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  1. #26
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    You could do it like this as well:

    use the pre 02 sensors in the front of the turbo and let it run closed loop feedback.
    post o2's just need to be told "i'm happy" really.

    when under boost, the o2's are ignored and it just runs essentially like an alpha N setup.
    a VERY well made boost map will have very little issue hitting good targets in this fashion.
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    The DME is expecting some fluctuation in AFR based on firing order. Plus there’s a correlation between fronts and rears. Of course the reduced cyls per WB, the better but this adds complication in hardware and potentially longevity issues with WBs placed pre-turbo.

    Hopefully the sensitivity can be reduced eliminating the need to code 1 bank and continue using 2 sensors. Potentially it cannot be fully disabled though since this could be same function for DME to determine issue in actual versus target (safety). I don't think the rears are much of an issue and just finding/turning off the trigger code is needed. @Roy Cormier is running without rears successfully after a brief hiccup.

  3. #28
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    You could do it like this as well:

    use the pre 02 sensors in the front of the turbo and let it run closed loop feedback.
    post o2's just need to be told "i'm happy" really.

    when under boost, the o2's are ignored and it just runs essentially like an alpha N setup.
    a VERY well made boost map will have very little issue hitting good targets in this fashion.
    Thats what everyone is doing right now, Forking over 350-400 bucks for 2 sensors every month or 2 is what is the real issue with that. They cannot live a long happy life pre-turbo. Just too much heat.
    Last edited by Tony@VargasTurboTech; 08-13-2013 at 03:57 PM.

  4. #29
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    You could do it like this as well:

    use the pre 02 sensors in the front of the turbo and let it run closed loop feedback.
    post o2's just need to be told "i'm happy" really.

    when under boost, the o2's are ignored and it just runs essentially like an alpha N setup.
    a VERY well made boost map will have very little issue hitting good targets in this fashion.
    N54 is always in closed loop fuel mode, no ignoring the Wb's brother.
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  5. #30
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    I've been looking through some of the disassembled code to try to figure out a way to do this, but haven't made any progress yet. Just need to find time to dedicate to it.

    To disable the codes when rear sensors aren't present:
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  6. #31
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Thats what everyone is doing right now, Forking over 350-400 bucks for 2 sensors every month or 2 is what is the real issue with that. They cannot live a long happy life pre-turbo. Just too much heat.
    Is it really that often? Maybe some of the single turbo guys can chime it to see how many miles and months they are getting out of them.
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  7. #32
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    I think I've got something like 5000 to 7000 miles on the single-turbo setup now. I haven't replaced the sensors yet, but I've also been somewhat easy on the car so far and haven't done any WOT pulls past 4500RPM. I've got some large copper heat sinks on them which may or may not be helping at all.
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  8. #33
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Roy Cormier Click here to enlarge
    I think I've got something like 5000 to 7000 miles on the single-turbo setup now. I haven't replaced the sensors yet, but I've also been somewhat easy on the car so far and haven't done any WOT pulls past 4500RPM. I've got some large copper heat sinks on them which may or may not be helping at all.
    How much of a pain is it to change them out and what do they usually cost?

  9. #34
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    Bosch 17098 about $100 on amazon et al.

    What about a ceramic insulator instead of a heat sink? Pressure shouldn't affect accuracy or life that much, it's the temp that you need to keep down from my understanding.

    Hacking should bring the O2 sensor count down to 1, but that might be a little more difficult since the DME was built and coded for 2 bank closed-loop operation at all times. It's a little different for the earlier MSS54 DME that only runs narrow-band sensors. Later Z4 M Coupe/roadster ran a completely different DME that did have two widebands, and I don't think the hack has been done on those, yet.
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  10. #35
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    There may be workable options out there for pre-turbo, just not what we currently are using. Obviously it'll take some monkeying. High temp partial pressure O2 sensors exist. I'm currently working for Honeywell, I can probably get some sweet data.

    http://sensing.honeywell.com/products/oxygen_sensors?Ne=2308&N=3476

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    I'm interested to see how @Eleventeen 's setup works out as he's got the O2 sensors mounted pre turbo but still seperated from direct heat, similar to O2 sensor foolers on some cars.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sered Click here to enlarge
    I'm interested to see how @Eleventeen 's setup works out as he's got the O2 sensors mounted pre turbo but still seperated from direct heat, similar to O2 sensor foolers on some cars.
    After my experience with my first manifold that I ran for about 3-4 months, I found that radiant heat is a huge factor. The rear sensor burned out 4 times, wile the front sensor had no issues (even with 80k miles). This is why I redesigned it to move both sensors toward the front of the engine, and moved them out several inches from the manifold. For the record, I have not been taking it easy on my car. I redline it constantly, with full throttle shifts (6AT), and have several 150+ pulls on it. I raced a sport bike to 160, raced a modded Evo IX just last night, and I'm undefeated so far Click here to enlarge I will continue to hammer it and let you know as soon one cooks on this new manifold...

