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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Roy Cormier Click here to enlarge
    I think I'm going to try generate some fake O2 signals for the front and rear sensors, and run that into this MSD80. If I can get it to think its' attached to a running motor I could probably learn a lot about how it reacts to various conditions. Maybe that'll trigger some ideas on how to get around this.
    There are three basic approaches I want to explore.

    The first is to force the DME in to running both banks off the same sensor. Certain diagnostic faults may trigger this behavior or we may be able to identify the bytes that correspond to single or dual bank in the BIN and just change those to make it operate like a single bank system.

    The second possible approach is to design a piece of hardware to read one primary sensor signal and pass back two identical signals to the DME. If the signals always match perfectly it may never create a bank to bank variance.

    The third possible approach is to mount two sensors in one pipe but to continuously send a reset lambda adaptions command preventing it from learning one bank dramatically different than the other.
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  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    what if a small diameter pipe is used for each O2 sensor and it passes way downstream into the downpipe. It would give the exhaust energy enough time to cool. It would be bypassing the turbo, so a little spoolup would be lost; or just piping it back into the collector instead. Just thinking out loud.
    that's pretty much what alex suggested, and sounds easy enough to me?

    or even routing it back into the external wastegate dump or something?... just as easy to put it back in the collector though?
    boop

  3. #53
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    Tony, do you think some 1" tubing looped back with perhaps some heat fins would cause too much issue? as in thermal expansion or something of that sort?

    I think you could modify your manifold eleventeen as a guinea pig Click here to enlarge


    I have a mandrel bender with 1, 1 1/2 and 1 3/4 dies.

    I have some HREW 1" .080 tubing here at the shop..... do i need to make a bend and mail it to someone to hack up?
    Last edited by alex@ABRhouston; 08-15-2013 at 12:05 AM.
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    There are three basic approaches I want to explore.

    The first is to force the DME in to running both banks off the same sensor. Certain diagnostic faults may trigger this behavior or we may be able to identify the bytes that correspond to single or dual bank in the BIN and just change those to make it operate like a single bank system.

    The second possible approach is to design a piece of hardware to read one primary sensor signal and pass back two identical signals to the DME. If the signals always match perfectly it may never create a bank to bank variance.

    The third possible approach is to mount two sensors in one pipe but to continuously send a reset lambda adaptions command preventing it from learning one bank dramatically different than the other.
    the second option is what i was thinking would work. i just dont know if you could simply split the wires and just y it out or you would have to have some kind of box which reads the first o2 and duplicates the signal


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    Tony, do you think some 1" tubing looped back with perhaps some heat fins would cause too much issue? as in thermal expansion or something of that sort?

    I think you could modify your manifold eleventeen as a guinea pig Click here to enlarge


    I have a mandrel bender with 1, 1 1/2 and 1 3/4 dies.

    I have some HREW 1" .080 tubing here at the shop..... do i need to make a bend and mail it to someone to hack up?
    this is still on the hardware side and keeps us using the divded manifolds which keeps us from using standard manifolds like cast and etc..
    Turbo lag is the on ramp to the highway which is power.

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WDBi Click here to enlarge
    the second option is what i was thinking would work. i just dont know if you could simply split the wires and just y it out or you would have to have some kind of box which reads the first o2 and duplicates the signal




    this is still on the hardware side and keeps us using the divded manifolds which keeps us from using standard manifolds like cast and etc..
    you can't cast a divided manifold?

    not even for the whole way, JUST at the start, enough to get the O2 sensors to read properly...?.. i mean INCHES.
    boop

  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    you can't cast a divided manifold?

    not even for the whole way, JUST at the start, enough to get the O2 sensors to read properly...?.. i mean INCHES.
    You can cast a divided manifold:

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge
    http://www.designengineering.com/cat...l-length-vw-8v

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge


    http://www.hpamotorsport.com/exhaustmani.htm

    "The divided chambers within the exhaust manifold are a critical part of our design, maintaining the integrity of the independent Oxygen Sensor readings (One O2 sensor manages two hot rear cylinders and one cool front cylinder, while the other O2 sensor manages two cool front cylinders and one hot rear cylinder). These cylinder separations allow the Oxygen Sensors to deliver the correct fuel trim offsets to the ECU."

