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  1. #26
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    If what you say is accurate then all flex fuel solutions from stand alone manufactures suffer the same flaw ? As an example haltech offers a flex fuel sensor that outputs a linear 0 to 5 volt output.

    Harry

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dirty Dog Click here to enlarge
    Some interesting info from Vishnu on this same topic/thread here.

    http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=877168
    Let me know if anything I've said is incorrect.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dirty Dog Click here to enlarge
    Some interesting info from Vishnu on this same topic/thread here.

    http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=877168
    I wish I had a button that let me virtually punch you in the balls.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
    I see the TDC coming in to play when physically setting the CAM timing but when it comes to the actually VANOS cam Phasing I would think that the cam sensor might be used. But it could be using the cam sensor for referencing which cylinder is on which cycle and using the crank for the exact timing but I still think that there's a possibility that either the cam sensor or just a hard codes PWM could be used for phase the cam and the VANOS timing might not be affected. Curious to see if anybody had dug that deep into how the DME works.
    AFAIK crank sensor times injection, ign, VANOS and cam sensor is used to measure cam relative to crank... VANOS actual versus req. traditionally without cam phasing cam sensor just locates which piston stroke.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'm a bit too lazy to get in to it at least at the moment. But as a short answer knowing the actual ethanol content itself is not overly useful. It's just half of some equation that you don't have the other half of. Just because you know you have E38 in the tank doesn't tell you how to set the fuel trims, advance, boost, etc, for your car, climate, and conditions. But what is useful is monitoring your fuel trims and adjusting fuel biasing so they always stay within a safe range, and monitoring knock activity and adjusting your timing & boost such that it stays within a safe range.
    I understand your general approach, just curious on the specifics. So you do have autotune adjustments utilizing CPS offset.

    I kinda bought into your linear statement pertaining to procede and the 2 maps. It doesn't have to be linear of course. I don't know the details, but basically a predetermined tune based on E% and desired aggression.

    For fueling all we have to do is increase (or enable) the rate at which LTFT are adjusted under load (should be in the bin). I've thought about experimenting by either increasing boost or E% in increments to observe changing LTFT. I have a thought most fueling issues (maxed trims) happen with drastic boost and/or E% changes but if increased gradually there wouldn't be an issue.

  5. #30
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I wish I had a button that let me virtually punch you in the balls.
    Click here to enlarge

  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu
    In the case of the n55 it is just a boost controller. It has no fuel mixture control and no timing control. It just lifts the boost and then tries to keep the other sensor signals within the DME normal expectations to avoid codes.

    Add ethanol to a stock car and similar results (but less boost so no real benefit). Add too much and you trigger codes as fuel trims go out of range.

    The N55 does not make life as easy as the n54.
    Any comment on the claim that the N55 JB4 is just a boost controller?
    I'm a complete noob so genuinely curious not trying to start $#@!.

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nugs Click here to enlarge
    Any comment on the claim that the N55 JB4 is just a boost controller?
    I'm a complete noob so genuinely curious not trying to start $#@!.
    Create a thread in the N55 section if you truly want to explore it.

  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Nugs Click here to enlarge
    Any comment on the claim that the N55 JB4 is just a boost controller?
    I'm a complete noob so genuinely curious not trying to start $#@!.
    More nonsense. I doubt Adrian knows how our N55 tuning works. He may not know we offer autotuning maps based on historic knock activity, isolated boost control, fuel pressure and o2 sensor biasing, etc. Oh and our N55 tuning actually works. Be sure to read up on the e90post N55 section for what Vishnu customers really think of Vishnu's N55 stuff. It's not pretty. Click here to enlarge The only feature the JB4 N55 does not have active currently is CPS but it's based on a G5 board and does support CPS. I actually have it on our shop car for advancing timing above factory levels when running E85 + meth. The power gains have been limited though so we've not yet rolled it out to customers. Part of that is due to my personal dislike of CPS in general as outlined in this thread.

