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    Ethnol content and lpfp

    Ran my car at the track yesterday. 12.7 @ 111 was the best run. It was hot and humid so I am sure there is more in it. The car has the e-30 ots map and ets 5 inch fmic as the only mods. I was running full weight with a full tank of gas. Heck even the windshield washer was full Click here to enlarge

    car dynoed 390 whp, 430 ftlbs in 104 f ambient temp with clean pulls as far as timing goes. Did not log lpfp then.

    However
    Looked at my logs when I got back and they do not look so good.
    1. Lpfp is dropping off to 60-62 psi by redline.
    2. Timing pulls above 4000 rpm
    3. Cylinder correction was as high as .88
    4. AIT was high. Started at 123 and ended at 140 or so
    5. My LTFTS were 6 or 7 %. Had about 25 miles on this tank, so the fuel was consistent.

    Single gear pulls in 3rd and 4th are clean but running 1st thru 4th is not clean at all IMO. I log timing on all cylinders, 1st cly had zero timing retard. Mostly 2 and 4 but not at the same time.

    Questions.
    1. Will a bigger fmic help ? Trying to avoid the obvious meth solution
    2. Lpfp not able to handle the e30 ?


    Harry

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    I would think you'd better results on the same tune with downpipes rather than a larger FMIC. The ETS is a really good unit. Pushing boost through stock cats is going to heat your turbos pretty significantly. In any case you're running too much timing for the fuel. What was the afr? Was this shiv's OTS maps?

    As far as your lpfp goes I thought it could handle e50-e70 FBO on stock turbos if it was running well.
    Yours might be tired. Did your afr go up or deviate from the target? If not then you're okay. The car should have targeted a richer mixture with the knock - that may have impacted your fueling needs.

    Jordan from cp-e did a bunch of testing back in 2009 and found that beyond e50 he had issues with fueling on an fbo stock turbo car. cp-e as scorned heavily back then bc people believed ethanol would make their cars disintegrate. The thread was in 1addicts but i think it was deleted because it competed with shiv in that it actually provided real information.

    I'd take your fmic off your hands if you're going to trade up.. Click here to enlarge

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    I wish they would bring the standback back.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    I wish they would bring the standback back.
    I can probably get you one... There is zero chance cp-e will ever sell them again. Lou, the EE, has left the company. There was a fueling issue with the box last I checked. cp-e did a lot to help this platform, e.g. first to test with e85, first to take over control of the wastegates separately from the dme, first with hijacking the gauge cluster, etc. They could just never devote the resources to the electrical department to make the standback successful.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    I can probably get you one... There is zero chance cp-e will ever sell them again. Lou, the EE, has left the company. There was a fueling issue with the box last I checked. cp-e did a lot to help this platform, e.g. first to test with e85, first to take over control of the wastegates separately from the dme, first with hijacking the gauge cluster, etc. They could just never devote the resources to the electrical department to make the standback successful.
    I don't physically want one. I want them to try their product again because I liked what they were doing. Not that I personally want to own one right now.

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    Always seems to be some confusion on how to evaluate the fuel system. For starters if high pressure is not diving below 900psi then everything is fine on the fuel supply side. Once high pressure is dipping dramatically then you need to evaluate your low pressure system. I've found low pressure has to drop below 50 for it to tank the high pressure. Your mileage may vary.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    I would think you'd better results on the same tune with downpipes rather than a larger FMIC. The ETS is a really good unit. Pushing boost through stock cats is going to heat your turbos pretty significantly. In any case you're running too much timing for the fuel. What was the afr? Was this shiv's OTS maps?

    As far as your lpfp goes I thought it could handle e50-e70 FBO on stock turbos if it was running well.
    Yours might be tired. Did your afr go up or deviate from the target? If not then you're okay. The car should have targeted a richer mixture with the knock - that may have impacted your fueling needs.

    Jordan from cp-e did a bunch of testing back in 2009 and found that beyond e50 he had issues with fueling on an fbo stock turbo car. cp-e as scorned heavily back then bc people believed ethanol would make their cars disintegrate. The thread was in 1addicts but i think it was deleted because it competed with shiv in that it actually provided real information.

