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  1. #76
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    The n54 is amazing for the BMW tuning scene...years ago the e36/ e46 non m cars were boring and making big power out of them cost you a arm and a leg. This n54 is legendary for the BMW tuning scene, like it or not, it's good for everyone. It even pushes the m platform....I know I'd want a boosted m so some punk in a stock looking 135 doesn't beat me in a race lol
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, it seems that people forget very easily and quickly then even though only 6 cylinders, the N54 is still an M motor, and obviously cost them more to make and they don't see it as an equal to other 3 series motors or they wouldn't be charging extra for the vehicles to get it! (is)
    As much as I love the N54... it's not an M motor. Just clearing that up.
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    You guys are correct with the power comment, but the m3 drives like no other! Honestly, BMW was smart not to mass produce the 1m, IMO it may have hurt m3 sales on the back end of production.

    I also find it funny that m3 owners don't like to acknowledge the 335 can be made as fast as a stock m3 with little mods, yet they will discuss how quick the 1m is. Go read some threads about 1m vs m3 and then 335 vs m3, you would think the 1m has a different engine in it.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    You guys are correct with the power comment, but the m3 drives like no other! Honestly, BMW was smart not to mass produce the 1m, IMO it may have hurt m3 sales on the back end of production.

    I also find it funny that m3 owners don't like to acknowledge the 335 can be made as fast as a stock m3 with little mods, yet they will discuss how quick the 1m is. Go read some threads about 1m vs m3 and then 335 vs m3, you would think the 1m has a different engine in it.
    I don't think that it's impossible to make a standard 3 series handle like an M series (1m/M3) - however the cost to do so is pretty high. I just don't think it would make any sense to change subframes/reinforce chassis/bushings/suspensions/steering racks/etc. to get to that level. Just start with a 1M/M3 to begin with.

    The engine in the 1M has never ever been touted as anything special though - by any review I have ever read... Throttle response, turbo lag, these things still exist - as you said, it's the same motor in a 335i - a bit tuned, but still same. That's what seperates it from an M3 (along with the options you cannot get on the 1M - like DSG/DCT).

    I think people just get frustrated with "oh, I am making 500 RWHP - now all I need to do is add some suspension bits on it, and I have an M3 killer"... That's insane - and ridiculous to say, as it's not going to happen unless you want to spend a ton of money to do it right.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    Its clearly a an I am better than you situation taken personally and then it comes out as this unexplainable, "My car is just, better" feeling. S65 owners are plagued with this. Sure their engines are superior in many ways, but they won't own up to certain comparisons where they aren't. It always resorts back to, but I could just slap on an XYZ mod, usually costing much more and taken the average M3 modder vs average N54 modder, the N54 is going to be faster for less money. This is probably a heart breaker because normally its the other way around. Usually the saying is, if you want to go faster, you might as well upgrade to the next model up. AKA, 328 -> 335. But with the 335i, there is little reason to go M3 if you want power, because its more affordable on the 335 than buying a brand new car. Look at LM. He spent more money and went slower.
    Good post... I agree with what you are saying here - if you goal is to go fast (in a mostly straight line/for highway runs) for little money, the 335i makes the most sense (talking BMW here).

    For a racetrack however, most people would go with the S motors of the past... Some even swap out the N54 with an S motor when they want to get serious on the track.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think that it's impossible to make a standard 3 series handle like an M series (1m/M3) - however the cost to do so is pretty high. I just don't think it would make any sense to change subframes/reinforce chassis/bushings/suspensions/steering racks/etc. to get to that level. Just start with a 1M/M3 to begin with.

    The engine in the 1M has never ever been touted as anything special though - by any review I have ever read... Throttle response, turbo lag, these things still exist - as you said, it's the same motor in a 335i - a bit tuned, but still same. That's what seperates it from an M3 (along with the options you cannot get on the 1M - like DSG/DCT).

