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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
    The same way a 625 kit hits 606 whp on a dynojet out of the box Click here to enlarge
    FREAKING AMEN
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  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by WNF_335i Click here to enlarge
    the two suoercharged m3s you seen at bimmercruise are the same ones running in this video. my buddy with the gintani rstage two m3 put out 495 and 491 first two runs i think he said they were third gear pulls, his last pull on the dyno was a fourth gear pull and put out 603
    This is what I heard as well (people PM interesting stuff all the time) so hope people understand how dyno numbers can vary even same day.
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  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e92livin Click here to enlarge
    Dzenno, first off I am not ashamed of the numbers I put down considering the conditions and the numbers everyone else was hitting that day lol. secondly I cannot explain to you myself how I hit the 603whp it is weird for my car @ 7.5psi to hit that number to be honest. The way the car performs compared to these dyno #s are totally different. As of the third gear accusations it was a honest mistake on my end so ALL THE DYNOS PULLS WERE DONE IN 4TH GEAR. Just to clarify things, I want accurate results like any one else and it doesn't make a difference to me. This race I had with the ESS 650 car is a perfect example of dyno results vs real life results. I will be doing another dyno-pull shortly, partially because I want to see my WTQ numbers and I want to see what my car puts down consistently on 94 and 110. On a side note this is my first time on a dyno period and the spike wasn't something I was use to seeing so who knows what my car makes. Anyway i'll see everyone who is local at the next event.. I'm out.
    You don't need to play dyno number games or even explain yourself. Your car actually doing real world runs says everything that needs to be said.
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  4. #54
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    @e92livin where is the video of the other runs?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Brainwashed much? I can tell you about a few blown ESS motors too. EVERYONE has blown motors.

    The video you are referring to discusses shortcoming in the S65 V8 factory oil system. Rod bearings are a problem that is not Gintani's fault or ESS's fault or anyone's fault by BMW's.

    Regarding my exhaust video, it's a built motor car putting down more than what anyone else has having NOT been run to redline or in even in kill mode yet so I don't think you know what you're talking about. I always tell Alex to up the boost and shut everyone the hell up but he plays it too safe just because of crap like this.

    I told him to pop my stock motor before building it but it never happened, why is that?
    I was not referring to your car as I know your car is built, and you took the damn video of your car. I am referring to the blue e36 I believe it is in their shop. Nothing wrong with being aggressive, just saying that's what I found when shopping around for M3 performance before purchasing my car. I don't know why they didn't blow your stock motor, you tell us....woulda been cool to see a video of it being pushed to it's limits IMO.

    I also was not referencing the video they made to clearly point out the cylinder 5 issue with the motor.

    It does seem they have publicized this issue more than other companies, and for any confusion that may cause with them blowing motors, I apologize. Still nothing wrong with being aggressive though, no reason to take offense to that. And not sure why they won't push your car harder if you are asking them to. That doesn't make any sense.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I was not referring to your car as I know your car is built, and you took the damn video of your car. I am referring to the blue e36 I believe it is in their shop. Nothing wrong with being aggressive, just saying that's what I found when shopping around for M3 performance before purchasing my car. I don't know why they didn't blow your stock motor, you tell us....woulda been cool to see a video of it being pushed to it's limits IMO.

    I also was not referencing the video they made to clearly point out the cylinder 5 issue with the motor.

    It does seem they have publicized this issue more than other companies, and for any confusion that may cause with them blowing motors, I apologize. Still nothing wrong with being aggressive though, no reason to take offense to that. And not sure why they won't push your car harder if you are asking them to. That doesn't make any sense.
    Revs OMG OMG OMG revs. Seriously?

    There's always an issue with every ESS car that loses. Always.

    They take account they don't delete / hide. A shame they don't get publicized for all their achievements but hey, that's what money for advertising is for right?

    It makes complete sense why they won't push it as they don't know the limit so rather than push a customer car (mine) they would rather push their own for development. That way if something breaks the forums fanboys don't run wild it putting them down like they always do.
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    Just saying, I wasn't talking about your car, every M3 mention doesn't mean it's YOUR car being talked about....there are others out there ya know.