  13. #38
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    After my experience with my first manifold that I ran for about 3-4 months, I found that radiant heat is a huge factor. The rear sensor burned out 4 times, wile the front sensor had no issues (even with 80k miles). This is why I redesigned it to move both sensors toward the front of the engine, and moved them out several inches from the manifold. For the record, I have not been taking it easy on my car. I redline it constantly, with full throttle shifts (6AT), and have several 150+ pulls on it. I raced a sport bike to 160, raced a modded Evo IX just last night, and I'm undefeated so far Click here to enlarge I will continue to hammer it and let you know as soon one cooks on this new manifold...
    vids or it didnt happen Click here to enlarge
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  14. #39
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    After my experience with my first manifold that I ran for about 3-4 months, I found that radiant heat is a huge factor. The rear sensor burned out 4 times, wile the front sensor had no issues (even with 80k miles). This is why I redesigned it to move both sensors toward the front of the engine, and moved them out several inches from the manifold. For the record, I have not been taking it easy on my car. I redline it constantly, with full throttle shifts (6AT), and have several 150+ pulls on it. I raced a sport bike to 160, raced a modded Evo IX just last night, and I'm undefeated so far Click here to enlarge I will continue to hammer it and let you know as soon one cooks on this new manifold...
    By moving them out it is very similar to what an anti fouler does, am I wrong?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    By moving them out it is very similar to what an anti fouler does, am I wrong?
    Yes. The anti-fouler typically helps in two ways (but there are different types). First, they move the sensor out of the direct path of heat (only marginally) and second, the flow of hot gas is limited by making it pass through a small hole. The approach I took was to move the sensor several inches away from the primary tube, but design it in a way that still promotes plenty of flow through the sensor tube for fast response to mixture changes. Looking at my logs, you can see immediate changes in A/F ratio based on boost spikes, throttle position, etc. so it seems to be effective.

    EDIT: I'd still rather have a proper programming solution to move the sensors post turbo, though.

  16. #41
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    please excuse my retarded MSpaint skills, im busy- had a brain fart and whipped it up real quick, but you get the idea Click here to enlarge



    take a piece and make a lip to feed SOME of the exhaust to the o2 sensor, and let it return back to the primary......


    it could extend (space permitting) further away than what that stupid drawing shows to help cool it? or something? If heat is killing it, i guess the easiest solution would be to get the heat out of it (enough) that it could survive

    think it will (still) be too hot?

    I know the one I saw on your manifold was just a long piece with the o2 at the end, right? I could see that not allowing decent accuracy, since the exhaust (IMO) would just "stack up" in that tube and not refresh well......

    If im off base, let me know Click here to enlarge
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  17. #42
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    I know the one I saw on your manifold was just a long piece with the o2 at the end, right? I could see that not allowing decent accuracy, since the exhaust (IMO) would just "stack up" in that tube and not refresh well......

    If im off base, let me know Click here to enlarge
    Eleventeens setup was great in my mind, venturi effect should "scavenge" the exhaust to keep it moving and prevent buildup.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    Yes. The anti-fouler typically helps in two ways (but there are different types). First, they move the sensor out of the direct path of heat (only marginally) and second, the flow of hot gas is limited by making it pass through a small hole. The approach I took was to move the sensor several inches away from the primary tube, but design it in a way that still promotes plenty of flow through the sensor tube for fast response to mixture changes. Looking at my logs, you can see immediate changes in A/F ratio based on boost spikes, throttle position, etc. so it seems to be effective.

    EDIT: I'd still rather have a proper programming solution to move the sensors post turbo, though.
    Pictures of your new manifold?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by CannonFodder Click here to enlarge
    Pictures of your new manifold?
    Here you go. There are also some pics of my O2 sensor tubes.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...p-mount/page10

  20. #45
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    I think I'm going to try generate some fake O2 signals for the front and rear sensors, and run that into this MSD80. If I can get it to think its' attached to a running motor I could probably learn a lot about how it reacts to various conditions. Maybe that'll trigger some ideas on how to get around this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This post is pretty confusing. First off I am not sure you have been keeping up with what is going on in the N54 world. But to catch you up, yes there are people running singles with the banks separated (single and twin scroll) and running o2's pre-turbo, they are killing them VERY quickly. O2's are never meant to run pre-turbo that are not designed for that kind of heat. Also what you are saying about the stock turbos is also semi confusing, the O2's are of course run post turbo so the heat they are seeing is much lower then what pre-turbo O2's would see. The entire point of this thread is to try to figure out how to run a single and get the O2's back post turbo to keep from killing them, while the DME can control them as the car was only supposed to have one bank.
    Nevermind, complete brainfart on the primary O2 location. I was thinking they were pre-turbo when I posted, and I know better.

