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Thread: n54 potential and why hasn't anyone tapped it yet? most powerful n54s out there?

              
   
  1. #151
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
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    @Flinchy - have you ever driven an e46 m3? I am just curious - and am catching up on the posts here... Just curious.

    EDIT: yikes, this is insane...

    good debate though - this is how it should be... Click here to enlarge
    indeed, 10/10 would own.
    boop

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  3. #152
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    indeed, 10/10 would own.
    Please be honest - do you think the N54 and the S54 are on the same page in terms of delivery of power? I am not talking about capable power - but how it's delivered.

  4. #153
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
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    It does have more than this... Even the front of the car has more reinforcement than the non M cars. I need to dig up the post, I posted about this before. The STEEL itself is structurally more rigid used on the body panels... The front (dome strut) and the rear (thrust plate) of the M3 have much more than just subframes. On top of this - the geometry of these parts do not match the 3 series parts, so you would need to reinforce this yourself.


    That's not 4-5k of parts - that's MORE than the difference between a 3 series and an M3. It's economics of scale - it cannot be otherwise.
    what reinforcement?

    which parts of the steel?

    pic 1: body kit

    pic 2: body kit (wide body, the whole rear section of E92 is one piece, due to the widened rear guards, the M3 rear piece and roof and b pillar are entirely different)

    >On top of this - the geometry of these parts do not match the 3 series parts, so you would need to reinforce this yourself.

    indeed they do, you can get all the control arms and they PERFECTLY bolt up... the control arms may have different geometry themselves, but they're relatively affordable and 100% bolt on upgrades.

    track width differences between M and non-M are via wheel offset only. no wider axles.
    boop

  5. #154
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    uhh exactly,


    it's not 'ground up' as it's based off an M10 and an M88
    But the M88 isn't a four cylinder, the S14 doesn't share it's crank, rods, or pistons, and had to adapt its head. How is this the same as taking an M10 and tweaking it slightly? It isn't, it made for a unique M motor that did not exist and hence necessitated its production. It was also designed with homologation for racing in mind not how to best keep costs down. It's a real M motor.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    if it was completely unique and the block and head were freshly designed, THAT is ground up

    think of that V12 LS1 that's being made

    it's V12, it's custom as $#@!

    but it's based off an LS1 (and a half), regardless of the fact that it has 4 more cylinders.... but it's not a 'ground up designed V12'

    I'm not saying the S14 isn't a true M motor, but it's not ground up without a decent stretch of the imagination.

    this is now just arguing semantics

    bsaically i'm saying the S65/S85 are GROUND UP (custom designed) m-motors... where the others may have lots of custom, the original designs already existed in some form or another..
    Why would BMW create a new block when the M10 block as I said was turbocharged and holding some big power? So what would be the point really? Just change for the sake of change? So it shares a block but it is customized unique to any other motor isn't it? Once again, is there a four cylinder S38?

    The LS based V12 isn't the same that would be like taking two S14's and making a V8. That would be a closer analogy.

    I agree the S14 isn't as ground up as the S65/S85 due to using a bock but it's also not based on any other motor that was already in the 3-Series. New crank, new head (based on an M88 head), valves, springs, pistons, rods, etc. If the only thing being held against is using a strong block well so be it. I think we can all agree a lot of engineering went into a creating a whole new motor and the block was likely used not only due to its strength but to save time. They wanted to race it after all and had a short window.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    BMW themselves state it's an M10 block and cut down M88 head

    it's a totally deserving amazing M motor, but it's not 'ground up' m motor. they grabbed what they had, that they new was strong and worked... and made themselves something awesome.
    You said they took it from a non-M motor. The M88 really is the first "official" M motor going into the M1 so therefore you are incorrect. Additionally, they had to modify the head significantly for a four cylinder. This isn't the same as just taking an off the shelf part it wasn't that simple.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    uhh the M10 and M88? as has been stated a lot

    custom or not, it's based on the M10 and M88, that's a fact.
    It has design elements borrowed from those motors but the motor is unique. No engine existed in the E30 lineup that was an M88/M10 hybrid so to speak. So it's a unique blend is it not?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    and i explained why it was, again.
    I explained why you are wrong again.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

  6. #155
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
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    Please be honest - do you think the N54 and the S54 are on the same page in terms of delivery of power? I am not talking about capable power - but how it's delivered.
    oh god no

    the N54 has that little bit of 'less smoothness' and way more push in the midrange when the turbos come on full boost... where the S54 just climbs and climbs and climbs (NA at least)

    i'm not saying the N54 is an 's' motor at all. not even close. but it's strong, powerful, and still smooth compared to 90% of other turbo motors.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    But the M88 isn't a four cylinder, the S14 doesn't share it's crank, rods, or pistons, and had to adapt its head. How is this the same as taking an M10 and tweaking it slightly? It isn't, it made for a unique M motor that did not exist and hence necessitated its production. It was also designed with homologation for racing in mind not how to best keep costs down. It's a real M motor.
    i know it's a real m motor


    i know it's unique


    but it's based off the M88, they cut the final two cylinder sections off the head, literally.

    it's unique, but it's based off prior designs in some ways, as modified as said designs may be.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Why would BMW create a new block when the M10 block as I said was turbocharged and holding some big power? So what would be the point really? Just change for the sake of change? So it shares a block but it is customized unique to any other motor isn't it? Once again, is there a four cylinder S38?