    I am reading more and more about Gintani, it does seem they are very good about taking care of their customers and making things right regardless of issue. (and no, since apparently this has to be written out for you) not talking about your car LOL

    And you mentioned nothing about them doing any testing to a "shop" car. You only said you wanted to see them push your car harder, so if your car is the only one built like you have said it is, then Gintani having a shop car with same build is news to me.

    chill out son, why are you being so defensive over nothing?

    And if they are doing testing on their own shop car before pushing your car harder, why do they even still have your car? Why don't you have it? I mean isn't the trans built and in, and everything done? I woulda thought after that debut or whatever at Bimmerfest that you would have been driving your baby home.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    @Sticky there are still on my go-pro ... on a side-note this run shown we agreed to roll up to a lamp post and then go from there which is why there is no honks. I will definitely have them up later today. Also in this race I am running the old gintani set-up since my kit is used but the tune, intake filter and pulley are all new.

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    re: specs on both cars - It doesn't seem like many M3 owners remove the primary cats on the S65 (i.e. test pipe) - this should gain more net horsepower than a X-pipe and rear section COMBINED, and it costs much less to do... Are there any reasons for this, or is it just not something that people like to do for reasons of volume/smell/etc.?

    I am moving to a test pipe very soon, and hope it's the right decision - but this concerns me.

    Nice kill by the Gintani M3.
    Last edited by inlineS54B32; 08-29-2013 at 03:40 PM. Reason: removed request for dyno#s

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    I don't know about you but I would never setup a race knowing my car was misfiring..

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I find these results a bit confusing given data presented if the cars are 100% as described. Yesterday we were at the Bimmercruise show up here in Canada and they had a mobile Dynojet setup. Among other cars a Gintani Stage 2 S65 went on and did 495whp STD on our 94 Sunoco octane, no meth. Then an ESS-625 car went on and same octane it did 525whp. My car on pump/meth did 505whp with the one-off set of stock hybrids that I have now. How does a Stg2 Gintani car just pull like that on an ess650 car unless something is either wrong with the ess car or does the driver of the ess car really really suck driving it?

    Outside of that, it was nice to see just how much more power under the curve the N54 had over both of the S65 setups. Would be nice to see a race against both S65 setups one day..
    If you are at 505 HP on the N54, and the other 2 S65 powered cars are at (as you say) 495 HP and 525 HP, how would the area under the curve of the N54 be higher than the S65?

    The S65 is revving out to 8400 RPM - that's a lot of area an N54 curve simply won't have, right? Are you saying it has more area at low RPMs - or across the board? I have a feeling it's across the board - so here's what I came up with. I know this is VERY unscientific, but it's better than taking a glance and saying one is obviously better than another.

    Only caring about 4k RPM and upwards (only range I think we would agree matters for racing) here:

    Here is a 500 HP dyno from an N54 (very impressive N54, not many can claim this graph) --> Click here to enlarge

    Here is a Gintani stage 2 graph - with numbers that are a bit better than what you claimed peak, but good enough for here (less than what the owner said his car makes, higher than what you claim) --> Click here to enlarge

    Now - for the N54 graph - each box represents 500 RPM (x-axis) * 250 ft-lbs (y-axis) - using OVER APPROXIMATION (e.g. if it's close, I round up) - I count 9.5 boxes of area. So the total area in torques = (500 * 250) * total number of boxes under curve past 4k but below redline = 125000 * 9.5 = 1,187,500 total torques.

    For the S65 graph - box represents 1000 RPM (x-axis) * 100 ft-lbs (y-axis) - again, from 4k RPM on up and OVER approximating if close. I count 14.75 boxes/area. The total area in torques = (1000 * 100) * number of boxes = 100,000 * 14.75 = 1,475,000 total torques.

    Now - the point of all that was to show that there is obviously some bias here. I don't think one would easily have said "oh, that graph obviously has more power under the curve" like was said. The S65 is an amazing engine - when boosted, it's extremely potent.

    This is ALL without even taking into effect the higher redline of the S65. With a 20% higher redline, you can have the same "length" gear (in terms of time spent in each gear) as the N54 gears - however, you can now multiply the torque anywhere on the curve by 20% by shortening the gear. So, you have 20% more torque TO THE WHEELS for every gear used in the car. This is why redline is important.