    Has no one just tried the copper heatsink trick?

    One other issue with preturbo is the pressure changes the reading. I think it was Innovate Motorsports that put out an article a few years ago on the affects of manifold pressure on the O2 reading. I think they tend to read richer than reality when in a very high pressure environment.

    Of note, Subaru uses pre-turbo O2 from the factory. They still seem to last 60k on tuned cars and still 45k on bigger turbo cars at least running standard pump gas. They include a very small heatsink.

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    as much as i want a cheap post-O2 only solution, as obviously it's needed, not everyone wants to go crazy..

    all that's REALLY doing is taking away another part of the N54 that makes it a good platform with good potential.

    i'd much much rather a solution like eleventeen's, if not a high-heat tolerant O2 sensor..

    Or like Alex posted, either way, that would allow you to keep the full factory function setup

    the best way vs the cheapest way. always a market for both.


    heck... why not both? what's stopping you from going an equal-er log style (so sorta a cross between log and long tubes).. with one of those two possible solutions?

    the DME obviously is MUCH happier with both O2's, and it will be a better solution for it without a doubt

    so instead of trying to engineer it out, which is 1 step forwards half a step back.... why not try and engineer it to get it to work in a cheapER way, as well as the expensive ways??
    Last edited by Flinchy; 08-14-2013 at 06:20 PM.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Freon Click here to enlarge
    Of note, Subaru uses pre-turbo O2 from the factory. They still seem to last 60k on tuned cars and still 45k on bigger turbo cars at least running standard pump gas. They include a very small heatsink.
    The Subaru's use a narrowband o2, different usefulness compared to a wideband a/f sensor. Not sure as to the difference between the two types with respect to longevity in that high pressure/temp environment.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    please excuse my retarded MSpaint skills, im busy- had a brain fart and whipped it up real quick, but you get the idea Click here to enlarge



    take a piece and make a lip to feed SOME of the exhaust to the o2 sensor, and let it return back to the primary......


    it could extend (space permitting) further away than what that stupid drawing shows to help cool it? or something? If heat is killing it, i guess the easiest solution would be to get the heat out of it (enough) that it could survive

    think it will (still) be too hot?

    I know the one I saw on your manifold was just a long piece with the o2 at the end, right? I could see that not allowing decent accuracy, since the exhaust (IMO) would just "stack up" in that tube and not refresh well......

    If im off base, let me know Click here to enlarge
    i like this, as well as eleventeens setup

    it's not complex (either of them) and they're a potentially adequate (heck, perfect) solution

    if you have a small enough diameter tube that the flow would have JUST enough time to cool down, by being restricted in itself (remembering, the DME only wants the readings in the amount of time you get it with the stock turbos choking flow)... wouldn't effect primary flow, would keep the O2 sensors alive... would give accurate enough readings.

    it doesn't EXPECT full speed full heat flow, that's obvious isn't it?

    cheap solution (Y)...
    cheap solution that reduces functionality in any way (N)

    it's not like the exhaust is COLD post turbo, it's just a BIT colder, and slower.

    way to test it would be to make up a manifold and put a temperature probe in the extra runner offshoot thing and modify until the temperature was an acceptable level? pretty quick trial and error i'd guess?

    though i guess this has to survive slightlty more elevated high-rpm EGT's from high power single setups, so getting it down to as cold as possible would be the goal.. which may be a tad harder i guess haha


    while that may not be a dirt cheap dirty log setup... it's cheap-ER?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    That is how the current ST kit does it unless I am mistaken. A big snake of tubing. Expensive to fab even with a jig I imagine.

    The reason for the discussion is so we can use an inexpensive cast log style manifold and have single turbo set ups for under 4k like the supra guys have. Throw on a QSV and call it a day. Least that is my understanding.

    The N55 only has one set of 02s unless I am mistaken. How different is the intake manifold? I can't find any pictures online...Obviously one would prefer as much information and one o2 per cyl.

    I agree ProEFI is too expensive(to me) and currently isn't even working and you can't buy it for this platform.


    What about a cast style twin scroll manifold with the o2s as they should be? like this:

    Attachment 32282
    ^ with a tube or runner coming off it

    would have plenty of length to do the long loopy tube one if it were for a top mount (which is what i'd prefer at least lol)

    any either way, eleventeens setup would work fine, even straight off where the two 'join', assuming, like he says, it really is a functional solution?
    Last edited by Flinchy; 08-14-2013 at 06:36 PM.
    boop

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    what if a small diameter pipe is used for each O2 sensor and it passes way downstream into the downpipe. It would give the exhaust energy enough time to cool. It would be bypassing the turbo, so a little spoolup would be lost; or just piping it back into the collector instead. Just thinking out loud.

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