    The LS based V12 isn't the same that would be like taking two S14's and making a V8. That would be a closer analogy.


    I agree the S14 isn't as ground up as the S65/S85 due to using a bock but it's also not based on any other motor that was already in the 3-Series. New crank, new head (based on an M88 head), valves, springs, pistons, rods, etc. If the only thing being held against is using a strong block well so be it. I think we can all agree a lot of engineering went into a creating a whole new motor and the block was likely used not only due to its strength but to save time. They wanted to race it after all and had a short window.
    ok we're finally getting to a point where i can pretty much agree


    in some ways he S14 is far more 'm' than the S54 (crazy engineering and uniqueness)


    in other ways the S54 is far more 'm' (custom block, custom head) regardless of original designs.


    there is no one philosophy to a 'true' m motor


    we have the S14 which is a heavily custom M10 and M88
    we have the S50 which is an M50 with new internals and ITB's (literally a bored out M50 block)
    50B30US which is ... well almost identical to the M50 with new internals and valvetrain (and bored out), same for the S52 for the US
    the S54 which is based off an M54 with a brand new head and block
    the 65 which is based off the S85 (brand new) and is entirely unique in every single way.

    so almost no matter what, the S55 will follow one of the above philosophies. it's almost guaranteed to have a very modified head and block, and internals for sure.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    You said they took it from a non-M motor. The M88 really is the first "official" M motor going into the M1 so therefore you are incorrect. Additionally, they had to modify the head significantly for a four cylinder. This isn't the same as just taking an off the shelf part it wasn't that simple.
    sorry, was a mistake that i ended up correcting hha


    i know, i'm not saying they didn't make major changes... but it was based off existing parts, say the block, the block was more changed in the S54 (totally different material), but the head was 'improved' more than anything.. for example, compared to the S14 having a totally unique and custom head.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    It has design elements borrowed from those motors but the motor is unique. No engine existed in the E30 lineup that was an M88/M10 hybrid so to speak. So it's a unique blend is it not?
    agreed on that. not saying the engine itself wasn't unique, but the way it was designed was from OTHER motors, is my point.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I explained why you are wrong again.
    ok
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    i know it's a real m motor

    i know it's unique

    but it's based off the M88, they cut the final two cylinder sections off the head, literally.

    it's unique, but it's based off prior designs in some ways, as modified as said designs may be.
    It's true that there are prior designs playing into it but it is a unique M motor. It required a hell of lot more work than just some more boost or software.

    What BMW is saying now is that the M motors in that chassis will be based off the motors already in that chassis. Maybe this is where the misunderstanding arises as the S14 is not based off motors available with the E30. The M88/S38 never was in the E30 so it required a bit of work to create a unique M motor. What M is saying now is that no longer will happen.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    in some ways he S14 is far more 'm' than the S54 (crazy engineering and uniqueness)


    in other ways the S54 is far more 'm' (custom block, custom head) regardless of original designs.


    there is no one philosophy to a 'true' m motor
    The M50 line had iron blocks so the S54 was not unique in this respect. But, the headwork is evolved from the S50B32. It really is a S50B32 on streroids.

    The S14 and the S54 though are true M motors. In the M philosophy being high revving, NA, and "S" designation as designed by the M division. So why is there no true philosophy? I would say M followed this philosophy for everything up until the next generation M3.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    so almost no matter what, the S55 will follow one of the above philosophies. it's almost guaranteed to have a very modified head and block, and internals for sure.
    You seem to think I'm attacking the S55 which is not the case I'm saying it's too early to decide and that M has deviated significantly from its philosophy. It started downhill with the 1M really if I was to choose one point in time.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    i know, i'm not saying they didn't make major changes... but it was based off existing parts, say the block, the block was more changed in the S54 (totally different material), but the head was 'improved' more than anything.. for example, compared to the S14 having a totally unique and custom head.
    That's fine but my point stands that this required a bit of work. Now, they will take an N55 and just tweak it. That's fine, still an M motor. But, with the 1M they didn't even do any of this. They just threw an N54 in there, showed some pictures of the car with the E30 M3 for marketing, and played on the gullible. I found it a slap in the face.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    agreed on that. not saying the engine itself wasn't unique, but the way it was designed was from OTHER motors, is my point.
    Yes but my point is the way the M division went about it makes it a unique and true M motor.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    ok
    Well then, no more contradiction?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Well then, no more contradiction?
    because i'm not too tired, and you've gradually clarified your standpoint, and we're roughly in agreeance on the matters now ^_^

