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  1. #76
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    Water under the bridge. Turd down the drain. Tits in our faces. If anyone wants to do any disagreeing, then refute this post. Oh wait, bryces or his brother is gay or something. Besides him.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Njz Click here to enlarge
    Yawn. These defensive posts towards terry for posting dyno results and logs is tired. If you don't want to be measured against your competition then maybe you guys are in the wrong lines of work. Every company anywhere gets judged not only on their results but the results of their direct competition. Tony has been in business long enough to know this, maybe d hasn't yet but it's coming across as childish whining because big bad terry came into your threads and posted (gasp) a comparison. This isn't the forum where whining wins you points and customers, here you put up or shut up.
    Obviously you completely missed the entire post and came in at the end. I welcome the competition, bring it on. RB's will not be king of the hill much longer, they are going the way of the dinosaur, and these are just some thrown together experiments to see how the garrett profiled wheels would work (there was never a single doubt in my mind, its just the other guy telling people they wont work in these housings and that the billet wheels are for looks only) as expected the wheels are working well. The statement unless you run on the same dyno there is no comparison. That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements made in a while. People live all over the world! Dyno numbers are what bring the comparisons together, its not comparable unless they run on the same Dyno. Yawn. Now that we got a pump and meth dyno done, D will get some race gas in there, throw a little more boost and timing at it, put it back on the dyno then take it to the track. Should be interesting weekend. Stay tuned,

  3. #78
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    Nice!! Products and numbers speak for themselves!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Obviously you completely missed the entire post and came in at the end. I welcome the competition, bring it on. RB's will not be king of the hill much longer, they are going the way of the dinosaur, and these are just some thrown together experiments to see how the garrett profiled wheels would work (there was never a single doubt in my mind, its just the other guy telling people they wont work in these housings and that the billet wheels are for looks only) as expected the wheels are working well. The statement unless you run on the same dyno there is no comparison. That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements made in a while. People live all over the world! Dyno numbers are what bring the comparisons together, its not comparable unless they run on the same Dyno. Yawn. Now that we got a pump and meth dyno done, D will get some race gas in there, throw a little more boost and timing at it, put it back on the dyno then take it to the track. Should be interesting weekend. Stay tuned,
    I have plenty respect for you, but, it's sounds like the same old song right now. If I'm not mistaken you've done the same thing in Shiv's threads and RB's. Just saying, don't throw stones in a glass house.


    This $#@! is getting played out. Lets move this platform forward and enjoy. The vendors will make money when they deliver....

  5. #80
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    OH MY GOD. When I say I like tits, I do that to reset the conversation to something everyone can agree with. Lets just talk about real stuff and stop going back and forth.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
    Awesome numbers. This is a stock frame turbo record is it not? Some awesome stuff coming from PTF and Vargas!!!!
    stock frame stock head yeah i think?

    dzenno made 55x on RB's with his modified head.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    How does every one of my threads end up in a $#@!ter with Terry coming in to offer "helpful" insight? Click here to enlarge How was this a discussion about the JB or anything Terry or BMS related? Please have the courtesy to stay out of our threads as we do out of yours unless you truly have constructive feedback on the topic presented.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry, what is your point. Lets be very clear here. No bull$#@!. Are you trying to bash VTT and promote RB's in a thread about my products? Because if you are then I need to rethink our relationship. So either come out say it straight up or don't but right now you are clearly trying to discount something we are doing. Why, who knows.

    Also this "its from a different dyno so not sure how its relevant" makes no sense. Thats like saying, Ok guys listen up, if anyone want to make any comparisons what so ever, you need to ALL come to the same dyno and run your cars, if not, yeah its not relevant. Come one man, you are smarter than this. Just stop with the backhanded garbage already
    o...k... now i'm going to defend tony in this thread

    you guys were claiming that your turbos were making more power than RB's ever had.. which is untrue, and terry fairly plainly stated?

    no need to be attacking tony now, THIS TIME the two of you are coming off the worse.
    boop

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    I've been gone a while so I didn't read the whole thread. But this post seems to have started it-