    PS. Also be sure to remind him there are 5x more JB4 N55s out on the road than procedes with excellent customer feedback and reliability. Not to mention the JB4 owns all the N55 dyno & track records.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 08-18-2013 at 11:03 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  9. #34
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    Thanks for the infoClick here to enlarge

  10. #35
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    Terry,

    Can you explain to me in basic terms so as to not give away any of your IP how your N55 tune adjusts anything other than boost. Just tell me the sensors you manipulate in order to do it. I was not aware you did O2 sensor biasing on N55. Is this true as you state above? I had a quick look on your site, and I can only see 2 MAP sensors, MAF sensor and Boost in your stage 2 harness. Cannot see anything to bias O2 sensors. I can't see anything to adjust fuel pressure or CPS (as you state). Can you adjust fuel mixtures without access to O2 sensors? You don't try to do anything with timing. What else is there you can adjust other than boost?

    BTW - Where do you get Procede sales information from, or is 5X just a guess?

    I can't guarantee I will be back to continue this discussion on this forum as I am limited in ability to do that. Since you are also limited on the forum I can talk on, I guess we probably can't have a discussion about it.

  11. #36
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    I can't guarantee I will be back to continue this discussion on this forum as I am limited in ability to do that. Since you are also limited on the forum I can talk on, I guess we probably can't have a discussion about it.
    I don't know why you bring this up every time you post as if something is going to now suddenly change or as if you are being targeted. Every guest vendor has the same limitation, everyone. You have no problem using your allowed post to discount a competitor but how often do you use it constructively?

    Additionally, if you wish to post freely from an account that has a business name in it you know what to do. You don't want to sponsor? Ok fine no big deal I don't even want you to however I'm not stopping you from it. Don't complain about the same thing over and over and over after it has been explained to you a million times. I feel like I should change your name to adrianna@vishnu as I thought only women did this.

  12. #37
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    Well all I know about the N55 JB4 is that for E85 support you have to add a "flexfuel" wire which is just a wire to bias the fuel pressure reading IIRC. Maybe I'm wrong, I dunno since all I have is a N54.

    What would make the N55 so much more difficult to add biasing for? Do they encrypt the O2 sensor output at the source or something? Piggyback customers all the sudden afraid to get their hands dirty in wiring harnesses? Sine waves switch to square? Click here to enlarge

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu Click here to enlarge
    Terry,

    Can you explain to me in basic terms so as to not give away any of your IP how your N55 tune adjusts anything other than boost. Just tell me the sensors you manipulate in order to do it. I was not aware you did O2 sensor biasing on N55. Is this true as you state above? I had a quick look on your site, and I can only see 2 MAP sensors, MAF sensor and Boost in your stage 2 harness. Cannot see anything to bias O2 sensors. I can't see anything to adjust fuel pressure or CPS (as you state). Can you adjust fuel mixtures without access to O2 sensors? You don't try to do anything with timing. What else is there you can adjust other than boost?

    BTW - Where do you get Procede sales information from, or is 5X just a guess?

    I can't guarantee I will be back to continue this discussion on this forum as I am limited in ability to do that. Since you are also limited on the forum I can talk on, I guess we probably can't have a discussion about it.
    Hi Adrian,

    You may have noticed the same stock photo is posted on the site for all of the "engine bay harness" variant tunes. Depending on which model you ultimately order different connectors come installed for that specific application. For N55 models for example if using E85 fuels you are required to add the fuel pressure bias for $25. It's shown on our upgrades page. The o2 biasing connector currently goes on the 320/520 models & is added on for N55 larger turbo tuning. It's also shown on the same page. Of course the JB4 model has can wires, power, and ground, as well. If equipped with a methanol kit there are wires for methanol flow reading and pump/solenoid control.