    N54 not an 'm' motor

    S55 apparently mid 7k~ redline (maybe 8k), decent changes and improvements... 'm' motor (Y)
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    because i'm not too tired, and you've gradually clarified your standpoint, and we're roughly in agreeance on the matters now ^_^

    N54 not an 'm' motor

    S55 apparently mid 7k~ redline (maybe 8k), decent changes and improvements... 'm' motor (Y)
    Click here to enlarge

    LOL, gnite.

    I have work to do Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I DONT EVEN ಠ_ಠ,


    haha, it's actually 3:30pm here and i'm semi-leaving work LOL. (hey i start at 7am, and am driving to get a parcel sent off)

    this discussion was almost the most strenuous thing i did all day, besides getting ready for end of financial year stuff..

    work for sticky? bah.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    this argument was almost the most strenuous thing i did all day, besides getting ready for end of financial year stuff..
    Discussion not an argument. Try having this discussion on another forum and it will be an argument.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    work for sticky? bah.
    Oh you guys have no idea.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Oh you guys have no idea.
    i'd like to make a joke about this, but i can't even guess how hard you actually have to work in reality. so i won't Click here to enlarge
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Discussion not an argument. Try having this discussion on another forum and it will be an argument.
    ah yes, fixed

    arguments end with both parties hating each other

    debates/discussions end with education.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    i'd like to make a joke about this, but i can't even guess how hard you actually have to work in reality. so i won't Click here to enlarge
    Hard, VERY hard:

    acuraboost.com
    astonboost.com
    bentleyboost.com
    britishboost.com
    caddyboost.com
    domesticboost.com
    europeanboost.com
    exoticsboost.com
    ferrariboost.com
    fordboost.com
    gmboost.com
    hyundaiboost.com
    hondaboost.com
    importboost.com
    jaguarboost.com
    jeepboost.com
    kiaboost.com
    lexusboost.com
    lamboboost.com
    maseratiboost.com
    mazdaboost.com
    mclarenboost.com
    mitsubishiboost.com
    moparboost.com
    nissanboost.com
    roverboost.com
    subaruboost.com
    volvoboost.com
    chevyboost.com
    infinitiboost.com
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    ah yes, fixed

    arguments end with both parties hating each other

    debates/discussions end with education.
    That's why this is the best forum to have this type of discussion.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Hard, VERY hard:

    acuraboost.com
    astonboost.com
    bentleyboost.com
    britishboost.com
    caddyboost.com
    domesticboost.com
    europeanboost.com
    exoticsboost.com
    ferrariboost.com
    fordboost.com
    gmboost.com
    hyundaiboost.com
    hondaboost.com
    importboost.com
    jaguarboost.com
    jeepboost.com
    kiaboost.com
    lexusboost.com
    lamboboost.com
    maseratiboost.com
    mazdaboost.com
    mclarenboost.com
    mitsubishiboost.com
    moparboost.com
    nissanboost.com
    roverboost.com
    subaruboost.com
    volvoboost.com
    chevyboost.com
    infinitiboost.com
    *rubs chin*

    nnnnnnnnah not seeing it

    needs more boost? hah

    >europeanboost.com


    will be an umbrella including germanboost?

    how about a 'japanboost' or 'jdmboost' to umbrella the JDM brands?

    or that's an incomplete list. *whistles*

    but seriously, keep it up, dis gon be good!
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    That's why this is the best forum to have this type of discussion.
    not debating that one.

    no other forum have i been able to have this sort of discussion with the owner/admin lol
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    how about a 'japanboost' or 'jdmboost' to umbrella the JDM brands?
    importboost.com covers that.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    >europeanboost.com

    will be an umbrella including germanboost?
    Yes.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    importboost.com covers that.



    Yes.
    ah looks like you've thought of everything haha
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    ah looks like you've thought of everything haha
    Just about. Don't think I'm missing anything other than Toyota but I might be.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by govr46 Click here to enlarge
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    Tell that to people that buy a 1M. lol
    A motor in an M does not an M motor make... If BMW's M division didn't make it then it simply isn't an M motor. Or they would have given it an S designation like they did with the S63. That motor is also based on a regular BMW motor but with modifications. See the trend? The 1M simply has the motor out of a 335is.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
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    1M?

    also, the new motor is (apparently) N55 based... so..?
    See above. 1M has an N54 which is not an M division motor. New M3 motor is gonna be called S55. It's not an N55. It's gonna be an M motor (as far as the new BMW M motors are still deserving of that name).