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    We've had plenty of customers make 520rw+ over the years so I don't think 523rw is a record. I'm sure 550rw is though. But records aside I think what would be best would be just to focus on the products, what they have in common, and what is different. Making peak power is a very important factor. But how it holds that power to redline, the risks for smoking, potential logevity, spool, etc, are also important factors and I'm sure readers would be interested to read about.
    Am I the only one who read that as non-confrontational? I read that as "hey, that's not necessarily a record, at least any big leap forward... so you might want to be careful throwing the label around. Instead of calling it a record, you may want to also emphasize how much awesomer the VTT thrust components are, and all the other engineering work that makes them not only competetive number wise but superior to alternative products"?

    Because that's how I read it. And then everyone got pissy at Terry. Seemed almost like he was setting you up to discuss the benefits to the stage 2's over competition again... (read- free advertising)

    And didn't you guys ask for a dyno? Ugh.

    Shinanigans!

    Back on topic, sick numbers D! Looks like a clean run for sure! Do you have a build thread for the motor yet or is it secret?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Nice thread, although a datalog of these VVT/ASR turbos would be awesome. But why relate a “future” turbo’s performance to a current “different” turbo. When maxing out these small frame turbos, what is thought to be a minor difference can make a big impact.

    Yes, please dumb down the differences to RBs... since they were brought up.
    I believe compressor wheel has similar size but different design
    What is the turbine’s wheel measurements?
    CHRA used?
    WGs altered from stock for this design?
    Any special machining needed?

    Good thread and rev2 looks promising… if you can truly use this as a comparison.

    Wait, I re-read a couple of posts

    Come on turbo guy Tony. If the turbine sizes are different you can’t relate boost and WGDC. If these are the same when turbine variable is NOT, what has to change? You can’t have everything equal, except 1 variable with equal results, as you are alluding to. These are basically maxed out and yes turbine size will make a different… potentially substantial... even with tiny A/R. You can’t relate this application to others with more typical BPs.

    From what I thought I knew about rev2 and RBs… are you stating that smaller turbine wheel in VVT rev2s will perform equally/better than RBs due to the new compressor wheel design… ALL based on this VVT/ASR dyno and datalog. That’s quite a many steps to reach a conclusion.

    If you could sum it up with specs, this would be great. I’m getting confused.
    It's a little strange how Tony spent a week slamming ASR relentlessly only to use their turbos (or a derivatives of it) in this test. Also strange is how he can use these results to predict the performance of his yet-to-be-produced turbos that don't even use the same components. Also strange that he complains others of attacking him when they are merely posting up relevant data and/or asking legitimate questions.

    FWIW, we made 530whp several years ago (on ASR turbos) with bone stock engine, on a 100F day in Florida, before the Procede had CAN integration let alone a back end flash. So I don't know the relevance of dyno results on a one-off car with a fully ported cylinder head.

    So Tony, if you are going to post data, and expect it to be well-received, you may want to conduct testing in a car that allows everyone to compare apples to apples. Just a suggestion Click here to enlarge

    Good night
    shiv

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    It's a little strange how Tony spent a week slamming ASR relentlessly only to use their turbos (or a derivatives of it) in this test. Also strange is how he can use these results to predict the performance of his yet-to-be-produced turbos that don't even use the same components. Also strange that he complains others of attacking him when they are merely posting up relevant data and/or asking legitimate questions.

    FWIW, we made 530whp several years ago (on ASR turbos) with bone stock engine, on a 100F day in Florida, before the Procede had CAN integration let alone a back end flash. So I don't know the relevance of dyno results on a one-off car with a fully ported cylinder head.

    So Tony, if you are going to post data, and expect it to be well-received, you may want to conduct testing in a car that allows everyone to compare apples to apples. Just a suggestion Click here to enlarge

    Good night
    shiv
    Dezenno's motor was removed to be built. He ran a stock N54 with ~50k miles from a 535 for this dyno or something, so it's apples to apples as well as can be. It's ok... I didn't read the whole thing either. It used to irk me when blanket statements were made using a car with a ported head, although the numbers were always so pretty. That's not the case here at least.