    I think people just get frustrated with "oh, I am making 500 RWHP - now all I need to do is add some suspension bits on it, and I have an M3 killer"... That's insane - and ridiculous to say, as it's not going to happen unless you want to
    spend a ton of money to do it right.
    Your right, that being said, if they can improve on the flaws you highlighted of the current n54 motor, with the new s55, the next gen m3 will be a home run.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
    As much as I love the N54... it's not an M motor. Just clearing that up.
    Tell that to people that buy a 1M. lol

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by mjmarovi Click here to enlarge
    Alright, so I'm pretty new to the n54 scene, had my car for a month now (09' e92, le mans blue or w/e they call it, 39k miles 6at) and finishing off FBO this weekend (thank you ETS!). I did a lot of research before purchasing, and am still researching turbo upgrade kits and what issues/weaknesses the car might have that I may need to upgrade (fuel delivery for example, clutch in 6MT I know, but I have AT so no worries there). Or is there? That is one of my questions.

    1) approximately what kind of power can one expect to push through the n54 motor and trans before needing any upgrades? I've heard 700? If so, how come only a handful pushing close to that seem to exist?

    2) what kind of motor upgrades would be needed to push say 800,900, or even a 1000 HP through this car? (Please include trans)

    3) I have only seen a couple people ever use nitrous on the n54, how come? Isn't this motor capable of holding extreme temperatures? Or at least higher than average running temps?

    4) what is the current most powerful n54? I believe Vargas holds record for most powerful stock motor at 723hp or something like that, what about non stock motor?

    5) other parts of concern even launching FBO with 400hp, what about drive/half shaft?

    Thanks in advance, I feel like n54 has huge potential, and many seem to say it does, but if most powerful n54 is only 700hp, I'm not that impressed, for about $9k, yeah impressed, but if thats all its got, then what? Click here to enlarge
    Why the F would you buy a 3 series if you want massive HP like you are talking about? 700-800whp should be plenty for anyone in a 3 series if you ask me.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by govr46 Click here to enlarge
    I guess you could say the same about your car. You made 1 dyno pull. Doesn't mean anything.
    But you made your power with a built motor. Our top and bottom end are still stock.

    The way you talk of the S65 is pure worship. If people start making built N54's with 1000-1200whp would you congratulate them, probably not cause it's not a S65. It's just crazy man.
    Why would I not congratulate them? I've congratulated every record every step of the way as we are. You act like I blindly hate on the N54. The S65 has its share of issues too.

    Somebody does a dyno pull and then people start jumping to ridiculous conclusions like 1200 hp for the N54. It's a process, it takes time, and a lot of development is still necessary. Hold your horses. That isn't me worshiping another motor it's me being realistic.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
    As much as I love the N54... it's not an M motor. Just clearing that up.
    He meant to say isn't, typo.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think that it's impossible to make a standard 3 series handle like an M series (1m/M3) - however the cost to do so is pretty high. I just don't think it would make any sense to change subframes/reinforce chassis/bushings/suspensions/steering racks/etc. to get to that level. Just start with a 1M/M3 to begin with.

    The engine in the 1M has never ever been touted as anything special though - by any review I have ever read... Throttle response, turbo lag, these things still exist - as you said, it's the same motor in a 335i - a bit tuned, but still same. That's what seperates it from an M3 (along with the options you cannot get on the 1M - like DSG/DCT).

    I think people just get frustrated with "oh, I am making 500 RWHP - now all I need to do is add some suspension bits on it, and I have an M3 killer"... That's insane - and ridiculous to say, as it's not going to happen unless you want to spend a ton of money to do it right.
    Funny how fanboys hate this post...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Brey335i Click here to enlarge
    As much as I love the N54... it's not an M motor. Just clearing that up.
    1M?

    also, the new motor is (apparently) N55 based... so..?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I don't think that it's impossible to make a standard 3 series handle like an M series (1m/M3) - however the cost to do so is pretty high. I just don't think it would make any sense to change subframes/reinforce chassis/bushings/suspensions/steering racks/etc. to get to that level. Just start with a 1M/M3 to begin with.

    The engine in the 1M has never ever been touted as anything special though - by any review I have ever read... Throttle response, turbo lag, these things still exist - as you said, it's the same motor in a 335i - a bit tuned, but still same. That's what seperates it from an M3 (along with the options you cannot get on the 1M - like DSG/DCT).

