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  1. #1
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    Talking Higher Pressure MAP Sensors

    What is holding N54 owners back from using a higher pressure MAP sensor? Are there none out there that are compatible with BMW's ECU?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    What is holding N54 owners back from using a higher pressure MAP sensor? Are there none out there that are compatible with BMW's ECU?
    Nothing,
    Just run an external GM 3 bar MAP sensor.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by unfor Click here to enlarge
    Nothing,
    Just run an external GM 3 bar MAP sensor.
    More details! Other MAP sensors will be compatible with Standback 2?!

    I'm assuming there has to be some sort of voltage scaling to match the new MAP sensor output to the OEM one.

    I'm excited for what the future holds.

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    Lets open a separate thread about MAP sensors , i am sure there will be a lot of talk about upgrading them with bigger turbos. Click here to enlarge
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ Click here to enlarge
    More details! Other MAP sensors will be compatible with Standback 2?!

    I'm assuming there has to be some sort of voltage scaling to match the new MAP sensor output to the OEM one.

    I'm excited for what the future holds.
    I don't know too much. Just that it can be done.
    I can get more detials for you guys later.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    The standback already has the capability and scaling to run the aem 3 bar. I've tuned several mazdas using both.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by boom Click here to enlarge
    The standback already has the capability and scaling to run the aem 3 bar. I've tuned several mazdas using both.
    good, very good to know.. Looking forward to the SB2 release Click here to enlarge

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    Suddenly I have a whole other laundry list to compile for the E93 Click here to enlarge

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    Like boom stated, changing out the map sensor is not a problem. The fueling on the other hand will be an issue for those wanting to push 22plus psi on whatever upgrades they have. I know there are guys attempting the secondary fuel system as we speak, hopefully something good will come of this. The vw guys all went through this already and it worked great.

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    so basically is worthless to change the MAP sensor with stock fueling since at 21 psi we are already at the limit? Why arent there any bigger injectors? would make everything so much easier and cheaper.
    07 335i AT - MOTIV 750 - MHD BMS E85 - BMS PI - JB4G5 - Okada Coils - NGK 5992 Plugs - Helix IC - Stett CP - Custom midpipes with 100 HJS Cats - Bastuck Quad - PSS10 - QUAIFE LSD - BMS OCC - Forge DVs - AR OC - ALCON BBK - M3 Chassi - Dinan CP - Velocity M rear Toe arms - Advan RZ-DF - LUX H8 - Level 10 AT upgrade
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by enrita Click here to enlarge
    so basically is worthless to change the MAP sensor with stock fueling since at 21 psi we are already at the limit? Why arent there any bigger injectors? would make everything so much easier and cheaper.

    2 different issues, one has to be viewed and verified before the other can be..

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    Injectors are not the issue. Most DI injectors flow a $#@! ton of fuel, however to place them with a xxx duty cycle is extremely hard due to insane testing pressures invovled. The problem is the HPFP. That is why most high hp DI applications tradiationaly go to a hybrid di/pi set up or just dump the di set up and convert straight to a pi setup.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Most DI injectors flow a $#@! ton of fuel, however to place them with a xxx duty cycle is extremely hard due to insane testing pressures invovled.
    Is this an assumtion? Is anyone aware of DI injectors ever failing?, or are we just assuming its too much pressure or duty due to our knowledge of traditional injectors? If the HPFP is maxed out, why not replace it with a higher pressure pump?

    I'm new to bmw's and DI, can someone explain why higher flowing DI injectors can't be manufactured and installed? Running two fuel systems is just asking for trouble imo.

    Adam

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    I asked this question in a recent thread, and I was provided with the answer that BMWs DME does not like seeing any other kind of pressures other than factory. Unfor I think tried doing a walbro intank pump and got limp mode.

    Anything to do with modifying the factory fuel system has proved to be difficult to do without causing the DME to freak out. I think he resorted to 6 additional injectors in the intake manifold for more power. Dans E93 will most likely go the same route.

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    That DME is a PITA. Now that the standback can run a 3bar map, the fuel is really the only problem. Don't most piggybacks just take control over functions and then lie to the DME about what's actually happening? Why can't the same be done for fuel pressure? I know there's a lot more to it, but what exactly is the road block? Turning up the pressure works for desiels, and they work at over 10x the pressure, so if the DME can be tricked then our fuel problem would be solved...should've been and electrical engineer instead of a welder i suppose.

    If only AEM made their pnp ems for bimmers.

    Adam

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by x335x Click here to enlarge
    If only AEM made their pnp ems for bimmers.
    It isn't that simple, the AEM pnp isn't sophisticated enough to be a true ecu replacement for the newer DME's. Even HPF has to run it in conjunction and that is with a modified AEM box specifically for their application. That is also a less sophisticated ECU than what is in the E9X's.
    Stage 2 or 2.5 E9X M3 S65 V8 supercharger kit for sale: http://www.boostaddict.com/showthrea...r-kit-for-sale

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by x335x Click here to enlarge
    That DME is a PITA. Now that the standback can run a 3bar map, the fuel is really the only problem. Don't most piggybacks just take control over functions and then lie to the DME about what's actually happening? Why can't the same be done for fuel pressure? I know there's a lot more to it, but what exactly is the road block? Turning up the pressure works for desiels, and they work at over 10x the pressure, so if the DME can be tricked then our fuel problem would be solved...should've been and electrical engineer instead of a welder i suppose.