    I'd take your fmic off your hands if you're going to trade up.. Click here to enlarge
    agreed dp's are required. Why would I use shivs map ? I have a Cobb ap and using Cobb e30 map. I use ATR to actually trim down their timing beforehand. I thought their timing was too aggressive.

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    If you're interested in working on it, Lou may oblige. We were really close to have a nice product. Again, cp-e wouldn't devote what was needed to this venture and ultimately Lou left.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Always seems to be some confusion on how to evaluate the fuel system. For starters if high pressure is not diving below 900psi then everything is fine on the fuel supply side. Once high pressure is dipping dramatically then you need to evaluate your low pressure system. I've found low pressure has to drop below 50 for it to tank the high pressure. Your mileage may vary.

    Thats one of the answers I was looking for. Thank you. So it seems like my timing retard is either due to high Ait or/and too much timing. Af's were dead on 12.0 12.1 so that's not it.

    Harry

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ztuner Click here to enlarge
    Ran my car at the track yesterday. 12.7 @ 111 was the best run. It was hot and humid so I am sure there is more in it. The car has the e-30 ots map and ets 5 inch fmic as the only mods. I was running full weight with a full tank of gas. Heck even the windshield washer was full Click here to enlarge

    car dynoed 390 whp, 430 ftlbs in 104 f ambient temp with clean pulls as far as timing goes. Did not log lpfp then.

    However
    Looked at my logs when I got back and they do not look so good.
    1. Lpfp is dropping off to 60-62 psi by redline.
    2. Timing pulls above 4000 rpm
    3. Cylinder correction was as high as .88
    4. AIT was high. Started at 123 and ended at 140 or so
    5. My LTFTS were 6 or 7 %. Had about 25 miles on this tank, so the fuel was consistent.

    Single gear pulls in 3rd and 4th are clean but running 1st thru 4th is not clean at all IMO. I log timing on all cylinders, 1st cly had zero timing retard. Mostly 2 and 4 but not at the same time.

    Questions.
    1. Will a bigger fmic help ? Trying to avoid the obvious meth solution
    2. Lpfp not able to handle the e30 ?


    Harry
    12.7 @ 111 which means on the E30map you had a horrible 60' and that would be above 2.0

    Also major timing pulls due to high IATs so that would explain why you are getting timing pulls after 4k RPMs. We have tested in "real world conditions" the ETS 5" it performs similar to the Dinan Spearco FMIC with the exception the Dinan does a better job of dealing with heat at higher speeds when WOT.

    During "summer" the ETS 5" is more suited for running Stage 2+ Aggressive which has lower timing, or a custom 16-17 PSI map running adv. timing (provided by proTuning Freaks)

    During winter the ETS 5" will have a better change with the E30 map and you will see full timing with little timing pulls

    Nothing wrong with your LPFP PSI at redline IMO.

    Your fuel trims look good, no issues there for running E30

    Solution:

    Change you map to Stage 2+ aggressive for summer driving and racing

    When the cooler weather rolls in below 70f load the E30 map

    or, upgrade your intercooler to a Cobb http://www.protuningfreaks.com/engin...c-n54-n55.html and this will take care of both you summer and winter needs with E30 or more
    Last edited by BuraQ; 08-11-2013 at 03:16 PM.

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    Great Post should help OP make his decision BuraQ just summed everything up!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BuraQ Click here to enlarge
    12.7 @ 111 which means on the E30map you had a horrible 60' and that would be above 2.0

    Also major timing pulls due to high IATs so that would explain why you are getting timing pulls after 4k RPMs. We have tested in "real world conditions" the ETS 5" it performs similar to the Dinan Spearco FMIC with the exception the Dinan does a better job of dealing with heat at higher speeds when WOT.

    During "summer" the ETS 5" is more suited for running Stage 2+ Aggressive which has lower timing, or a custom 16-17 PSI map running adv. timing (provided by proTuning Freaks)

    During winter the ETS 5" will have a better change with the E30 map and you will see full timing with little timing pulls

    Nothing wrong with your LPFP PSI at redline IMO.