    I think people just get frustrated with "oh, I am making 500 RWHP - now all I need to do is add some suspension bits on it, and I have an M3 killer"... That's insane - and ridiculous to say, as it's not going to happen unless you want to spend a ton of money to do it right.
    suspension wise (no subframe) ~ $2-3k there... then the only major difference handling wise is track (fitting in the wider/lower offset wheels) and LSD.. it's about $2-$2.5k for an M3 rear subframe, LSD, and all control arms and bushings... so probably $1k~ more than just getting the bushings/control arms for the rear separately

    oh and getting braking sorted, but that's upgradeable for the M3 too... and a decent set of coilovers, which is a no-brainer for most people anyway.

    so $5-$6k... and the only major headache after that is widening the body to fit the wheels/rubber in.

    chassis in the M's doesn't have any reinforcing vs non-M, just lighter/stronger subframes and control arms/bushings.

    it may not make sense for you people in the states where the difference bteween M and non-M is relatively small financially... where over here it's 10's of thousands, and a non-M turbo is ~$35-$40k, where an M3 (cheap) is about $90k, and a 1M is hard to get sub $100k still.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    1M?

    also, the new motor is (apparently) N55 based... so..?
    1M has an N54. Not an M motor, never will be.

    The S55 we have to see. But an S54 isn't an M54.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    1M has an N54. Not an M motor, never will be.

    The S55 we have to see. But an S54 isn't an M54.
    that's just like denying the 1M isn't an M car (ok, i can kinda agree with that... they literally did just take the subframe/suspension etc. from an M3 and bolt it on to an E82.. then custom body kit)

    it may not be specially designed from the ground up as an N54S or something... but BMW saw it fit to put in an M car, and it performs toe to toe with them.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    but BMW saw it fit to put in an M car, and it performs toe to toe with them.
    BMW broke their own rule for profit. Hence loss of respect. Hence $#@! BMW. Hence $#@! M.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    BMW broke their own rule for profit. Hence loss of respect. Hence $#@! BMW. Hence $#@! M.
    it still has a mechanical LSD, every single suspension part that makes an M3 an M3, with the only thing that's technically not 'M' being the motor.... would it have been better if they flowed the hell out of the head and put a forged bottom end in (and maybe bumped the redline by a couple of hundred)?... of course it would, but then all the M3 owners would (actually) be crying at the level of beatdown the 'N54S' as i'd like to call it 1M would put down on the S65 M3 at that point.. and it would alienate those owners too much potentially

    With the (upcoming hopefully?) M1/M2.... well who knows what they're going to do? it's almost impossible to NOT make them absolute monster weapons... otherwise who would buy one? the M235i/M135i dictate minimum performance,and the market is now hopefully ready and accepting that the baby BMW's can and (realistically) should be stupid fast

    either that, or they're going to just not do a low series M again, and keep the Mx35i's as the top. which makes sense. much more and the M3/M4 would be in trouble..?

    I'm not happy with M135i, 'm sport packs' and all that other $#@! that's diluting the brand (nothing should ever have an ///M badge without a maehcanical LSD at a minimum) though.
    Last edited by Flinchy; 07-02-2013 at 06:49 PM.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    it still has a mechanical LSD, every single suspension part that makes an M3 an M3, with the only thing that's technically not 'M' being the motor....
    Yep it's a 135is really.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    but then all the M3 owners would (actually) be crying at the level of beatdown the 'N54S' as i'd like to call it 1M would put down on the S65 M3 at that point.. and it would alienate those owners too much potentially
    Nah I'd at least rather have a real M car I can deal with that. Is straightline speed what makes the best M car? Is that how we gauge it?

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    With the (upcoming hopefully?) M1/M2.... well who knows what they're going to do? it's almost impossible to NOT make them absolute monster weapons... otherwise who would buy one? the M235i/M135i dictate minimum performance,and the market is now hopefully ready and accepting that the baby BMW's can and (realistically) should be stupid fast
    The M2's purpose is value above all else.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Yep it's a 135is really.
    135is going by naming convention in the past would have been JUST a 135i with m-sport suspension and a mech LSD (at least that's how it was in E30/36?)

    the rest does make it a bit above


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Nah I'd at least rather have a real M car I can deal with that. Is straightline speed what makes the best M car? Is that how we gauge it?
    but it already DOES have the full M-handling component, and 'driving dynamic feel' blah blah

    the ONLY thing making the 1M not an M-car would be the engine

    yeah, you could argue that the suspension wasn't designed from the ground up.... but the E8x and E9x platforms are extremely homogenous, so it didn't really need to be (plus, things like the the rear sway bar were tuned for the shorter wheelbase)

    unless you see an m-car as a full engineering exercise, which i can't disagree with and fully understand/respect.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The M2's purpose is value above all else.
    in what way though... $/performance?