    Not to turn this into an N54 vs. M3 rant, but the area under the curve comment bothered me a bit. Click here to enlarge

    Cheers.

  12. #62
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    I have no dog in this fight at all but I can tell you from first hand experience as both cars are local to me. I was there at the dyno when both cars dynoed and mine was on in between as well. Although slower in a race, this ESS-650 did 525whp that day, three pulls in 4th, the Gintani Stage 2 car did 495whp three pulls in 4th that day. Graphs of the Gintani car have been posted too. So dyno numbers wise and given both cars are 6MT it'll be a drivers race here as they're very close with a slight edge on the power front going to the ESS car.

    Dynos are one thing, racing is a whole other world...just something to keep in mind while not defending any one tune out there. Driving a stick requires, and driving it well in a race, requires skill and knowing your car very very well (i.e. shift points, starting RPM, etc).

    My car put down 505whp that day on pump+meth with the one-off custom set of twins with a lot more torque than either of the S65s. If the owners of both cars are up for it we'll do some friendly pulls soon and have some fun...

    EDIT: Just noticed this wasn't a separate thread from the other one on this same subject..excuse anything i've mentioned twice..
    Click here to enlarge

  13. #63
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    If you are at 505 HP on the N54, and the other 2 S65 powered cars are at (as you say) 495 HP and 525 HP, how would the area under the curve of the N54 be higher than the S65?

    The S65 is revving out to 8400 RPM - that's a lot of area an N54 curve simply won't have, right? Are you saying it has more area at low RPMs - or across the board? I have a feeling it's across the board - so here's what I came up with. I know this is VERY unscientific, but it's better than taking a glance and saying one is obviously better than another.

    Only caring about 4k RPM and upwards (only range I think we would agree matters for racing) here:

    Here is a 500 HP dyno from an N54 (very impressive N54, not many can claim this graph) --> Click here to enlarge

    Here is a Gintani stage 2 graph - with numbers that are a bit better than what you claimed peak, but good enough for here (less than what the owner said his car makes, higher than what you claim) --> Click here to enlarge

    Now - for the N54 graph - each box represents 500 RPM (x-axis) * 250 ft-lbs (y-axis) - using OVER APPROXIMATION (e.g. if it's close, I round up) - I count 9.5 boxes of area. So the total area in torques = (500 * 250) * total number of boxes under curve past 4k but below redline = 125000 * 9.5 = 1,187,500 total torques.

    For the S65 graph - box represents 1000 RPM (x-axis) * 100 ft-lbs (y-axis) - again, from 4k RPM on up and OVER approximating if close. I count 14.75 boxes/area. The total area in torques = (1000 * 100) * number of boxes = 100,000 * 14.75 = 1,475,000 total torques.

    Now - the point of all that was to show that there is obviously some bias here. I don't think one would easily have said "oh, that graph obviously has more power under the curve" like was said. The S65 is an amazing engine - when boosted, it's extremely potent.

    This is ALL without even taking into effect the higher redline of the S65. With a 20% higher redline, you can have the same "length" gear (in terms of time spent in each gear) as the N54 gears - however, you can now multiply the torque anywhere on the curve by 20% by shortening the gear. So, you have 20% more torque TO THE WHEELS for every gear used in the car. This is why redline is important.

    Not to turn this into an N54 vs. M3 rant, but the area under the curve comment bothered me a bit. Click here to enlarge

    Cheers.
    Claiming numbers and bench racing which you're doing above is one thing; having graphs in hand, being there on the dyno with both cars and hopefully having some fun with the guys out there racing is another...stop calculating things, go out race some cars and have fun...

    EDIT: By the way, the N54 graph you posted is of a STOCK turbo N54. Get your data straight if you'll go calculating. No one was comparing a stock turbo N54. If you'd like to compare, compare this one:

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

  14. #64
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Just saying, I wasn't talking about your car, every M3 mention doesn't mean it's YOUR car being talked about....there are others out there ya know.

    I am reading more and more about Gintani, it does seem they are very good about taking care of their customers and making things right regardless of issue. (and no, since apparently this has to be written out for you) not talking about your car LOL

    And you mentioned nothing about them doing any testing to a "shop" car. You only said you wanted to see them push your car harder, so if your car is the only one built like you have said it is, then Gintani having a shop car with same build is news to me.

    chill out son, why are you being so defensive over nothing?