  7. #57
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    Attachment 32310
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  8. #58
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    Anyone know how much a single one off cast manifold costs? Or how to start the ball rolling?

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    Maybe contact hpa? Good find!

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    It looks like when people turbo those 3.2L vr6 motors they are putting the the o2 sensors pre-turbo right in the exhaust manifold as well, HPA calls them "external oxygen sensors." I wonder if they are doing anything different that we haven't talked about yet.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    The O2's are not designed to run pre-turbo. There in lies the problem.
    I understand they are supposed to be run after the turbo in the downpipe right? How much does the AFR or heat change after blowing past a turbine vs. right before the turbine? I guess I must be missing something.

  12. #62
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    that's pretty much what alex suggested, and sounds easy enough to me?

    or even routing it back into the external wastegate dump or something?... just as easy to put it back in the collector though?
    Ah, yeah I was on my phone, didn't see that. It was something I thought of during lunch. I think so long as the exhaust is cooled that we can keep the O2 sensors from failing.

    Aside from these hardware hacks, Terry seems to be onto some signaling/software possibilities. I like those much better.

  13. #63
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    Ok so I did some reading online and it sounds like the heat is the main issue, backpressure being the second with having the 02 preturbo.

    Could we use something like this: http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideba...controller-60/ It's made to deal with the back pressure and heat and uses a Bosch o2 sensor.

    Or install o2 sensor heat shields/sinks?
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    Click here to enlarge

    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...C-1_Manual.pdf <-- they specifically tell you in their manual how to make a heat shield if you are going to subject their o2 sensor to high heat.


    Just trying to come up with ideas/solutions...

  14. #64
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    I think we are on the right track with a cast manifold if you want to go the cheap route and HPA is the same design we should use. Very interesting. I wonder how much it would cost to get a custom cast manifold. I am sure I can throw together something in CAD biased on HPA's design.

  15. #65
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    investment cast molding is very expensive to get going.

    example: I was going to do a replacement plastic assembly for all the E70/E71 cars with the STUPID plastic garbage that holds the hood seal/microfilter housing/brake master cavities...... they fall apart just looking at them, for that european pedestrian whack-a-mole law they have over there.


    material for the parts were only going to be about 15 bucks for the plastic.
    the castings/molds were going to be about 50,000 dollars :barf:
    so- needless to say, E70 and E71 owners are gonna have to live with their crappy plastics near the windshield- i aint dropping that kinda dough on it.
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  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    investment cast molding is very expensive to get going.

    example: I was going to do a replacement plastic assembly for all the E70/E71 cars with the STUPID plastic garbage that holds the hood seal/microfilter housing/brake master cavities...... they fall apart just looking at them, for that european pedestrian whack-a-mole law they have over there.


    material for the parts were only going to be about 15 bucks for the plastic.
    the castings/molds were going to be about 50,000 dollars :barf:
    so- needless to say, E70 and E71 owners are gonna have to live with their crappy plastics near the windshield- i aint dropping that kinda dough on it.
    Wow..

  17. #67
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    investment cast molding is very expensive to get going.

    example: I was going to do a replacement plastic assembly for all the E70/E71 cars with the STUPID plastic garbage that holds the hood seal/microfilter housing/brake master cavities...... they fall apart just looking at them, for that european pedestrian whack-a-mole law they have over there.


    material for the parts were only going to be about 15 bucks for the plastic.
    the castings/molds were going to be about 50,000 dollars :barf:
    so- needless to say, E70 and E71 owners are gonna have to live with their crappy plastics near the windshield- i aint dropping that kinda dough on it.

    So would you estimate 50k or a cast mani for us? Using the treadstone cast supra manifold for example: They sell for $370 So they have to sell 270 manifolds just to cover the R&D cost(assuming a 50% mark up which is probably way too high. Most manufacturers make around 30%) than sell another 50 or so to cover the cost of the materials and shipping for the 1st 270 and the second 50 for a total of 325 lets say. So only after selling 325 cast manifolds for $120,000 do you make your money back and break even?

    I know the math is somewhat fuzzy but that kind of sucks. Granted you could probably sell the manifolds for $1500 if you were the only person in the game and if the whole kit would be under 5-6k.