    As for relevance, there really is none other than it's interesting to see that wheel with that turbine. What will be more interesting will be seeing that wheel with the other turbine. Although with hybrids they all seem to be about the same number wise, shocking I know. Still get my vote.

  12. #87
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TLO03 Click here to enlarge
    Any info @rader1 ?
    Yep, not really sure what's going on. Strapped the car down on the dyno and we did a pull on jake's DD map that I've been running and the car was down on power. With no map, fueling or hardware changes the car went from 472/500 to 428/456. There is no smoking or rattles coming from the turbos and the logs looked beautiful(NO issues hitting boost targets) and the car sure as hell doesn't feel like it's down 50whp so i'm really not sure what to make of the "baseline."

    Anyway, we got the tuning done and jake picked up ~35rwhp/~50rwtrq and ended up at 460rwhp/504rwtq. 21psi tapering to 17psi and ~13 degrees of advance. The gains are super solid and the car definitely hauls ass, it's just disappointing the numbers are off from where they were, that should've been 500rwhp/550rwtq numbers and i'm just not sure why they weren't.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rader1 Click here to enlarge
    Yep, not really sure what's going on. Strapped the car down on the dyno and we did a pull on jake's DD map that I've been running and the car was down on power. With no map, fueling or hardware changes the car went from 472/500 to 428/456. There is no smoking or rattles coming from the turbos and the logs looked beautiful(NO issues hitting boost targets) and the car sure as hell doesn't feel like it's down 50whp so i'm really not sure what to make of the "baseline."Anyway, we got the tuning done and jake picked up ~35rwhp/~50rwtrq and ended up at 460rwhp/504rwtq. 21psi tapering to 17psi and ~13 degrees of advance. The gains are super solid and the car definitely hauls ass, it's just disappointing the numbers are off from where they were, that should've been 500rwhp/550rwtq numbers and i'm just not sure why they weren't.
    I would do a quick compression test, to rule out piston ring land damage. 20 min test will save a lot of time.
    Change is constant

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    The problem here is that people spend too much time being on tilt, ready to defend the honor of their self perceived nut swinging duties rather than actually reading anything and letting objectivity, facts, or even just a tiny bit of common sense come into play.


    So the original VTT Stage 2 offering (now known as beta 1's or as I prefer to call them "beta' keep tryings") have yet to kick out a single good result, last hope is radar1 to my knowledge and his results are poor but consistent with the rest. Sad considering these were first dubbed as "Budget RB killas" lol. Now 1 year has gone by and its late 2013 and VTT is still at it with speculative results and the "I will get you my pretty" slams on RB. Bring it, wicked witch of the west. I'll hang here w toto in Kansas and await the day. I've got time. Oh and BTW one more botched attempt at besting RB and you too will melt away, but no pressure on the re-done 2's. For the others who maintain the VTT campaign don't be upset when you buy another under performing dud because as they say "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." I don't even think you can add a fool me three times...


    Here is a lil quote for some smarter ones to read between the lines about what is going on with this thread, if I have to explain it you likely fit into the first paragraph above anyway so I won't bother:


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech
    I totally agree. Taking these (ASR units) apart, I was admiring the serious engineering that went into getting these Garrett CHRA's into the stock housings. That wheel is huge and looks like it has a lot of potential. I played around with them some, prob will some more. The one thing I noticed that I didn't like was in order to get the CHRA to sit properly in the spaced machined for it. They had to leave the heat shield out. To me not something you would want to do knowing how much heat these turbos build up. Besides that they seemed solid.

    Have a great weekend,
    Rob

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    Rob, I was looking at your website and I see that you have upgraded thrust as a option. Has it always been this way? I didn't know you offerd it separately. Thanks, Aaron.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by The Ghost Click here to enlarge
    I would do a quick compression test, to rule out piston ring land damage. 20 min test will save a lot of time.
    My thoughts exactly. I dont think the engines hurt but it's a test worth doing anyway.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    The problem here is that people spend too much time being on tilt, ready to defend the honor of their self perceived nut swinging duties rather than actually reading anything and letting objectivity, facts, or even just a tiny bit of common sense come into play.