    The N55 CPS wires which are currently only in use on our shop car also connect to the JB4 box. I don't have the car in my home garage but can take a photo shortly if you really believe that they don't exist. This is a photo of our N18 MINI Cooper harness showing the same connector. As stated above I've never considered CPS "adjusting timing" and we've not had any N55 timing issues using the long and short term trims as we do with the N54. In fact, since the N55 turbo is so small, we've found it's even less sensitive to timing drops than the N54 on lower grade fuels. I was hoping to find a big power gain by advancing CPS over factory but so far at least with 2 degrees (the most I can do so far) the results have not been notable. On the N54 we now use flash tuning to run higher than factory advance points where appropriate. This same technique may be used for the N55 as well. In fact it's only a matter of time before the JB4 can flash the DME directly and I presume you will follow suit with the procede. Assuming Shiv is willing to pay for the work. Times are changing for the BMW community...

    Regarding sales figures I do receive some reports from vendors who carry both products. At least I used to before they dropped your products. As well as monitoring forum traffic and interest. I'm quite confident in the claim that we have 5x more N55 tunes out in use than you do and I'd be happy to prove that by matching up circuit board and harness manufacturing numbers which can be scrutinized by a 3rd party if you'd be willing to do the same. Not that selling more implies our product is better. Although it is. But it at least shows it's widely in use and many of these "warnings" you take it upon yourself to issue on our products are unwarranted.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 08-19-2013 at 12:48 AM.
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Ethanol sensors are circa 2000's. This is 2013. Get with the program guis.
    Yeah, Koenigsegg is really behind on the times.


    Seriously, though, why are they using the "old" method if doing so is not being "with the program"? This isn't a rhetorical question. I really don't know.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ferruccio Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, Koenigsegg is really behind on the times.


    Seriously, though, why are they using the "old" method if doing so is not being "with the program"? This isn't a rhetorical question. I really don't know.
    I have no idea, but it's not uncommon for an OEM to make a product that is very technically advanced, but uses some less than modern features. Take the new F30 3'er for example. Why is it offered with filament based lights at all when the E9x had LED tails and why are non-Xenon headlights even an option on a BMW made in this decade?

  16. #41
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dsjr2006 Click here to enlarge
    I have no idea, but it's not uncommon for an OEM to make a product that is very technically advanced, but uses some less than modern features. Take the new F30 3'er for example. Why is it offered with filament based lights at all when the E9x had LED tails and why are non-Xenon headlights even an option on a BMW made in this decade?
    That's definitely true. I guess I would be more likely to see budget products like that on a 3 series than I would on a Koenigsegg, especially if the fuel sensor is so fundamental to the engine's performance.

  17. #42
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    If you're spending that much money on a hypercar then you might as well have the sensor. I mean, it's not a bad idea to have an ethanol content sensor, don't get me wrong. In fact, it's somewhat useful, and gives you interesting information. I'm just throwing it out there that ethanol sensors, while nice... are not required for flex fuel, or proper flex fuel tunes. Saying it's dangerous not to have one is false, saying it's required is false, saying it's better to have one is (practically) false. It all depends on your tune and how you want to do it, and I'm not just speaking of 335i's.

    I would also like to know how you know that the Koenigsegg does in fact have an ethanol sensor. Many articles say all flexfuel cars have these sensors, when in fact many do not. I know many Ford's did away with them around 2007. The Koenigsegg will also make way more power on 95 octane and 100 octane racing fuel, it's not using an ethanol sensor to determine the octane rating of the gas in the tank. Just saying.

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    If you're spending that much money on a hypercar then you might as well have the sensor. I mean, it's not a bad idea to have an ethanol content sensor, don't get me wrong. In fact, it's somewhat useful, and gives you interesting information. I'm just throwing it out there that ethanol sensors, while nice... are not required for flex fuel, or proper flex fuel tunes. Saying it's dangerous not to have one is false, saying it's required is false, saying it's better to have one is (practically) false. It all depends on your tune and how you want to do it, and I'm not just speaking of 335i's.

