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    Cool Custom single turbo - 18-18.5psi - external wastegate control, OEM solenoids, COBB flash only - shakedown runs

    Wanted to share what I think is another key milestone in N54 tuning. Yesterday we managed to use Cobb to control an external Tial wastegate entirely, without piggyback involvement and make some good numbers. Boost control had to be redone from the typical way its done for internally wastegated vacuum operated turbos such as OEMs and any stock frame hybrids.

    We stopped at these numbers as the HPFP pressure literally nosedived near redline to 600psi from 2000+psi targeted so we'll be looking at the usual fuel capacity boosters and a couple things that I haven't heard of being tried yet.

    This was at 18-18.5psi peak. Timing is around 8-10.5deg, our Petro Canada (Sunoco) pump 94 octane. No idea at the moment how much more power is left on our pump gas but I bet quite a bit more as this was literally just getting started LOL

    Exhaust manifold is very similar to FFTEC's with the runners going up and merging down the middle to a T4 flange. GTX35R 1.06AR turbine housing, Tial wastegate with a 10lb spring. Exhaust is a single 3.5" all the way back with the wastegate plumbed into the exhaust. This kit was a one off for a local car that has seen tons of 1/4 mile racing in the past and had one of the first RBs ever made. He drove the car on the street after, no issues, raced what looked like a 600 bike I think, stayed door to door...

    The size of the exhaust housing is obviously making this a top end beast vs. a DD street car but stepping down to a smaller exhaust housing is never rocket science or brain surgery Click here to enlarge

    We're SUPER happy having completed this with boost control that is so spot on. 10psi (to overcome the wg spring before any duty cycle is needed on top of it to reach higher boost) is reached at 4200rpm in 4th gear on a non-load bearing Dynojet.

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Huge thanks to @Eleventeen for experimenting with OEM boost solenoids and uncovering the hidden boost reference port on them!
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 08-11-2013 at 09:49 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Very nice!
    @BoostAddict @Ak335i

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    Awesome!!!

    Are you working with any new "isolated boost" logic via Cobb, or have you just learned to deal with the OEM logic well enough to pull this off??

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    Looks promising. But like I've said for any setup like that he's going to want gauges in dash, meth control, NLS, 2STEP, etc. I also forsee some partial throttle headaches using the DME alone. Not to mention he will need a 3.5 bar map sensor, boost limiting in 1st gear, etc. You'll already have 2-3 piggyback devices on the car anyway you should just throw a single JB4 in the mix so he has all the features he needs. Click here to enlarge

    PS. I worked up that inverted factory solenoid control and sent a video to Eleventeen one night to test it out as we were having problems getting the JB4 down to the 40hz his MAC solenoid needed. I also posted the directions here for everyone to use. Don't say I never did anything for flash only guys. Click here to enlarge It does work a lot better than I expected DME only at full throttle. Partial throttle may be a problem though.

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-boost-control

    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 08-11-2013 at 07:48 PM. Reason: reworded it a bit
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Dfv2 Click here to enlarge
    Awesome!!!

    Are you working with any new "isolated boost" logic via Cobb, or have you just learned to deal with the OEM logic well enough to pull this off??
    No changes on the Cobb/flash end. Using the tables currently available just in a very different way.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Looks promising. But like I've said for any setup like that he's going to want gauges in dash, meth control, NLS, 2STEP, etc. Not to mention a 3.5 bar map sensor, shifting, and partial throttle headaches. Just throw a JB4 in the mix so he has all the features he needs. Click here to enlarge

    PS. Actually I worked up that factory solenoid control secret and sent a video to Eleventeen one night. Also posted the directions here for everyone. Don't say I never did anything for you. Click here to enlarge

    http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-boost-control

    http://youtu.be/fSvgEEgy9YA
    With a V3 Cobb and their mount, the gauges, shift lights and logging are taken care of. In terms of meth and octane we'll be pushing on with pump gas and then race gas way before we touch meth. If he wants 2STEP and NLS there's WOTBox.