    So the original VTT Stage 2 offering (now known as beta 1's or as I prefer to call them "beta' keep tryings") have yet to kick out a single good result, last hope is radar1 to my knowledge and his results are poor but consistent with the rest. Sad considering these were first dubbed as "Budget RB killas" lol. Now 1 year has gone by and its late 2013 and VTT is still at it with speculative results and the "I will get you my pretty" slams on RB. Bring it, wicked witch of the west. I'll hang here w toto in Kansas and await the day. I've got time. Oh and BTW one more botched attempt at besting RB and you too will melt away, but no pressure on the re-done 2's. For the others who maintain the VTT campaign don't be upset when you buy another under performing dud because as they say "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." I don't even think you can add a fool me three times...


    Here is a lil quote for some smarter ones to read between the lines about what is going on with this thread, if I have to explain it you likely fit into the first paragraph above anyway so I won't bother:





    Have a great weekend,
    Rob
    I would honestly appreciate it if you keep my name out of your mouth.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    How does every one of my threads end up in a $#@!ter with Terry coming in to offer "helpful" insight? Click here to enlarge How was this a discussion about the JB or anything Terry or BMS related? Please have the courtesy to stay out of our threads as we do out of yours unless you truly have constructive feedback on the topic presented.
    You can ban people from threads you create man...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Terry, you're a vendor and have been one for about 5-6 years. It took me personally a number of months after becoming a vendor on the forums to stay away from commenting in an open way that I used to in other vendors' threads. I don't see see it appropriate anymore given I'm no longer just in a position of an enthusiast. It serves nothing but but a waste of time and turns every single thread in a pissing match with everyone.

    I've shown enough respect towards you over the years. I've already said on a couple occasions that I am not posting in a non-constructive way or in any way that could/would even remotely be interpreted as negative criticism by anyone including any BMS die hard fans. Since becoming a vendor I've learned that there's no need for that and that results always speak louder than words.

    It would be great if you could extend the same courtesy. Your discussions are simply not objective and are always biased and swing towards BMS' results which I don't blame you for but please stay out of our threads. Is that too much to ask?
    You guys want to get into it go nuts and whatnot your own customers will judge you but I want to point out vendor's are held to different standards.

    I told you this early on and every vendor here should know that. I'm not pointing to anyone specifically respect each other and respect each other's threads.

    If you can't get along the tools exist for each vendor to protect their own threads. Member threads are always neutral ground.

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    3 out of 3 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    You guys get your panties in a bunch so quickly.

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

    Whether this is a record or not got muddied. I remember a 550 something result I believe from upgraded turbos with meth? I think it was even posted by Dzenno.

    This curve is beautiful and the numbers are very nice. It's a great result. It isn't blown M3 great but it's nice. There you go, something else for the kids to take issue with and argue about Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo Click here to enlarge
    The problem here is that people spend too much time being on tilt, ready to defend the honor of their self perceived nut swinging duties rather than actually reading anything and letting objectivity, facts, or even just a tiny bit of common sense come into play.


    So the original VTT Stage 2 offering (now known as beta 1's or as I prefer to call them "beta' keep tryings") have yet to kick out a single good result, last hope is radar1 to my knowledge and his results are poor but consistent with the rest. Sad considering these were first dubbed as "Budget RB killas" lol. Now 1 year has gone by and its late 2013 and VTT is still at it with speculative results and the "I will get you my pretty" slams on RB. Bring it, wicked witch of the west. I'll hang here w toto in Kansas and await the day. I've got time. Oh and BTW one more botched attempt at besting RB and you too will melt away, but no pressure on the re-done 2's. For the others who maintain the VTT campaign don't be upset when you buy another under performing dud because as they say "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." I don't even think you can add a fool me three times...


