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  1. #301
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by fastgti69 Click here to enlarge
    lol what were you gonna say?
    I was making a comment on the length of the line but it only mattered in the OEM setup.
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  2. #302
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by brusk Click here to enlarge
    I was making a comment on the length of the line but it only mattered in the OEM setup.
    Ohh, well you shoulda stated it. I would like to learn anything if I'm wrong!!
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  3. #303
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I've been tracking bank to bank and they've been pretty much spot on with each other. But I did notice I needed to set the AFR target in the flash side much richer than the actual AFR. Fuel pressure is solid too. At 24psi this thing runs pretty solid though and makes around 600whp with a mild 10 degree peak advance ignition curve.
    Reason for that is due to DMEs fuel logic being dependent on true MAF. With the JB you aren't reporting true MAF values. If you recall back in the day when i tried a piggy/flash stack i noticed that issue and discussing it with Rob Irish from Cobb he explained reporting false load/boost could be an issue to fueling at higher power levels. That was the reason why I was asking him to give me an 11:1 AFR map, just so I could run 12:1 actual with the way JB ran back in the day.

    Try setting the load on your flash map closer to actual and see if you still have to set your fueling a lot richer. I'd bet it will help it.

  4. #304
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Reason for that is due to DMEs fuel logic being dependent on true MAF. With the JB you aren't reporting true MAF values. If you recall back in the day when i tried a piggy/flash stack i noticed that issue and discussing it with Rob Irish from Cobb he explained reporting false load/boost could be an issue to fueling at higher power levels. That was the reason why I was asking him to give me an 11:1 AFR map, just so I could run 12:1 actual with the way JB ran back in the day.

    Try setting the load on your flash map closer to actual and see if you still have to set your fueling a lot richer. I'd bet it will help it.
    The N54 is speed density but I know what you mean. I ruled that out as a possible cause. With boost set at 15psi across the board and a DME set point of 15psi, I noticed the same variance. Figured it might be related to the o2 sensor spacers or a reading differential under higher pressure. Since not many others run around with external wide bands it's difficult to gather outside data to determine if its normal or something specifically wrong with this car. If it's normal then no big deal as long as whomever is doing the flash knows. Prior to the turbo kit the wideband and flash targets matched up perfectly. It's about a .75:1 variance under boost.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 12-11-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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  5. #305
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    I suspect it's due to the backpressure of mounting the sensors pre-turbo. Bosch reports that backpressure can significantly skew readings on wideband O2 sensors. I'm not sure how susceptible the sensors on the N54 (LSU4.9?) are to this, but I would imagine that backpressure has some effect. I think the fact that the N54 adjusts A/F ratio in real time may help compensate for this this, though. Being 1/2 a point or so off at over 20 psi really isn't too bad as long as you can compensate with the flash.

    EDIT: I just saw that you are noticing a .75 point difference. Are the sensors reading .75 richer than actual or leaner than actual?

  6. #306
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    Doubt its anything to do with backpressure. It can happen though when true MAF isn't reported as mentioned earlier even on upgraded stock frame turbos. When I say MAF I really mean boost and the corresponding calculation the dme does to calculate MAF of course.

    Don't use Cobb, use the BB flash for instance and run a strong tune with stock load targets on the flash and 20-21psi on the jb with timing at mbt for pump+meth. You may see something very similar unless you add fuel scalar or richen it up like Terry mentioned.
    Last edited by dzenno@PTF; 12-11-2013 at 11:14 PM.

  7. #307
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    I suspect it's due to the backpressure of mounting the sensors pre-turbo. Bosch reports that backpressure can significantly skew readings on wideband O2 sensors. I'm not sure how susceptible the sensors on the N54 (LSU4.9?) are to this, but I would imagine that backpressure has some effect. I think the fact that the N54 adjusts A/F ratio in real time may help compensate for this this, though. Being 1/2 a point or so off at over 20 psi really isn't too bad as long as you can compensate with the flash.

