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  1. #126
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    I think what you're trying to do with the turbos isn't going to work correctly. You will have different back pressure across the two banks and I have no clue what thats going to look like on the tuning/combustion end. To do what I think you wanted to do, you should bring the 6 exhaust ports into a log before splitting to the two turbos. You could use different wastegate/turbo sizes or go with same sized turbos and a butterfly valve on one of the turbos. That would allow you to build boost down low through the smaller or first turbo and then open up the large or second turbo on the top end. You may be able to avoid tuning the control of the butterfly valve if you go with a boost actuated valve. You are going to want different degrees of opening on the valve, not just on/off.

    As is though I don't think its going to do too great. I also don't know how ceramic coating the inside of the turbo where the compressor/turbine hugs the housing is going to turn out. Both concerned about clearances and surface finish. I think it will be worse there.

    Those are my thoughts coming from the engineering corner and based on zero actual experience doing these two things. I do plan to do what I just described eventually though if I hold onto this car.
    Last edited by rudypoochris; 10-28-2013 at 12:44 AM.

  2. #127
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I think what you're trying to do with the turbos isn't going to work correctly. You will have different back pressure across the two banks and I have no clue what thats going to look like on the tuning/combustion end. To do what I think you wanted to do, you should bring the 6 exhaust ports into a log before splitting to the two turbos. You could use different wastegate/turbo sizes or go with same sized turbos and a butterfly valve on one of the turbos. That would allow you to build boost down low through the smaller or first turbo and then open up the large or second turbo on the top end. You may be able to avoid tuning the control of the butterfly valve if you go with a boost actuated valve. You are going to want different degrees of opening on the valve, not just on/off.

    As is though I don't think its going to do too great. I also don't know how ceramic coating the inside of the turbo where the compressor/turbine hugs the housing is going to turn out. Both concerned about clearances and surface finish. I think it will be worse there.

    Those are my thoughts coming from the engineering corner and based on zero actual experience doing these two things. I do plan to do what I just described eventually though if I hold onto this car.
    Approciate your opinion. we strongly beleive, that our turbos will work fine.
    Regarding the ceramic coating: we have coated tons of turbine houses internally and externally. for example, my f10 m5 turbos are slightly modified and ceramic coated as well. they are doing fine. normally the thickness of the coating is around 9 micron.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by csl335i Click here to enlarge
    Approciate your opinion. we strongly beleive, that our turbos will work fine.
    Regarding the ceramic coating: we have coated tons of turbine houses internally and externally. for example, my f10 m5 turbos are slightly modified and ceramic coated as well. they are doing fine. normally the thickness of the coating is around 9 micron.
    Cool cool. Anxious on the results! Click here to enlarge

  4. #129
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by csl335i Click here to enlarge
    Approciate your opinion. we strongly beleive, that our turbos will work fine.
    Regarding the ceramic coating: we have coated tons of turbine houses internally and externally. for example, my f10 m5 turbos are slightly modified and ceramic coated as well. they are doing fine. normally the thickness of the coating is around 9 micron.
    A well-reputed German tuner also offers ceramic coated turbos for the N54: http://www.tuningwerk.de/tuningwerk/...mOUYc1CtDDadGg

    I would assume that they use ceramic coating for a reason.

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  5. #130
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    A well-reputed German tuner also offers ceramic coated turbos for the N54: http://www.tuningwerk.de/tuningwerk/...mOUYc1CtDDadGg

    I would assume that they use ceramic coating for a reason.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    I just haven't seen that on the inside of the turbos (running faces). That being said if its only 9 microns it probably doesn't matter. Much more concerned with the uneven back pressure than that.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    I just haven't seen that on the inside of the turbos (running faces). That being said if its only 9 microns it probably doesn't matter. Much more concerned with the uneven back pressure than that.
    If the exhaust stays divided why would the uneven back pressures matter?
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  7. #132
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    A well-reputed German tuner also offers ceramic coated turbos for the N54: http://www.tuningwerk.de/tuningwerk/...mOUYc1CtDDadGg