    Obviously in theory you would make more money because people are going to pick up the turbo from you, downpipe, lines, piping, intercooler, etc. and you make a 5-10% mark up on each of those, etc. etc.

    Either way you need to move a volume of them. I am surprised it is so expensive. I would have thought a Chinese company would make a 1 off mold for under 20k.

  18. #68
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    then you look into.... well...... Chinese garbage.
    you wait forEVER.
    you have to put out LARGE sums of money and get it broker'ed and customs and all that other garbage.
    quality control
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  19. #69
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    I was really hoping that Steed Speed would come to our rescue (not cast but CNC'd log style), but they apparently abandoned the idea.

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    then you look into.... well...... Chinese garbage.
    you wait forEVER.
    you have to put out LARGE sums of money and get it broker'ed and customs and all that other garbage.
    quality control
    quality control

    I am not going to disagree with you or your points. I also have 0 desire to sell car parts.

    Whoever makes a US made product you know someone is just going to buy one, send it over and say make a copy. Unfortunately it happens all the time.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SCGT Click here to enlarge
    The Subaru's use a narrowband o2, different usefulness compared to a wideband a/f sensor. Not sure as to the difference between the two types with respect to longevity in that high pressure/temp environment.
    The pre-turbo O2 is a wideband on any turbo Subaru. They're about $160 from the dealer, 5-wire Bosch wideband sensors. The two post-cat sensors (one after each cat) are narrowband sensors.

    If there is something special about it to make it work preturbo it might be possible to adapt them to the BMW. The transfer function might be slightly different, and almost certainly will require a special plug, but those are not intractable problems.

  22. #72
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I understand they are supposed to be run after the turbo in the downpipe right? How much does the AFR or heat change after blowing past a turbine vs. right before the turbine? I guess I must be missing something.
    AFR can't change, there's no combustion happening further

    heat? speed? someone would be able to calculate that i think?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    You can cast a divided manifold:

    "The divided chambers within the exhaust manifold are a critical part of our design, maintaining the integrity of the independent Oxygen Sensor readings (One O2 sensor manages two hot rear cylinders and one cool front cylinder, while the other O2 sensor manages two cool front cylinders and one hot rear cylinder). These cylinder separations allow the Oxygen Sensors to deliver the correct fuel trim offsets to the ECU."
    i thought so :/

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    now THAT one looks absolutely stunning.

    ok, so even if not a cast manifold, if we only need a couple of inches of division, then going to a single tube.. that still cuts down on complexity by . well literally half?

    it seems it's no more difficult either way to just go a semi-divided manifold, there's some PROBABLY simple solutions... so what's the problem with trying one?

    so even if the casting solution is WAY too expensive to be feasible (like said $50k)... a CHEAP single runner manifold that's divided for the first few inches purely for the O2 sensors? that's still too expensive for most peoples tastes?
    Last edited by Flinchy; 08-15-2013 at 06:25 PM.
    boop

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    Ah, yeah I was on my phone, didn't see that. It was something I thought of during lunch. I think so long as the exhaust is cooled that we can keep the O2 sensors from failing.

    Aside from these hardware hacks, Terry seems to be onto some signaling/software possibilities. I like those much better.
    as long as the software solution doesn't have any downsides.. the hardware solution, assuming one of the two options would actually work, at least 100% for sure keeps the DME happy?

    i like a hardware fix much better Click here to enlarge
    boop

  24. #74
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Freon Click here to enlarge
    The pre-turbo O2 is a wideband on any turbo Subaru. They're about $160 from the dealer, 5-wire Bosch wideband sensors. The two post-cat sensors (one after each cat) are narrowband sensors.

    If there is something special about it to make it work preturbo it might be possible to adapt them to the BMW. The transfer function might be slightly different, and almost certainly will require a special plug, but those are not intractable problems.
    I stand (sit) corrected.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    AFR can't change, there's no combustion happening further
    Combustion continues even after the cylinder is exhausted, more so the farther timing is pulled back.

    If i were you guys i would consider ceramic coating the o2 sensors (assuming thats possible) or build copper water jackets plumbed into the factory cooling system. That would be very simple to fabricate and should solve your overheating issue.

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