    I would also like to know how you know that the Koenigsegg does in fact have an ethanol sensor. Many articles say all flexfuel cars have these sensors, when in fact many do not. I know many Ford's did away with them around 2007. The Koenigsegg will also make way more power on 95 octane and 100 octane racing fuel, it's not using an ethanol sensor to determine the octane rating of the gas in the tank. Just saying.
    well, there's videos of the koennigsegg engineers + Christian Koenigsegg himself saying it used flex fuel sensors.

    how could it possibly make more power on 95 or 100 race gas when EVERYWHERE else shows that Ethanol fuels can make more power fairly easily if the capacity is there?
    boop

  19. #44
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    I mean it makes more power on 95 and 100 progressively versus 91 or 93. Of course it makes the most power on e100, but it self tunes for other octane ratings I suspect the same way our car does. A car company can choose many ways to build a car. Just because one engineer thinks it's the best way, doesn't make it law. Take the LS7 for example and compare it to other engines DOHC etc, even with lower specific output per liter it can still produce great power and get excellent fuel economy. Not saying it's better, but there are many solutions available, and calling one "best"depends on goals and circumstances. I personally don't see the cost/performance benefit in an ethanol sensor. But others disagree, and that's ok.
    Last edited by V8Bait; 08-20-2013 at 01:59 AM.

  20. #45
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    I'm prettty sure (can't guarantee this one) that cars like the koenigsegg would be PROPERLY tuned for flex fuel use?


    the cost of an ethanol sensor is a couple $hundred, and let you fill up willy nilly and always be at or near max possible power... sounds useful to me

    especially when lower quality fuel station 'e85' can vary down to E70 (or possibly lower)... which could be tragic.
    boop

  21. #46
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    A flex fuel sensor is a handy piece of information to have. A better way to phrase the discussion: Is it worth $400+ and the risk of fuel line leaks? I personally don't think so. At least not for the N54 or N55...
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    My boy is running the F30 JB4 N55 tune on 50/50 E85/93, Intake and DP and he's almost into the 11's (12.01@114.5 mph). This is definitely not vaporware and runs awesome. AWD with consistent 1.7 60's..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by NJrep335i Click here to enlarge
    My boy is running the F30 JB4 N55 tune on 50/50 E85/93, Intake and DP and he's almost into the 11's (12.01@114.5 mph). This is definitely not vaporware and runs awesome. AWD with consistent 1.7 60's..
    The F30 is a seriously fun chassis. Mine runs around 115mph also w/ the JB4, E85, and downpipe. But it feels like a mid 11 second car. The new trans just shifts so nicely. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    *necropost*

    So, because of the steadily evaporating existence of anything Vishnu as far as I can tell, and living in COBB HQ, I've been thinking about switching from the Flex Fuel to a COBB AP. The only thing is: I really like being able to wildly vary the E85 content depending on what is available, and having the tune adjust for that. I do not think a COBB actually does this. I know they have E30 maps, but I guess you'd have to flash your car each time you change the ethanol content?

    Also, as hard to find as the Vishnu guys are, the power gains are certainly substantial. I mean, I was getting a 140awhp gain on just the kit and some intakes. Since then, I've become FBO. I guess I am looking for a bit more of an elegant option that has a more established market and more active customer support. I think I would be losing quite a bit of whp though. Feel free to correct me! I really do not know as I simply have not had the time to delve too deeply into this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ferruccio Click here to enlarge
    *necropost*

    So, because of the steadily evaporating existence of anything Vishnu as far as I can tell, and living in COBB HQ, I've been thinking about switching from the Flex Fuel to a COBB AP. The only thing is: I really like being able to wildly vary the E85 content depending on what is available, and having the tune adjust for that. I do not think a COBB actually does this. I know they have E30 maps, but I guess you'd have to flash your car each time you change the ethanol content?

    Also, as hard to find as the Vishnu guys are, the power gains are certainly substantial. I mean, I was getting a 140awhp gain on just the kit and some intakes. Since then, I've become FBO. I guess I am looking for a bit more of an elegant option that has a more established market and more active customer support. I think I would be losing quite a bit of whp though. Feel free to correct me! I really do not know as I simply have not had the time to delve too deeply into this.
    You can just talk to Cobb @Josh@Cobb

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