    I would assume that they use ceramic coating for a reason.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    Ceramic coating works great, coating turbine housings is done for 2 reasons, to help increase spool, and keep heat from transferring outside the of the housing (this is in fact what helps increase spool) The problem with coating the stock N54 housing is, they are built with a wall around the actual manifold, leaving an air gap between them to control heat, basically you are coating the outside wall which isn't going to do much, secondly their is going to be no spool gained by coating these housings as they are already such a small A/R, it may help reduce under hood temps slightly, but not worth the cost of coating imo. Other turbos with big A/R's where you are trying to keep as much heat in them as you can to pick up a few RPM spool etc, by all means coating is going to help. Also they are claiming their stage 2's are good for 600 hp. If that is BHP then yes its possible, if that is WHP its not possible with that turbine housing.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    If the exhaust stays divided why would the uneven back pressures matter?
    As back pressure goes up so does heat, so you will have one (the bigger turbo) running in a much more efficient range with less shaft speeds, lower BP, and EGT, and ther other (smaller unit) getting driven much harder with elevated levels of the 3. Its been tried before. It doesn't work properly and going with two of the same sized turbos would have been a better route, but as I said will it work, yes it will.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ceramic coating works great, coating turbine housings is done for 2 reasons, to help increase spool, and keep heat from transferring outside the of the housing (this is in fact what helps increase spool) The problem with coating the stock N54 housing is, they are built with a wall around the actual manifold, leaving an air gap between them to control heat, basically you are coating the outside wall which isn't going to do much, secondly their is going to be no spool gained by coating these housings as they are already such a small A/R, it may help reduce under hood temps slightly, but not worth the cost of coating imo. Other turbos with big A/R's where you are trying to keep as much heat in them as you can to pick up a few RPM spool etc, by all means coating is going to help. Also they are claiming their stage 2's are good for 600 hp. If that is BHP then yes its possible, if that is WHP its not possible with that turbine housing.
    Thanks for the explanation, that is very helpful.

    And yes, their claim is 600hp at the crank (in Germany whp is only very rarely used if at all as a reference figure).

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  10. #135
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    If the exhaust stays divided why would the uneven back pressures matter?
    One bank has entirely different exhaust specs than the other? Basically turned it into two different motors with different flow characteristics, egt, etc. I would assume then your tuning would assume the lower of the two limits in a best case. In a worst case... i don't know...

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ceramic coating works great, coating turbine housings is done for 2 reasons, to help increase spool, and keep heat from transferring outside the of the housing (this is in fact what helps increase spool) The problem with coating the stock N54 housing is, they are built with a wall around the actual manifold, leaving an air gap between them to control heat, basically you are coating the outside wall which isn't going to do much, secondly their is going to be no spool gained by coating these housings as they are already such a small A/R, it may help reduce under hood temps slightly, but not worth the cost of coating imo. Other turbos with big A/R's where you are trying to keep as much heat in them as you can to pick up a few RPM spool etc, by all means coating is going to help. Also they are claiming their stage 2's are good for 600 hp. If that is BHP then yes its possible, if that is WHP its not possible with that turbine housing.
    I just haven't seen it used on the inside of the turbo... like the running faces between turbine and housing. At 9 microns though, I don't think it would matter. I thought it looked bumpy on the inside surface making me think it was thicker than 9 microns.

    Regardless he's doing something different and thats really awesome. You never know what spin offs will come out. Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by rudypoochris Click here to enlarge
    One bank has entirely different exhaust specs than the other? Basically turned it into two different motors with different flow characteristics, egt, etc. I would assume then your tuning would assume the lower of the two limits in a best case. In a worst case... i don't know...
    I thought that is how the DME treats the tuning? Like two separate 3 cylinder engines? I swear I read that somewhere...hence the issues with single turbo cars and o2 sensors?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ceramic coating works great, coating turbine housings is done for 2 reasons, to help increase spool, and keep heat from transferring outside the of the housing (this is in fact what helps increase spool) The problem with coating the stock N54 housing is, they are built with a wall around the actual manifold, leaving an air gap between them to control heat, basically you are coating the outside wall which isn't going to do much, secondly their is going to be no spool gained by coating these housings as they are already such a small A/R, it may help reduce under hood temps slightly, but not worth the cost of coating imo. Other turbos with big A/R's where you are trying to keep as much heat in them as you can to pick up a few RPM spool etc, by all means coating is going to help. Also they are claiming their stage 2's are good for 600 hp. If that is BHP then yes its possible, if that is WHP its not possible with that turbine housing.
    My stock turbine house and my stock exhaust manifold was also ceramic coated. Not just outside of the exhaust manifold/turbine house, but inside as well. We can coat things inside, which is unique.