    Your fuel trims look good, no issues there for running E30

    Solution:

    Change you map to Stage 2+ aggressive for summer driving and racing

    When the cooler weather rolls in below 70f load the E30 map

    or, upgrade your intercooler to a Helix http://www.protuningfreaks.com/engin...w-n54-n55.html and this will take care of both you summer and winter needs with E30 or more
    My 60 ft was a 1.8 something. You are correct the timing pulls seem to be Ait based. Incidentally there was a PTE tuned FBO coupe running 116 mph and 12.4 / 12.5 mph. Maybe he will chime in with the details from his logs. I am using ATR and the whole point of this is to figure out this on my own. Click here to enlarge

    regards

    harry

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ztuner Click here to enlarge
    My 60 ft was a 1.8 something. You are correct the timing pulls seem to be Ait based. Incidentally there was a PTE tuned FBO coupe running 116 mph and 12.4 / 12.5 mph. Maybe he will chime in with the details from his logs. I am using ATR and the whole point of this is to figure out this on my own. Click here to enlarge

    regards

    harry
    Hey Harry! Don't short change me. It was a 12.394 @ 116.56 Click here to enlarge

    Here is the log from that run. I didn't log LPFP but based on previous logs, I get down to around 50 with the E45 mix. I am waiting on an upgraded drop in pump to come along so I can support E45 or a higher mix more effectively.datalog5.txt
    Click here to enlarge
    PTF Tuned Cobb Stage 2+ | H&R / Koni Sport | BBS LM

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    Sorry man, didn't see you had slipped into the 12.3,s Click here to enlarge. Thanks for the logs. I think I need to turn down the timing a bit more in my case or add more ethnol since it seems the lpfp is not a issue yet. In any case the dp's are going in sometime this week Click here to enlarge I think that's the next step for me and hopefully some dci's soon. It's fun going to the track with fellow 335i's so we can compare notes.

    harry

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ztuner Click here to enlarge
    Sorry man, didn't see you had slipped into the 12.3,s Click here to enlarge. Thanks for the logs. I think I need to turn down the timing a bit more in my case or add more ethnol since it seems the lpfp is not a issue yet. In any case the dp's are going in sometime this week Click here to enlarge I think that's the next step for me and hopefully some dci's soon. It's fun going to the track with fellow 335i's so we can compare notes.

    harry
    Once you install your DP's you should up the scalar and test some a higher ethanol content by say, 5% increments. I would guess you will be fine with E40.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JStang Click here to enlarge
    Hey Harry! Don't short change me. It was a 12.394 @ 116.56 Click here to enlarge

    Here is the log from that run. I didn't log LPFP but based on previous logs, I get down to around 50 with the E45 mix. I am waiting on an upgraded drop in pump to come along so I can support E45 or a higher mix more effectively.datalog5.txt
    That was a good run considering the heat. I'm ready for a rematch though, lol, figured out the meth flow issue....I had my boost failsafe set too low on the JB4 causing it to drop into "safe mode"

    We should try to get a group to go out on a thursday test n tune so we can really get things zeroed in. I will be back there this week now that I realized my simple stupid mistake and found an e85 station nearby...Click here to enlarge
    @BuraQ

    Where did you find the Helix tested with better IAT's then the ETS? When researched I found both were top notch and seemed to do better than about everything else. Just curious, as I ended up with a 7" ETS over the Helix. I decided on either actually and went with whichever I could get a deal on first which ended up being ETS.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    That was a good run considering the heat. I'm ready for a rematch though, lol, figured out the meth flow issue....I had my boost failsafe set too low on the JB4 causing it to drop into "safe mode"

    We should try to get a group to go out on a thursday test n tune so we can really get things zeroed in. I will be back there this week now that I realized my simple stupid mistake and found an e85 station nearby...Click here to enlarge
    @BuraQ

    Where did you find the Helix tested with better IAT's then the ETS? When researched I found both were top notch and seemed to do better than about everything else. Just curious, as I ended up with a 7" ETS over the Helix. I decided on either actually and went with whichever I could get a deal on first which ended up being ETS.
    Thursdays usually aren't good for me since I have a golf league that night. We will do it again soon though.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    @BuraQ

    Where did you find the Helix tested with better IAT's then the ETS? When researched I found both were top notch and seemed to do better than about everything else. Just curious, as I ended up with a 7" ETS over the Helix. I decided on either actually and went with whichever I could get a deal on first which ended up being ETS.
    In your OP you said you have the ETS 5" . @Prat10 has the ETS 5" we compared it with my Dinan Spearco FMIC. The Dinan FMIC did better in suppressing IAT at WOT high speeds. The ETS 5" however was better at idle and cruising IATs

    I have also compared the Helix with the Dinan, and the Helix is better at suppressing heat at idle, cruising and high speed WOT's. Now as far as comparing the Helix with the ETS 7" there are no real world tests.

