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  1. #51
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    JZW blocked out part of the photo that shows it in their post. They obviously already had the read/write functionality done, so I'm not sure what they did other than make some templates based on someone else's tuning (for 2 roms).

    Just an fyi since they seem to be making a big deal of it... all axis points are editable in ATR/ATP. Always have been... and there's no difference in tables between ATR and ATP. The only difference is that ATR is locked to a single rom while ATP allows a Pro Tuner to have access to all roms and they can lock files to protect their tunes (if they want).
    i thought there were some safety restrictions in cobb software, so you can't REALLY screw it up

    which i believe wouldn't be a limitation with this?

    don't get me wrong, i'm not pleased by this development (though if it turns out not to totally suck, the price isn't too bad at least....)... it's only because it's entirely closed-source.
    boop

  2. #52
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    i thought there were some safety restrictions in cobb software, so you can't REALLY screw it up

    which i believe wouldn't be a limitation with this?

    don't get me wrong, i'm not pleased by this development (though if it turns out not to totally suck, the price isn't too bad at least....)... it's only because it's entirely closed-source.
    The only safety restriction is the fail-safes and limits built into the DME logic and that we don't offer tables that we have found would be pointless to the end-user. For example, if you set the timing table to a global 50*, you could really screw things up. The DME can only compensate so much...
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  3. #53
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    How much of the flashing protocol is embedded into the pc software and how much is done by the hand held? I dont see why we dont use this as an opportunity to get basic flashing functionality with a $100 cable and use our netbooks as the hand held. Does anyone have the jzw software?
    Jzw doesn't sell "software." You just transfer maps to the flash loader and flash the car. There is no table editing software.
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  4. #54
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    The only safety restriction is the fail-safes and limits built into the DME logic and that we don't offer tables that we have found would be pointless to the end-user. For example, if you set the timing table to a global 50*, you could really screw things up. The DME can only compensate so much...
    Makes sense.

    ahhh so you CAN do something completely stupid and break stuff even with cobb?

    i like that. genuinely. haha.

    what sort of tables exist that would be useless to anyone as an example if you remember any?
    boop

  5. #55
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    Makes sense.

    ahhh so you CAN do something completely stupid and break stuff even with cobb?

    i like that. genuinely. haha.

    what sort of tables exist that would be useless to anyone as an example if you remember any?
    Well the DME controls all sorts of things. So, as an example, I doubt anyone would need to tune the torque reserve that's modeled for the AC compressor.
    Honestly, there are a lot of tables that we currently have in ATR/ATP that no one should ever need to touch. We offer more than whats necessary to make power, we honestly have no intention to restrict anything. If its something that will make power, but could possibly destroy something, I'd rather add it and warn people than keep it a secret.
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  6. #56
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Well the DME controls all sorts of things. So, as an example, I doubt anyone would need to tune the torque reserve that's modeled for the AC compressor.
    Honestly, there are a lot of tables that we currently have in ATR/ATP that no one should ever need to touch. We offer more than whats necessary to make power, we honestly have no intention to restrict anything. If its something that will make power, but could possibly destroy something, I'd rather add it and warn people than keep it a secret.
    Do you have access to areas of the dme that would permit at to mt or at to dct swap? Do you have any understanding of how that works? I can't rep you anymore either.
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  7. #57
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Do you have access to areas of the dme that would permit at to mt or at to dct swap? Do you have any understanding of how that works? I can't rep you anymore either.
    That should be possible, but it would take a lot of testing to make sure there was nothing crazy required. There are definitely flags in code for a lot of those functions.
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  8. #58
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Well the DME controls all sorts of things. So, as an example, I doubt anyone would need to tune the torque reserve that's modeled for the AC compressor.
    Honestly, there are a lot of tables that we currently have in ATR/ATP that no one should ever need to touch. We offer more than whats necessary to make power, we honestly have no intention to restrict anything. If its something that will make power, but could possibly destroy something, I'd rather add it and warn people than keep it a secret.
    of course people need access to that kinda table, it's super important >_>

    but yeah, i see your point lol.

    yep fair enough

    one of those 'you break it it's not our fault, we gave you some warnings and made you tick that box saying 'ok' ' situations.

    cool, cool.
    boop

  9. #59
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    of course people need access to that kinda table, it's super important >_>

    but yeah, i see your point lol.