    And if they are doing testing on their own shop car before pushing your car harder, why do they even still have your car? Why don't you have it? I mean isn't the trans built and in, and everything done? I woulda thought after that debut or whatever at Bimmerfest that you would have been driving your baby home.
    Considering my car is a Gintani vehicle and you didn't specify it's perfectly fine from me to respond from the context of my ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH GINTANI.

    What issue? What are they making right? The only issue is people talking on forums without knowing what they are saying.

    I wanted them to push my car but they said they would never risk a customer car to see where the limits are.

    I'm just being normal, not sure what's odd here. I'm not taking any issue with you.

    Regarding why they still have my car is my car is a DCT not a 6-speed. If everything was done I would be driving it don't you think? Did you even read the Bimmerfest article? If you did you'd have your answer.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by e92livin Click here to enlarge
    @Sticky there are still on my go-pro ... on a side-note this run shown we agreed to roll up to a lamp post and then go from there which is why there is no honks. I will definitely have them up later today. Also in this race I am running the old gintani set-up since my kit is used but the tune, intake filter and pulley are all new.
    I understand your reasoning but for people who aren't aware of using a marker a honk eliminates that and also the variable of you both getting to the marker at the exact same time. Regardless, I get why there are no honks now.

    Glad to hear you have the new setup now, that makes it even more impressive. I'll specify that when you get the new video up please put all the runs in 1 vid. Feel free to throw in a BimmerBoost.com reference I always love those.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Andrew@activeautowerke Click here to enlarge
    I don't know about you but I would never setup a race knowing my car was misfiring..
    Yeppers...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I have no dog in this fight at all but I can tell you from first hand experience as both cars are local to me. I was there at the dyno when both cars dynoed and mine was on in between as well. Although slower in a race, this ESS-650 did 525whp that day, three pulls in 4th, the Gintani Stage 2 car did 495whp three pulls in 4th that day. Graphs of the Gintani car have been posted too. So dyno numbers wise and given both cars are 6MT it'll be a drivers race here as they're very close with a slight edge on the power front going to the ESS car.

    Dynos are one thing, racing is a whole other world...just something to keep in mind while not defending any one tune out there. Driving a stick requires, and driving it well in a race, requires skill and knowing your car very very well (i.e. shift points, starting RPM, etc).

    My car put down 505whp that day on pump+meth with the one-off custom set of twins with a lot more torque than either of the S65s. If the owners of both cars are up for it we'll do some friendly pulls soon and have some fun...

    EDIT: Just noticed this wasn't a separate thread from the other one on this same subject..excuse anything i've mentioned twice..
    Dyno this dyno that... race 'em bro. They'll blow you away. Run a DCT for an eye opening experience.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Dyno this dyno that... race 'em bro. They'll blow you away. Run a DCT for an eye opening experience.
    haha you make it sounds like someone's got something to prove, maybe you do!
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    haha you make it sounds like someone's got something to prove, maybe you do!
    I most certainly do but I'm in a slightly different league. Regardless, I'm well aware of how an SC M3 performs.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    I most certainly do but I'm in a slightly different league. Regardless, I'm well aware of how an SC M3 performs.
    The non-racing car-in-the-shop league? Let me know when you come out of that and actually can race anyone and we'll set something up! Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    The non-racing car-in-the-shop league? Let me know when you come out of that and actually can race anyone and we'll set something up! Click here to enlarge
    The best you have ever done is what at the track? Less than what my car did years ago? You should probably slow your roll until you exceed where I've already been.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    All the spark plug wire does is provide the RPM signal for the vehicle so you can track that on the dyno screem. It has zero to do with the DJ being able to read HP or TQ, if it can read HP it can read tq as they are both read from the same roller, just with different equations to get the numbers. Something smells a little fishy here.
    For a fixed-mass rotating/drum dyno, the dyno is measuring how fast the car can accelerated a fixed mass (drum). It derives it's outputs from the amount of "Work" - so you cannot determine the torque of an engine without knowing the RPM. I don't think that, without the RPM, the unit of torque means anything to someone measuring the output of an engine - so it wouldn't really make sense to output torque (if possible) without RPM.