    Prat10 will be getting the ETS 7" and I will be getting the Cobb N54 FMIC instead of the Helix since couple users who have had both said the Cobb N54/N55 FMIC was better than Helix.

    However, since I do have access to Helix users and soon Cobb FMIC and ETS 7" all three will be compared in Florida oven heat to see which is better at suppressing IAT's during idle, cruise, and WOT high speeds. Nothing here will go untouched as it will be in "real world conditions" rather in some test lab, and same identical tune.

    So at this point I cannot comment on the ETS 7", all I know is its a huge FMIC, however IC size doesn't really mean a thing unless tested and compared
    Last edited by BuraQ; 08-11-2013 at 10:05 PM.

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    Independent testing is the way to go. IMO the 5 inch ets is decent but in these temps every little bit counts. Hope you get some results soon BuraQ

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    I had the ets 5in and currently run the 7in. I notice the difference. It's not a huge difference but it is there in the logs.
    11.76 @ 124 (123.9) full weight e92 335i, street tires, no meth.

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    I like the CPE personally but I have to say the huge eBay special on my 135i currently works nicely too for those looking for a cheaper option.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I like the CPE personally but I have to say the huge eBay special on my 135i currently works nicely too for those looking for a cheaper option.
    So would you say I should go with the eBay option or ETS 7" for the region I'm located in? Really curious to know and since you have logs from me I'm sure you would have a better idea comparing how my 5"ETs is performing comparing it to your eBay option!

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BuraQ Click here to enlarge
    In your OP you said you have the ETS 5" . @Prat10 has the ETS 5" we compared it with my Dinan Spearco FMIC. The Dinan FMIC did better in suppressing IAT at WOT high speeds. The ETS 5" however was better at idle and cruising IATs

    I have also compared the Helix with the Dinan, and the Helix is better at suppressing heat at idle, cruising and high speed WOT's. Now as far as comparing the Helix with the ETS 7" there are no real world tests.

    Prat10 will be getting the ETS 7" and I will be getting the Cobb N54 FMIC instead of the Helix since couple users who have had both said the Cobb N54/N55 FMIC was better than Helix.

    However, since I do have access to Helix users and soon Cobb FMIC and ETS 7" all three will be compared in Florida oven heat to see which is better at suppressing IAT's during idle, cruise, and WOT high speeds. Nothing here will go untouched as it will be in "real world conditions" rather in some test lab, and same identical tune.

    So at this point I cannot comment on the ETS 7", all I know is its a huge FMIC, however IC size doesn't really mean a thing unless tested and compared
    I have the 7'', but was referencing the 5" versus the Helix, there was an independent test done on another forum I read a couple months ago and they were pretty close on a WOT pull. But that was only one test and don't believe it was down here in Florida, I wasn't doubting you, just curious. Since I have the 7" it will be interesting to see your new test results, I had come to the consensus a long time ago Cobb, ETS, and Helix were the best options. I never really look at Dinan as prices are just stupid.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Prat10 Click here to enlarge
    So would you say I should go with the eBay option or ETS 7" for the region I'm located in? Really curious to know and since you have logs from me I'm sure you would have a better idea comparing how my 5"ETs is performing comparing it to your eBay option!
    Do you plan on getting upgraded turbos in the future? If you do the larger intercooler would be the way to go. Like the 7" ETS.
    2009 335i coupe back to stock...for now

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    I have the 7'', but was referencing the 5" versus the Helix, there was an independent test done on another forum I read a couple months ago and they were pretty close on a WOT pull. But that was only one test and don't believe it was down here in Florida, I wasn't doubting you, just curious. Since I have the 7" it will be interesting to see your new test results, I had come to the consensus a long time ago Cobb, ETS, and Helix were the best options. I never really look at Dinan as prices are just stupid.
    I know both of our IAT's were very high but I wonder how my 5" compared to your 7" on that last run. Mine climbed about 30 degrees. Did you spray meth at all during the last run or was it completely off?
    Click here to enlarge
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