know what would happen if you did - just adjustment? limp mode? A real tuner will have to opine. WOW off topic, let me get us back on.

    Press K Mike.
    I was wrong, although I have only primary cats, I checked my stock headers and I do have two separate 02 sensors within each unit as well. I'm still confused about the ECU hitting the fuel targets, but I'll fill up my headers with weed, smoke it, and mull it over... stay tuned...
    991 C2S | Fabspeed Sport Headers with 200 Cell High Flow Cats | Sharkwerks Free Flow Exhaust | FVD Brombacher Muffler Bypass X-Pipe | KW H.A.S. | BBS CH-R's Matte Titanium | RSS Spacers (7mm) | Michelin Pilot Sport Cup

  22. #322
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Team Plutonium Click here to enlarge
    I was wrong, although I have only primary cats, I checked my stock headers and I do have two separate 02 sensors within each unit as well. I'm still confused about the ECU hitting the fuel targets, but I'll fill up my headers with weed, smoke it, and mull it over... stay tuned...


    Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by s65e90 Click here to enlarge
    that's mature. You're wrong simply put. I have run cars with and without cats and without a tune and yes the gains are still present. It's still worthwhile if you don't wanna fork out 1,000 for a "canned" tune. And the gas mileage?? It stays the same, or a little better from the better exhaust setup.

    The tunes can extrapolate more power but again I haven't seen much other than these canned tunes that this thread is about. I'm holding out for a good dyno tuning session.

    But from firsthand experience, I would def recommend removing the cats either way (tuned or not). Only annoying thing is the CEL, and there's other ways around that also. Point is, you talk in absolutes but your info is misguided.
    My gas mileage never changed with no cats or the CEL on. Why would it exactly?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SYZ Click here to enlarge
    No. The information is not faulty. The sensors do their job regardless of whether the primary cats are in place or not.
    Exactly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    My gas mileage never changed with no cats or the CEL on. Why would it exactly?

    it shouldn't or wouldn't is/was my point. The cats are nothing more than a hamper to a performance car.

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