    Here is an article from superflow (bolded parts explaining this):
    ---

    It is important to understand that engine rpm is unnecessary for power calculations on a
    SuperFlow chassis dynamometer. Therefore, if you only need some quick horsepower numbers,
    you do not need to obtain rpm because:

    On an engine dynamometer, engine rpm is a requirement to compute engine horsepower
    because of the formula shown here.
    EngineHorsepower = EngineTorque * EngineRPM/ 5252.113

    However, on a chassis dynamometer, the power at the point where the vehicle wheels contacts
    the dynamometer roll is derived from three separate measurements:

    • The inertia power is derived from the known inertia mass of the roll accelerating during the
    test with the rate of acceleration measured by the roll speed pickup.

    • Dyno losses are computed at the factory and embedded in the system configuration.

    • Roll power is derived from the dynamometer strain gauge torque multiplied by roll rpm
    divided by 5252.113.

    Thus, no part of the wheel power equation requires engine rpm. You can literally dyno all day
    without an engine speed input. SuperFlow even provides a default printout page (number 9)
    defined with roll speed on the X-axis for convenient plotting of power when engine speed is
    erratic or nonexistent.

    Of course, having engine speed is still important—particularly for graphing power numbers vs.
    rpm and for deriving the WhlTrq numbers resulting from the wheel power numbe
    r. Thus, you
    should have a good engine rpm reading even if it is not necessary for the power calculations.
    SuperFlow provides several methods for obtaining engine speed, and any of them will work.
    However, you may need to experiment with each method before deciding which one works best
    for the test vehicle.


    ----

    It's the opposite of what one would think when quickly thinking about it, however I have read a ton on this subject, so wanted to clarify that this is not BS.

  23. #73
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Claiming numbers and bench racing which you're doing above is one thing; having graphs in hand, being there on the dyno with both cars and hopefully having some fun with the guys out there racing is another...stop calculating things, go out race some cars and have fun...

    EDIT: By the way, the N54 graph you posted is of a STOCK turbo N54. Get your data straight if you'll go calculating. No one was comparing a stock turbo N54. If you'd like to compare, compare this one:

    http://www.germanboost.com/images/im...e2f1b1d9-1.jpg
    All I was trying to say was that you saying "how much better the N54 curve is than the blown S65s" was not accurate. You made a statement that I didn't think was true - took VERY SIMILAR cars to having the output of what you described, and showed it wasn't. That's all. I am not trying to say anything else - which car is faster, etc... I was just talking about area under the curve.

    My point stands - it's not a simple matter to just say one curve is superior to another without actually measuring this. Why no one does measure this is beyond me - it's all that matters.

    I understand what you are saying in regard to stop calculating/race/etc. - however, without numbers we would have nothing. Dynos would mean nothing, you wouldn't run them, talk about them, or use them. It's when numbers aren't in one's favor when they are suddenly unimportant. I track my car, used to be into karting (birrels) - nothing serious, so try to understand both sides of the coin.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The best you have ever done is what at the track? Less than what my car did years ago? You should probably slow your roll until you exceed where I've already been.
    We have stock turbo DCT cars running what you did years ago
    The heck are you comparing dct cars to a 6mt in a 1/4? I was at least trying to compare similar transmissions, relax
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    All I was trying to say was that you saying "how much better the N54 curve is than the blown S65s" was not accurate. You made a statement that I didn't think was true - took VERY SIMILAR cars to having the output of what you described, and showed it wasn't. That's all. I am not trying to say anything else - which car is faster, etc... I was just talking about area under the curve.

    My point stands - it's not a simple matter to just say one curve is superior to another without actually measuring this. Why no one does measure this is beyond me - it's all that matters.

    I understand what you are saying in regard to stop calculating/race/etc. - however, without numbers we would have nothing. Dynos would mean nothing, you wouldn't run them, talk about them, or use them. It's when numbers aren't in one's favor when they are suddenly unimportant. I track my car, used to be into karting (birrels) - nothing serious, so try to understand both sides of the coin.
    Ok fair enough. How does the graph i posted stack up? I'll go through your calcs this time Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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