    yep fair enough

    one of those 'you break it it's not our fault, we gave you some warnings and made you tick that box saying 'ok' ' situations.

    cool, cool.
    Haha, exactly. There are plenty of things that can ruin an engine via tuning. We provide our tuning guide as a way to educate everyone on what should be done, but ultimately, if you try hard enough, you can mess something up. I could easily change the code in ATR to only allow timing up to xx number of degrees, or limit load requests to a certain number, but we want to offer a full tuning solution. What we offer that's very important (IMO) is support. It takes a lot of effort to figure out the logic and write something like our tuning guide.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    That should be possible, but it would take a lot of testing to make sure there was nothing crazy required. There are definitely flags in code for a lot of those functions.

    any progress on high gear timing corrections yet? only thing that would possess me to buy one of these units is if somehow they can figure it out on this openflash platform.

  11. #61
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    any progress on high gear timing corrections yet? only thing that would possess me to buy one of these units is if somehow they can figure it out on this openflash platform.
    Definitely a few things we've been trying. If its successful, I'll offer it asap to those with issues and add it to regular updates after that.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    Definitely a few things we've been trying. If its successful, I'll offer it asap to those with issues and add it to regular updates after that.
    well the only thing that partially works is to run 110 load straight across and control boost with a piggyback which leads me to believe its something torque related. possibly a limit or cap tied to stock levels.

    problem with running such a low load limit is part throttle fuel economy, and drivability issues part throttle as well due to peak timing which is lower than a proper flash-only map at the same pedal position.

    oh well such is life I suppose.

  13. #63
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    Isn't there a nicer looking tablet they could have sourced. It looks a little out-dated.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Glad to hear you enjoy the JB4. If you knew the actual product histories you'd probably feel differently.

    The procede was originally a device purchased from Haltech and fitted with an N54 harness and maps by Vishnu. Then marketed as a new product. One of many such similar boxes made by Haltech, Unichip, ChipTorque, AEM, etc. Actually very similar to this new "flash device" which is an existing box being fitted with N54 read/write software and marketed as a new product.

    The JB3/JB4 on the other hand was a ground up development (hardware & software) that has almost nothing in common from a hardware or software perspective with the architecture of the Haltech or other existing tuner boxes. To the point that it was/is widely "mocked" by Shiv & Co as unworkable. Yet it continues to be one of the most popular tunes out with many unique features.

    Now if it's your perspective that providing a tune in a piggyback format with logging and map switching is a copy because it's been done for decades on this and countless previous platforms, then it's a reasonable point. But we've not claimed to invent the piggyback tune here. Simply adapt it nicely to the BMW turbo platforms.

    This new flash device appears to me to be a copy in terms of form & function of the existing Cobb N54 product. I was hoping for a different form. e.g. a USB<>CAN cable with true open source software. I guess we will all just have to keep waiting for it.
    Terry, I respect what you've done for this platform. I have benefited from it. You provided a cheaper alternative to a product that already existed in terms of form & function. You created competition, which led to development and lower prices all around.

  15. #65
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    How much of the flashing protocol is embedded into the pc software and how much is done by the hand held? I dont see why we dont use this as an opportunity to get basic flashing functionality with a $100 cable and use our netbooks as the hand held. Does anyone have the jzw software?
    The device itself is doing the read/write. Since so many have flashed the trans module with a hacked INPA version, what is stopping someone from taking a DME BIN, modifying it using a similar open source editor, and then just flashing it to the DME with INPA?
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  16. #66
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    The device itself is doing the read/write. Since so many have flashed the trans module with a hacked INPA version, what is stopping someone from taking a DME BIN, modifying it using a similar open source editor, and then just flashing it to the DME with INPA?
    Im am just guessing. And I dont know much about the dme yet. But inpa flashes different parts of the dme than this 2.1mb bin file. It does a 4mb 0pa file among other things, of that I dont know how much is actually transmitted to the dme or where and what in those files are redundant, but perhaps its flashing different banks of memory that control more of the underlying control system. This would likely be encrypted/signed and checked by a bootrom. Those alpina files as an example are probably encrypted/signed with a private key and rooting the dme may be necessary before we can flash custom data with inpa. Just a guess.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Those alpina files as an example are probably encrypted with a private key and rooting the dme may be necessary before we can flash custom data with inpa. Just a guess.
    possibly, but winkfp does allow one to force a flash
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by tofu Click here to enlarge
    possibly, but winkfp does allow one to force a flash
    Well that kind of defeats the purpose of requiring a signature. If bmw is half as adamant as we keep hearing regarding stopping tuning, this is security 101. If its not done, its complex simply due to engineering.
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    Powergate marketing materials. I wonder if the N54 is natively supported or if its available open source allowing customization?