    If only AEM made their pnp ems for bimmers.

    Adam
    Sorry, won't work. Its simply not that simple.
    I even got RC Engineering on Board for my fuel system, and there is no way around it. Secondary injection is the only option. Even that is really complicated in itself.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by x335x Click here to enlarge
    Is this an assumtion? Is anyone aware of DI injectors ever failing?, or are we just assuming its too much pressure or duty due to our knowledge of traditional injectors? If the HPFP is maxed out, why not replace it with a higher pressure pump?

    I'm new to bmw's and DI, can someone explain why higher flowing DI injectors can't be manufactured and installed? Running two fuel systems is just asking for trouble imo.

    Adam
    Yes thats an assumption based off every DI injector I have seen. The injectors are never the first fuel limit in the system. Many DI injectors are good for roughly 200whp ontop of the stock system, just a trend I am seeing. BMW seems to follow that trend. AS for replacing the hpfp, people have been trying to develop one for some time now. Since you are new to BMW im going to assume you havn't heard about the pumps failing constantly yet? Step 1 would be to prevent them from failing, step 2 would be to make the flow better. Whoever does that first, will make a ton of money lol.

    Running two fuel system is not asking for trouble, running a DI system on a high hp car is asking for trouble. Hell lexus has a DI/PI combo stock from the factory. Many of the vw guys are running a combo, and some mazda guys are finally getting into it. I believe unfor is waiting for a injector plate to be manufactured for his 335 so he can do the same.

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    Ive played with fuel pressure a $#@! ton using hte standback, once you start getting over 400whp mark, the pump simply can't keep up wth the added requested pressure. You start seeing massive pressure drops in the logs. This is sign of the hpfp being out of steam.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by unfor Click here to enlarge
    Sorry, won't work. Its simply not that simple.
    I even got RC Engineering on Board for my fuel system, and there is no way around it. Secondary injection is the only option. Even that is really complicated in itself.

    how far can the stockers be pushed? when do they start failing? if you cant post about it, im open to PM's Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Laloosh Click here to enlarge
    Yes thats an assumption based off every DI injector I have seen. The injectors are never the first fuel limit in the system. Many DI injectors are good for roughly 200whp ontop of the stock system, just a trend I am seeing. BMW seems to follow that trend. AS for replacing the hpfp, people have been trying to develop one for some time now. Since you are new to BMW im going to assume you havn't heard about the pumps failing constantly yet? Step 1 would be to prevent them from failing, step 2 would be to make the flow better. Whoever does that first, will make a ton of money lol.

    Running two fuel system is not asking for trouble, running a DI system on a high hp car is asking for trouble. Hell lexus has a DI/PI combo stock from the factory. Many of the vw guys are running a combo, and some mazda guys are finally getting into it. I believe unfor is waiting for a injector plate to be manufactured for his 335 so he can do the same.
    I'm aware of the pumps failing, which just points itself out as the week link. So if a new, higher pressure pump could be adapted can any tuner control the pressure? The desiel guys run over 20,000psi which is far beyond what we need, so the technology is there. How much different is a desiel pump than a gas? could a conversion or adaptation from an oem desiel pump be possible?

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    I have run as much as 3600ish psi of pressure in the midrange and it began taking a dive every time. I am not sure where the pressure bleed off is, but common sesne would lead to say that theres a limit even if you upgrade the pump unless the pump itself has a pressure limiting bleed in it. I am not sure how the procede of jb3 do this, but with the standback its a matter of adjusting the percentage of pressure the ecu see. Easy. With the v4/jb3 the end user has no control over it so its preset to whatever the tuner set it to.

    Now that I think about it, with the jb3 fueling resistors, you can adjust how much fuel you want with some fine tuning, however I don't know if the fueling is adjusted with the widebands or with fuel pressure. Terry would be the one to ask that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by x335x Click here to enlarge
    I'm aware of the pumps failing, which just points itself out as the week link. So if a new, higher pressure pump could be adapted can any tuner control the pressure? The desiel guys run over 20,000psi which is far beyond what we need, so the technology is there. How much different is a desiel pump than a gas? could a conversion or adaptation from an oem desiel pump be possible?
    Nope.

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    http://journals.pepublishing.com/con...l504255673671/

    Interesting read on the subject. Sorry to highjack the thread from map sensors to fuel pumps.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Reputation: Yes | No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by LostMarine Click here to enlarge
    how far can the stockers be pushed? when do they start failing? if you cant post about it, im open to PM's Click here to enlarge
    I can post about it, in limited fashion.

    Before my car even entered JE's shop, we were working on a fuel solution. there was no point in really pushing a Single Turbo without proper fuel, after all (meth doesn't count, nor is it as accurate). So anyways, JE worked with RC-E on doing a few installs for some shop cars of theirs. Naturally, JE called up RC-E and we were all talking. JE souced that injector and sent it off to RC-E to see if a bigger injector could even be made and to do some bench tests and whatnot. Anyways, the maximum limit is around 340 - 390 rwhp (no meth). As Laloosh mentioned, there is a HUGE drop in pressure around that point. HUGE.

    you may question, why a big range? It all has to do with the HPFP. That can't keep up with demand.

    Also, BMW put in certain "paramaters" from changing injectors that make it near impossible. Other companies have explored this avenue, but it doesn't work.


    got to lazy to finish post.

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