    Once we're off to meth we'll trust the tried and true Aquamist HFS-4 hardware with a trunk mounted tank for its superior turbine based flow sensor and failsafe as well as PWM injection/control.

    Boost wise we've done 28-29psi on the Vargas Stage 3 setup without a piggy or external boost controller as well and we could go there again the same way although we'd rather wait for Cobb or open source flash to open it up and leave the CANBus non-hijacked by external devices.

    Piggybacks are so 2012 Click here to enlarge
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 08-11-2013 at 06:17 PM.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    With a V3 Cobb and their mount, the gauges, shift lights and logging are taken care of. In terms of meth and octane we'll be pushing on with pump gas and then race gas way before we touch meth.

    Once we're off to meth we'll trust the tried and true Aquamist HFS-4 hardware with a trunk mounted tank for its superior turbine based flow sensor and failsafe as well as PWM injection/control.

    Boost wise we've done 28-29psi on the Vargas Stage 3 setup without a piggy or external boost controller as well and we could go there again the same way although we'd rather wait for Cobb or open source flash to open it up and leave the CANBus non-hijacked by external devices.

    Piggybacks are so 2012 Click here to enlarge
    Leaving a Cobb connected full time will drain the battery and who is going to set up the gauge mode each time they drive the car? Vs. having full time passive gauges always ready to go in dash? There is no comparison. Not to mention being able to instantly view logs. Sure your solution works but its worse.

    On meth for larger turbos we suggest a turbine sensor which the JB4 reads to run the progressive control and failsafe. The alternative is mounting that stupid looking Aquamist gauge somewhere to monitor/adjust meth flow and using their inferior solenoid only predefined flow range safety. Again your solution works but its worse.

    On the 3.5bar map sensor by throwing off the sensor voltages you're doing the same thing a piggyback does only in an inconsistent way. You need a properly calibrated boost sensor on the car so at least some system is aware of the actual boost levels. Be it the DME or an external system like the JB4. Against your solution works but it worse.

    On the NLS/2STEP the WOT box costs almost as much as a JB4 anyway. Your solution works but costs more.

    On the 1st gear boost limiting, partial throttle control, etc, you don't have a solution yet.

    It's going to look like a bomb went off in the DME area anyway with all the add ons. You might as well have a fully integrated and functional system with the features that go with it IMHO.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    At what RPM are you seeing full boost? I feel like my turbo is way, way too laggy for some reason, and would like to compare it to other singles out there. All I've got to compare to so far is single-turbo Supra's running similar sized turbos.
    Single Turbo E92 BMW 335i | My YouTube channel
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    If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn....... Then, you have enough horsepower.

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    7 out of 12 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    This post by Tony@VargasTurboTech is hidden due to excessive negative ratings. Click expand to view the post.



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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Leaving a Cobb connected full time will drain the battery and who is going to set up the gauge mode each time they drive the car? Vs. having full time passive gauges always ready to go in dash? There is no comparison. Not to mention being able to instantly view logs. Sure your solution works but its worse.

    On meth for larger turbos we suggest a turbine sensor which the JB4 reads to run the progressive control and failsafe. The alternative is mounting that stupid looking Aquamist gauge somewhere to monitor/adjust meth flow and using their interior solenoid only predefined flow range safety. Again your solution works but its worse.

    On the 3.5bar map sensor by throwing off the sensor voltages you're doing the same thing a piggyback does only in an inconsistent way. You need a properly calibrated boost sensor on the car so at least some system is aware of the actual boost levels. Be it the DME or an external system like the JB4. Against your solution works but it worse.

    On the NLS/2STEP the WOT box costs almost as much as a JB4 anyway. Your solution works but costs more.

    On the 1st gear boost limiting, partial throttle control, etc, you don't have a solution yet.

    It's going to look like a bomb went off in the DME area anyway with all the add ons. You might as well have a fully integrated and functional system with the features that go with it IMHO.
    I didn't know this was a thread about ultimate gauge setups but FYI, V3 AP can be turned off so no battery is drained, unlike the V2. Gauges are preconfigured and you'll have different modes (e.g. street vs. strip if you like). Its also a much more exact gauge than the in-dash gauge which very often is hard to read to be honest. Its ok to know approximately I guess.