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
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    Really? So the 1M doesn't exist?

    Oh, and don't say people bye a 1M cause they can't afford an M6 for $120, most 1Ms you find now sell for similar price as an M3

    It's a 1M instead of M1, well, because the M1 is a different F-ing car! If you don't know about the M1, you know, the car that started everything "M", then stfu and just read.

    Anyway, this thread sucks and is now filled with idiots getting into a pissing match over things that don't really matter cause you can't answer the questions asked by me, the OP! If you're an admin you should either clean this up or just delete it altogether, not much useful info is coming of this, unless you didn't know the 1m has an N54, or why it's a 1M, and not M1...
    I am so lost here. I think you all took this the wrong way. I'm a huge N54 fan. I owned a 335i... hence the username. I was just pointing out that the N54 isn't an M motor. Which it isn't.

    As far as the thread, I can't quite understand what it was even meant to do. The N54 seems to be doing very well in the hands of VTT and PTF. But because I'm such a swell guy, I'll go ahead and answer the questions in the OP just in case they weren't (or because my answers are worth more as I am a swell guy and all).

    1) approximately what kind of power can one expect to push through the n54 motor and trans before needing any upgrades? I've heard 700? If so, how come only a handful pushing close to that seem to exist?

    Because it's a recent development. Last year was the first single turbo kit from FFTEC and the Shivster. Look at the e46 M3. It's been out for a much longer time and there are still relatively few people with massive modifications. Most people do the standard bolt ons and stop.

    2) what kind of motor upgrades would be needed to push say 800,900, or even a 1000 HP through this car? (Please include trans)

    Automatic transmission must be built. A manual shouldn't need all the much. New clutch, etc. No one knows about the motor yet. Probably pistons, maybe sleeving. It all depends really. But we won't know until one says boom.

    3) I have only seen a couple people ever use nitrous on the n54, how come? Isn't this motor capable of holding extreme temperatures? Or at least higher than average running temps?

    There's a couple of nitrous guys, but a nitrous setup takes up trunk space, costs a bit of money, and requires more upkeep. A lot of people also have a negative view of it. At the moment, you seem to get so much extra from E85 and methanol that the nitrous is just more work than it is worth.

    4) what is the current most powerful n54? I believe Vargas holds record for most powerful stock motor at 723hp or something like that, what about non stock motor?

    There is no non-stock motor record since no one has built one yet to my knowledge.

    5) other parts of concern even launching FBO with 400hp, what about drive/half shaft?

    I snapped some halfshafts. Driveshaft never gave me issues. I was AT. That's the major point of weakness that I noticed. Tranny slip and halfshafts that leave you stranded at the drag strip.

    Thanks in advance, I feel like n54 has huge potential, and many seem to say it does, but if most powerful n54 is only 700hp, I'm not that impressed, for about $9k, yeah impressed, but if thats all its got, then what? Click here to enlarge

    That's all it has right now because it is still a relatively new motor and there aren't that many people looking for over 800whp in a daily driver. 700 is a huge number on a stock motor. Give it time and things will happen. But most people aren't interested in funding a motor build before things are proven. I've seldom seen a platform develop faster than the N54. This isn't a 2JZ. It hasn't been out for a decade yet. There's also no indication that 700 is all it's got. I'm sure some crazy bastard with limitless pockets will come by and build a motor soon enough. But you also have to remember that for an N54 to put down that kind of power, you have to do a lot to the rest of the car.
    Click here to enlarge

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    There are plenty of built N54s out there. We have sold a bunch of piston/rod combos already. There are plenty of badasses who simply don't post on the internets or participate in internet events.

    2JZs were making 700whp in 1999 (6 years old). N54 isnt too far off.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
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    I've seldom seen a platform develop faster than the N54. This isn't a 2JZ. It hasn't been out for a decade yet. There's also no indication that 700 is all it's got. I'm sure some crazy bastard with limitless pockets will come by and build a motor soon enough. But you also have to remember that for an N54 to put down that kind of power, you have to do a lot to the rest of the car.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
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    There are plenty of badasses who simply don't post on the internets or participate in internet events.
    I have to say this is very true. Forum guys often think the world revolves around them. It should... but it doesn't. I'm surprised how many things stay off the forums. If only you guys knew... and if only I knew how much was out there.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
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    2JZs were making 700whp in 1999 (6 years old). N54 isnt too far off.
    The S65 got there faster. Just saying...
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    You look like a retarded teenager discovering internet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Mike@VAC Click here to enlarge
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There are plenty of built N54s out there. We have sold a bunch of piston/rod combos already. There are plenty of badasses who simply don't post on the internets or participate in internet events.

    2JZs were making 700whp in 1999 (6 years old). N54 isnt too far off.
    Interesting. I didn't even know you made pistons and rods for the N54....
    Click here to enlarge

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