    EDIT: I just saw that you are noticing a .75 point difference. Are the sensors reading .75 richer than actual or leaner than actual?
    DOUBLE EDIT: I see you said you have to set the flash richer than actual.

  8. #308
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Eleventeen Click here to enlarge
    DOUBLE EDIT: I see you said you have to set the flash richer than actual.
    Right
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  9. #309
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    I know FFTEC added a divider in the bottom mount single scroll manifold. This was to help wideband sensor readings at higher power settings. I'm not really sure exactly what was happeneing except there was some interference between banks. The divider goes from where the banks collect to the turbo exhaust inlet to completely seperate banks all the was to the turbo. I have the older "original" version and havent had a issue with AFT tracking. Its actually within .25 and maybe .5 during boost ramp up.
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  10. #310
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    Just throwing this out there, because I don't know the intricacies of our DME very well. But in most speed density cars your true MAF is based off MAP pressure, RPM, and a VE table. The airflow is calculated based off that table in relation to things like temperature etc, any short term and long term trims are taken into account, and the amount of fuel to hit your target AFR is calculated and injected in open loop. Now, with closed loop at WOT like we have and load based targeting, things are of course different I'm sure... but it's still all related to that VE table I would think. You know, the VE table nobody has found or is brave enough to touch yet.

    I guess it doesn't really work like that for us, because closed loop AFR targeting should push trims up so that it hits your targets regardless though I guess. But still I wonder if it has anything to do with that. When you put a REAL set of headers on a car, or headwork etc usually the car ends up lean up high on speed density cars until they are tuned. Although sometimes they artificially look REALLY rich after headers/heads due to the DME freaking out and dumping fuel (they react to the higher VE up high by adding short and long term trim which increases fuel everywhere, makes it look rich... etc etc). Just throwin out ideas from my ass here.

  11. #311
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    I believe it's simply % from target and acceleration... the DME is adding/subtracting fuel based on OL setpoint. Faster acceleration the "quicker" the DME has to react. If you had neg trim you'd be richer than target and vise versa.

    MAF matters for calculating fuel mass, but trims are just the diff from this calc... which can be manipulated. Potentially the altered hardware has an effect on DME reaction but it's not a piggy vs flash thing. It can be tuned though by targeting 0 STFT... 3D scalar works great which we now have for BB flash.

  12. #312
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    I would think with a 3D fuel scaler you could highly mask an improperly adjusted main VE table for a certain throttle angle (like WOT). But I do wonder if there is a main VE table, if it's editable, and how much it matters with closed loop targeting.

    That open loop acceleration setpoint table sounds similar to a VE adder table. You know I really shouldn't be posting here without understanding better the backend tables we have and how they all work. I've spent at max 45 minutes with them making something overly tame for a friend just because.

    Anyway, looks like jb4 st boost control is pretty nailed down at this point. Any plans to dive into conventional gates at some point Terry?

  13. #313
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by V8Bait Click here to enlarge
    Anyway, looks like jb4 st boost control is pretty nailed down at this point. Any plans to dive into conventional gates at some point Terry?
    The FFTEC kit uses a conventional wastegate.
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    Terry do you have an plans to look into fully bypassing the O2 sensors in the manifold?
    Click here to enlarge

  15. #315
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    Terry

    how much longer to 700whp


    pls
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  16. #316
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Ak335i Click here to enlarge
    Terry

    how much longer to 700whp

    pls
    It's not going to happen any time soon. But, working on changing a few things up with this car. Stronger short block, fully ported head, and maybe a different turbo.
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  17. #317
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by BTMFR Click here to enlarge
    Terry do you have an plans to look into fully bypassing the O2 sensors in the manifold?
    Perhaps down the road. Nothing short term though.
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  18. #318
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Perhaps down the road. Nothing short term though.
    That would be neat lol
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