    In terms of meth you don't need to look at the gauge ever. JB hijacks the CANBus for everything and I'd rather know how the motor is doing from the knock side of things across all 6 cylinders than to have an in-dash gauge.

    WOTBox is either 99 or 199 depending on if you need both the 2STEP and NLS, 199 for both. Is the latest JB4 G5 ISO $199 now with a $99 option?

    6 wires that go in the DME for an Aquamist HFS-4 setup IMHO looks a LOT cleaner/less like a bomb than the entire JB/piggyback harness Click here to enlarge

    Why not stay out of this thread and let us do what we do well and you do what you do well? Is that too much to ask?
    Click here to enlarge

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    wow

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I didn't know this was a thread about ultimate gauge setups but FYI, V3 AP can be turned off so no battery is drained, unlike the V2. Gauges are preconfigured and you'll have different modes (e.g. street vs. strip if you like). Its also a much more exact gauge than the in-dash gauge which very often is hard to read to be honest. Its ok to know approximately I guess.

    In terms of meth you don't need to look at the gauge ever. JB hijacks the CANBus for everything and I'd rather know how the motor is doing from the knock side of things across all 6 cylinders than to have an in-dash gauge.

    WOTBox is either 99 or 199 depending on if you need both the 2STEP and NLS, 199 for both. Is the latest JB4 G5 ISO $199 now with a $99 option?

    6 wires that go in the DME for an Aquamist HFS-4 setup IMHO looks a LOT cleaner/less like a bomb than the entire JB/piggyback harness Click here to enlarge

    Why not stay out of this thread and let us do what we do well and you do what you do well? Is that too much to ask?
    I don't see why you don't want to discuss the various options for setting this thing up? Maybe in the discussion you'll find some way to improve how you're doing things currently further? I did come up with the solenoid control scheme you're using so I can come up with good ideas from time to time. Click here to enlarge Quit being insecure about this and just discuss the topic.

    On the wotbox I thought it was $300. Even at $200 it still has to tap a bunch of wires in the DME box. What do you charge labor wise to install it? $60? $100? And what do you charge labor wise to install all that Aquamist wiring?

    On the methanol control. We could talk about it from several different angles. But here is a simple angle. How are you going to handle fuel trims on meth vs. off meth and during the transition? And boost targets on and off meth? The piggyback can manage that for you keeping trims neutral, only running higher boost levels when you have the meth kit on, etc. Flash only you have a fairly narrow window there to work within. It's workable just worse overall.

    I don't understand your point on the gauges. Are you saying you'd rather see no feedback on knock real time than just cylinder 1 knock real time? I don't get that logic. The best option IMHO would by cylinder 5 in dash. Then look at 1,2,3,4,6 in logs when tuning. On looking at gauges I don't think focusing on a handheld device is practical vs. looking in dash.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Hey guys we all love you both.

    Lets continue to be non shiv like and have a great thread. I agree that its better to have monitoring of all 6 cyl. than gauge highjacking. But I do own a Cobb and HF4 so I have no use for it and thats the route I choose.

    If you have honest suggestions, email each other, its seeming more like an attack than a suggestion.




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    crazy stuff in the n54 world.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Roy Cormier Click here to enlarge
    At what RPM are you seeing full boost? I feel like my turbo is way, way too laggy for some reason, and would like to compare it to other singles out there. All I've got to compare to so far is single-turbo Supra's running similar sized turbos.
    Wastegate has a 10lb spring. That's overcome at 4200rpm on a Dynojet in 4th gear. Here's a boost and AFR log plotted in vdyno. You can also see the car leaning out up top currently on the OEM fuel setup.

    The boost trace in the vdyno log is at the TMAP (charge pipe). The actual boost inside the intake manifold (read on the p3 gauge hooked up to diverters was recalled for all these runs at 18-18.5psi). Tells you a bit about the pressure drop at the throttle body.