    Full Customization
    Powergate 3 has something that sets it apart from any other instrument on the market. We are speaking of Alientech Manager, the software that allows a full customization of the tool. Do you want to change the background by uploading a new image, change the icons of the buttons on the touch screen, or add the company logo? Now you can do it easily. Translate texts, icons, or messages in all languages? Now it does not need great efforts or special skills. This gives tuners the opportunity to create their own "slave" network, reselling the tool with their company logo, or choose the most appropriate pricing policies to their business.
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  20. #70
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Powergate marketing materials. I wonder if the N54 is natively supported or if its available open source allowing customization?
    Supported to what degree is perhaps a better question. We need a reverser. Period. Sniffing data between this unit and the obd port is likely to turn up an encrypted communication. We need a reverser. Ice had my day with softice, but I give credit to rombinhood and others who have cracked this lock. Once its open many things become possible for the general programmer to stumble around in, albeit inefficiently, still a potential for progress. We need someone good with hardware. Crowdfunding anyone?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    WWe offer more than whats necessary to make power, we honestly have no intention to restrict anything. If its something that will make power, but could possibly destroy something, I'd rather add it and warn people than keep it a secret.
    What about the 18.5 psi boost limit and resulting throttle closures? That's the only con to the AP, and why I keep my Procede (in my tool box). Any estimated date when this will be available for ATR? It appears you all figured something out with VTT.

    Thanks
    Change is constant

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Josh@Cobb Click here to enlarge
    BTW, We never want to hold anything back, so if there is something even kind of obvious that's worth trying... I guarantee you we have (plus a lot that's not obvious). We don't want to limit anyone, so if I find something that will help someone tune, I add it. We'd rather test on our shop cars so if something goes wrong, we pay for it... not you.

    PTF, Terry, and others have helped us with testing and when something is promising, it gets added.

    The whole "Independence Day" release is lost on me. We openly give OTS maps as bases for tuning and give ATR for free with an AP... I don't see how we oppress anyone.
    From what i've seen the table options have not increased by much... for example the 3D fuel scaler is available but i don't see that ATR is updated without a new xml file which has been out for 6+mo. How do we get these updates? Potentially some of the existing, but not released tables, can be discussed on the forum... some of us tinkerers are prob better at determining effects then tuners. We are very sensitive to our cars, not like a tuner on a dyno at WOT with maybe some limited street driving. And pretty sure some of the titles are a little off... I'd expect them to be revised occationally with new learned data. Your inhouse group is prob really good at what they do, but they do have limits... we can help. Competition good.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    From what i've seen the table options have not increased by much... for example the 3D fuel scaler is available but i don't see that ATR is updated without a new xml file which has been out for 6+mo. How do we get these updates? Potentially some of the existing, but not released tables, can be discussed on the forum... some of us tinkerers are prob better at determining effects then tuners. We are very sensitive to our cars, not like a tuner on a dyno at WOT with maybe some limited street driving. And pretty sure some of the titles are a little off... I'd expect them to be revised occationally with new learned data. Your inhouse group is prob really good at what they do, but they do have limits... we can help. Competition good.
    It's too bad you're going to leave the community. It seems like you'd have a lot of positive things to add to it with opensource. Sure you don't want to stick around for a little while?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by SingDonald Click here to enlarge
    It's too bad you're going to leave the community. It seems like you'd have a lot of positive things to add to it with opensource. Sure you don't want to stick around for a little while?
    thanks, don't think i'm going anywhere soon... no one wants a modded car and not sure when I'll get the motivation to demod. Too hot anyway during the summer.

    To add to my above post for @Josh@Cobb... how about adding another decimal place in the p-factor table. This was brought to your attention many months ago. Come on guys.

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    Nice product. A lot bigger screen and half the price when compared to Cobb. Flashing will get popular. I should probably sell my Cobb unit and get one of these.

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