    Here is a lil quote for some smarter ones to read between the lines about what is going on with this thread, if I have to explain it you likely fit into the first paragraph above anyway so I won't bother:





    Have a great weekend,
    Rob
    No offense but that was one of the gayest postings I've seen. Not taking sides as I don't have any upgraded turbo's yet but I'm pretty sure that there's been plenty of posts already stating that the power output of upgraded stock frame turbo's are going to be close when pushes no matter what you do. The Dyno, the fuel, the meth everything is going to skew the numbers a little and at the end of the day any record beating number isn't really going to mean $#@! other than good for you and wow you didn't fry anything in the process. I do like the fact that Tony is trying newer tech and selling turbo's with upgraded parts in the hopes of having longer lasting turbo's when people beat on them (possibly needlessly). This isn't E90Post people can decide for themselves what they feel is relevant if it's new tech making sales maybe you should have been on top of your game in the marketing department, if it's dealing with a known N54 solution then your good. Either way it doesn't help your position when you sit there and whine.
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    Thinking poorly of Rob how he interjects himself into VVT threads is understandable. BUT look at the overall picture, which is VVT not performing up to "claims" of equal performance to RBs. Up to this point, the best comparison after whiffing on rev1 is: hybrid manufactured turbo toted as similar to rev2 that hasn't been produced yet. Somehow 2 different designs of compressors and 2 turbine wheel sizes, along with more intricately machined housing of these in OP (I think) equals similar performance.

    This is all extrapolated to rev2 performing better than RBs. Maybe but maybe not... we don't know yet... but Tony does and he also knew this prior to rev1.

    I can see Rob wanting to counter some of these claims.

    EDIT: oh yeah, car in below link is PERFECTLY setup for either turbo option Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by JoshBoody; 08-18-2013 at 12:00 AM.

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    Honestly I don't think it will be a fare comparison until vendors and at least 1-2 cars actually do an RB vs VTT comparison. Same car multiple tunes to see what numbers each put down. I'd like to see a stage 1, stage 2, and High boost of either E85/Meth/race gas comparison back to back with similar weather. That will really be the only way to prove that one is actually doing better than the other. Anything else IMO won't be an accurate comparison since each Car/Dyno/Setup is slightly different.

    Throwdown? I think it would be cool if the vendors ponied up a setup of turbos for a few customers willing to go through the headache of installing both sets and in the end getting the set that they liked the best at cost of below cost. I think it should be a few cars as anything with enhanced performance upgrades like that there always seems to be there little mishaps and peoples cars are down for months on end.
    2008 135i - Cobb AP, JB4 G5 w/2Step&FSB, MS DP's, Berk street exhaust, AMS IC, VTT Inlets, UR Intake, ER CP w/Tial BOV, Spec 3+ & Steel FW, CDV delete, Quaife LSD, DSS Axles, M3 control arms, M3 rear SF bushings, M3 Trans bushings, SS brake lines. Pics

  24. #99
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
    Honestly I don't think it will be a fare comparison until vendors and at least 1-2 cars actually do an RB vs VTT comparison. Same car multiple tunes to see what numbers each put down. I'd like to see a stage 1, stage 2, and High boost of either E85/Meth/race gas comparison back to back with similar weather. That will really be the only way to prove that one is actually doing better than the other. Anything else IMO won't be an accurate comparison since each Car/Dyno/Setup is slightly different.

    Throwdown? I think it would be cool if the vendors ponied up a setup of turbos for a few customers willing to go through the headache of installing both sets and in the end getting the set that they liked the best at cost of below cost. I think it should be a few cars as anything with enhanced performance upgrades like that there always seems to be there little mishaps and peoples cars are down for months on end.
    The problem is if they are equally priced and equally equipped and equally reliable, then that puts one of them completely out of business. I think they would rather share the market and not take the risk. Not to mention its better for the consumer to have competition.
    Click here to enlarge
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    I'm not sure where Rob is coming from because there were videos posted of the VTT Stage 2's vs RB's and they performed about the same. I'm sure both turbo's are awesome and one holds a dyno record and the other one doesn't. Tony stated that this was pretty much a one of kind of turbo but I'm not sure why he would release the numbers if this turbo is not going to be built even.
    RB's, Motiv PI, AR Downpipes, ARK exhaust, Stett CAI, Stett CP TAIL BOV, ETS FMIC, 1M Ohlins road and track conversion, M3 Bushings, VTT inlets, BMS Clutch Stop. SPEC Stage 3+ with MFactory flywheel

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