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    This argument is stupid, Terry you are awesome and I really love working with you, by what you just did is a little shivish. He posts a cool thread he is excited about, and you just come in 3rd post down and basically $#@! all over it with the piggy argument again? Why, just say good job, and continue to use the JB4 and let the flash guys do their thing. Both in my eyes are great and see awesome results. If I am going to voice my opinion, anything less then a full analog boost gauge mounted in line of site is a complete waste of time on an upgraded turbo car, I don't care if its in the dash or on the cobb, were messing with big HP at this point, you need real boost and EGT gauges pulling straight from the manifold and turbine housing, not some hi-jacked crap off the DME signals. I could address the rest but I wont, I will say I had all that stuff hooked up in the stage 3 car, with an AEM AQ-datalogger on top of it all for true analog boost and EGT logging and the DME area looked fine, as long as you not a hack job at wiring, you can keep it nice. Come on guys, we all play together nice over here most of the time. D just tuned a single turbo car with flash only and deserves a little credit, I have no doubt you can tune the $#@! out of a single turbo car with the JB4, lets just agree to disagree and not sling mud.
    What Shiv does is go in threads and post about how what you're doing is wrong, will never work, will blow the car up, etc. I'm going in and pointing out how things can be improved with minimal effort. The statement about needing at least one tuning system monitoring a true boost level is accurate but maybe comes across a bit Shiv like. Other than that I really don't see where you're getting the comparison from. It's not like you throw a JB4 on and suddenly you don't need someone to tune it. Dzenno would still be tuning it. It would just be easier with more features.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Roy Cormier Click here to enlarge
    At what RPM are you seeing full boost? I feel like my turbo is way, way too laggy for some reason, and would like to compare it to other singles out there. All I've got to compare to so far is single-turbo Supra's running similar sized turbos.
    Roy, this might be a bad comparison. He is on a 1.06 A/R housing, WAY WAY too big for this application. I just posted a GTX VX GT comparo and they discuss the A/R's a lot. If he went to an .82 he would prob pick up 300-400 RPM spool, if he dropped to a .63 the car would be night and day. He could realistically pick up 750-900 RPM spool. What A/R do you have on your S300? Here is the GTX comparison again, very good reading.

    http://blog.perrinperformance.com/ga...turbo-comparo/
    http://blog.perrinperformance.com/ga...omparo-part-2/

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    What Shiv does is go in threads and post about how what you're doing is wrong, will never work, will blow the car up, etc. I'm going in and pointing out how things can be improved with minimal effort. The statement about needing at least one tuning system monitoring a true boost level is accurate but maybe comes across a bit Shiv like. Other than that I really don't see where you're getting the comparison from. It's not like you throw a JB4 on and suddenly you don't need someone to tune it. Dzenno would still be tuning it. It would just be easier with more features.
    Terry, come on man, the comparison I am making is. 3rd post down you are basically nit-picking what he is doing and saying you can do it better. Just congratulate and move on, both you guys are doing good work for the platform. I am staying out of it after this, but it was just something I had to say. Lets just move this $#@! forward, who cares who is tuning it.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I don't see why you don't want to discuss the various options for setting this thing up? Maybe in the discussion you'll find some way to improve how you're doing things currently further? I did come up with the solenoid control scheme you're using so I can come up with good ideas from time to time. Click here to enlarge Quit being insecure about this and just discuss the topic.

    On the wotbox I thought it was $300. Even at $200 it still has to tap a bunch of wires in the DME box. What do you charge labor wise to install it? $60? $100? And what do you charge labor wise to install all that Aquamist wiring?

    On the methanol control. We could talk about it from several different angles. But here is a simple angle. How are you going to handle fuel trims on meth vs. off meth and during the transition? And boost targets on and off meth? The piggyback can manage that for you keeping trims neutral, only running higher boost levels when you have the meth kit on, etc. Flash only you have a fairly narrow window there to work within. It's workable just worse overall.