    Our new exhaust manifolds are also coated externally, as well as outside.
    This kind of ceramic coating is stops heat transfer. If you decrease the heat transfer (our coating can decrease by maxium 30%), than the kinematics energy of the exhaust gas not wasted to heat the wall, instead the gas will speed up. My engine is also coated in all relevant place, which means more efficient burnt than factory one.

  14. #139
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I thought that is how the DME treats the tuning? Like two separate 3 cylinder engines? I swear I read that somewhere...hence the issues with single turbo cars and o2 sensors?
    You are correct...I think that's what rudy is saying too...The original car with stock turbos is treated as 2 separate 3 cylinder engines (but equal flow characteristics between the two banks/turbos)...The OP is running the same two separate 3 cylinder engines, but with completely different flow characteristics because the different turbos...And this will most likely calls for some special tuning to help account for the differences between the two banks...Hopefully it works out or leads to further innovation!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    A well-reputed German tuner also offers ceramic coated turbos for the N54: http://www.tuningwerk.de/tuningwerk/...mOUYc1CtDDadGg

    I would assume that they use ceramic coating for a reason.

    Alpina_B3_Lux

    Ceramic coating exhaust manifolds, turbine house, downpipes, other pipes just outside is only the half part of the job. You have to ceramic coat inside as well to maximize the heat trap. But that is not easy on relative small things, like factory exhaust manifolds, etc. We can coat inside.

    First we have to treat the surface for example with sand blasting and then we put the coating on the harsh surface. We do not use any glue, just different chemicals. Even we do not have to heat up the surface for coating.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Torgus Click here to enlarge
    I thought that is how the DME treats the tuning? Like two separate 3 cylinder engines? I swear I read that somewhere...hence the issues with single turbo cars and o2 sensors?
    Maybe some things like fueling... but there is only one timing table. If one bank can take 10 degrees of timing and the other can take 14 degrees, you're going to have to assume the lower of the two right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by DallasBoosted Click here to enlarge
    Cool I am interested in your stage 3 also, but would probably want the smallest turbos. Perhaps the GT2560's. I only really drive my car on road courses and occasionally on weekends, so I would want something very responsive but still holds boost and torque to redline. I would not run more than 17-18psi. Right now I run the E30 Cobb Race maps on stock turbos... and it falls on its face after 5500rpm... Click here to enlarge
    I have a pre-order spot I'm trying to sell. Let me know if you're interested!
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  18. #143
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    It will be an interesting setup depending on how much of a load difference it causes between the two banks. I would imagine that NVH would increase a little, any luck maybe the exhaust note will be changed to something more exotic.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    As back pressure goes up so does heat, so you will have one (the bigger turbo) running in a much more efficient range with less shaft speeds, lower BP, and EGT, and ther other (smaller unit) getting driven much harder with elevated levels of the 3. Its been tried before. It doesn't work properly and going with two of the same sized turbos would have been a better route, but as I said will it work, yes it will.
    On n55 engine with twin-scroll turbo there is also different back-pressure on "bank1' and on "bank2". We think that on our turbos, the differences will be less than on n55 twin-scroll setup.

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    Downpipes and chargepipes

    Not much to say, still have to work hard. By the end of this week, i can show you more interesting stuff, like modified hand-brake system and more pipes and fittings.
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    Gravity drain oil tubes still going to work? Turbos seem awfully low...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by csl335i Click here to enlarge
    On n55 engine with twin-scroll turbo there is also different back-pressure on "bank1' and on "bank2". We think that on our turbos, the differences will be less than on n55 twin-scroll setup.
    How does twin scroll introduce different back pressures between banks?
    2011 E90 M3 \ Melbourne Rot Metallic

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    How does twin scroll introduce different back pressures between banks?
    Different size of turbine houses. "Bank1" has larger turbine house, "Bank2" has smaller turbine house compared to each other. The difference is small, but there is.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by lulz_m3 Click here to enlarge
    Gravity drain oil tubes still going to work? Turbos seem awfully low...
    Yes, they will work and turbos in our concept are in the possible lowest place.

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    Downpipes are almost finished

    We finalized the downpipes today. Other pipes were also optimized today. All-in all, we have a lot of work to do, but at least, we see the light...
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