    I don't understand your point on the gauges. Are you saying you'd rather see no feedback on knock real time than just cylinder 1 knock real time? I don't get that logic. The best option IMHO would by cylinder 5 in dash. Then look at 1,2,3,4,6 in logs when tuning. On looking at gauges I don't think focusing on a handheld device is practical vs. looking in dash.
    Terry, I don't want to argue with you to be honest. You don't seem to understand for whatever reason that our goal is to tune this car with whatever tools we feel are best for the job at hand. At one point that was a piggyback. Today, with work done on the N54 flashes I don't feel that way. There goes an example of how things change. Being a tuner shop we'll simply use whatever works best always and this has been discussed many times before. Cylinder 5 for instance isn't the most knock happy on other cars. I often times see actually cylinder 1 too being chatty. It really varies and I simply want to see all of them.

    We simply have ways of doing things and you clearly have ways of doing things your way. They don't need to be the same and we can I hope disagree and do it differently. I don't see anything wrong with that as long as cars are running right and people are having fun with them. That's really the point of all this at the end of the day and its also fun to see things happen differently at least to me.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Cool tech stuff, but that housing is horribly oversized.
    @Terry@BMS, I don't think they need to worry about first gear boost limiting, the turbo is way too laggy, lol.
    @dzenno@PTF You guys gonna put in an inline LPFP ? Or use the Vargas HPFP? Also has this car had any head work, or is any planned?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Terry, come on man, the comparison I am making is. 3rd post down you are basically nit-picking what he is doing and saying you can do it better. Just congratulate and move on, both you guys are doing good work for the platform. I am staying out of it after this, but it was just something I had to say. Lets just move this $#@! forward, who cares who is tuning it.
    The 3rd post down was me saying "looks promising" and pointing out I was the one that told him how to do this with the factory solenoids. Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Terry, I don't want to argue with you to be honest.
    Really the best way to do it once we can read all 6 in the JB4 is to just have it show the highest knock at any given time from any cylinder on the oil gauge. Until then cylinder 1 will have to do.

    Anyway it seems people are not capable of having an intellectual level discussion on the various ways to do things without getting upset over it. Which is shame. Often good new ideas come from these discussions.
    Burger Motorsports
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The 3rd post down was me saying "looks promising" and pointing out I was the one that told him how to do this with the factory solenoids. Click here to enlarge
    Yes and I told you how to get 2step and NLS to work and showed you how you can stack with a cobb flash. Come on now Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Yes and I told you how to get 2step and NLS to work and showed you how you can stack with a cobb flash. Come on now Click here to enlarge
    You may have been the first to install a WOT box. I'm not sure. I know Shiv had it before we did also. I actually took his idea of using a relay rather than a MOSFET for it. I originally disliked it but it wound up working well. So he gets credit for that. I've long been a fan of doing back end changes via flash for certain support functions. I was able to flash my DME long before Cobb came out with the Dimsport setup.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    You may have been the first to install a WOT box. I'm not sure. I know Shiv had it before we did also. I actually took his idea of using a relay rather than a MOSFET for it. I originally disliked it but it wound up working well. So he gets credit for that. I've long been a fan of doing back end changes via flash for certain support functions. I was able to flash my DME long before Cobb came out with the Dimsport setup.
    You're not sure eh? I do still have the emails where I told you about it you know. I worked with n2mb performance guys (John) to get it done and working for the N54 as it only worked on mazdaspeeds and others at the time properly. I actually told Shiv about it first, he added it into the procede then you added it into the JB which made me a bit sad about the n2mb guys but I guess such is life in this business. n2mb gets credit, not Shiv. I do remember both Shiv and yourself not supporting the idea of "stacking tunes" when I was running with it and showing how we could get more fuel from the car and how initial fuel limitations really weren't hardware related but tuning related and that flash tuning simply had a higher fuel ceiling opening up doors to proper alternative fuels through fuel scalars through the work done by Cobb allowing us to tune the car with E85 more appropriately.

    Let's just continue doing things differently and be ok with that. It works great that way and we can see what works better and where the limitations are. I don't recall the last time I came in your (or BMS customer) thread and discussed things this way. I decided a few months back that this sort of discuss never ends up going the right way, ever, and therefore results became what matter the most.
    Click here to enlarge

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