    like i said, it can't realistically be a worse performer, or have worse potential than the 35i models... it may not JUST be about the engine, but it's a big component these days, especially for marketing. if it has 2 less cylinders? well 6>4 why would i want 4?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    135is going by naming convention in the past would have been JUST a 135i with m-sport suspension and a mech LSD (at least that's how it was in E30/36?)

    the rest does make it a bit above
    The past naming conventions should have been applied. No need to dilute M with non-M motors and cars.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    but it already DOES have the full M-handling component, and 'driving dynamic feel' blah blah

    the ONLY thing making the 1M not an M-car would be the engine

    yeah, you could argue that the suspension wasn't designed from the ground up.... but the E8x and E9x platforms are extremely homogenous, so it didn't really need to be (plus, things like the the rear sway bar were tuned for the shorter wheelbase)

    unless you see an m-car as a full engineering exercise, which i can't disagree with and fully understand/respect.
    I see an M car as an M car. Not bits and pieces from M cars. The whole thing. It's all M or it's not an M.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    in what way though... $/performance?
    Yes, in the BMW lineup. It's for the guys who can't spend $120k for an M6. Also for the guy who wants a fun drivers car without breaking the bank.
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    I don't know how the m2 won't be real fast, I mean it has to be faster than the m135....right? What if it has the same engine as the m3 but detuned ( like the 320 vs the 328). Or maybe it just doesn't have a LSD, oh that would be sweet. Buy a m2, throw a tune at it and a LSD and rip..... Please do it BMW, I don't want to fork over the cash for a new m3 if I don't have to!
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    The past naming conventions should have been applied. No need to dilute M with non-M motors and cars.



    I see an M car as an M car. Not bits and pieces from M cars. The whole thing. It's all M or it's not an M.



    Yes, in the BMW lineup. It's for the guys who can't spend $120k for an M6. Also for the guy who wants a fun drivers car without breaking the bank.
    yeah fair enough.... it's getting a bit screwy, but the best BMW cars are still not terrible yet haha.

    point 2 - fair enough... that's why it's called a 1M rather than M1 i guess?

    and on the last point... yeah of course, but if they do it right, like the 1M but ground-up M2.... it'll blow away every other car in performance terms. weigh less, better power:weight, better handling. and i'm not sure that's what they WANT to do.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I don't know how the m2 won't be real fast, I mean it has to be faster than the m135....right? What if it has the same engine as the m3 but detuned ( like the 320 vs the 328). Or maybe it just doesn't have a LSD, oh that would be sweet. Buy a m2, throw a tune at it and a LSD and rip..... Please do it BMW, I don't want to fork over the cash for a new m3 if I don't have to!
    that's what i'm saying

    unless they try and go for the 'oh it's so balanced! it handles way better even if the engine is technically lower down the food chain!' which i think would fail straight up

    there's nothing they can do to the M2 to not make it ridiculously fast, and still succeed.

    can't not have an LSD, anyone who buys an M SHOULD know the difference, it being a proper sports car (obviously there'll be lots who don't give two $#@!s)... but that would be the final nail in the coffin for M imo.
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I don't know how the m2 won't be real fast, I mean it has to be faster than the m135....right? What if it has the same engine as the m3 but detuned ( like the 320 vs the 328). Or maybe it just doesn't have a LSD, oh that would be sweet. Buy a m2, throw a tune at it and a LSD and rip..... Please do it BMW, I don't want to fork over the cash for a new m3 if I don't have to!
    BMW always downsizing the motor for the M3 versus the M5 shows BMW is aware of this. I don't think they plan to shoot themselves in the foot. Porsche protects the 911 for the same reason.
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    Well, good luck seeing anything M powered again. The S65 is the last true "///M" engine produced. Everything from this forward will be based off production engines.

    It sucks, and I hate it.
    (Coming from a guy who has an "s"52 lol)
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    BMW always downsizing the motor for the M3 versus the M5 shows BMW is aware of this. I don't think they plan to shoot themselves in the foot. Porsche protects the 911 for the same reason.
    porsche example, is crazy though... given identical engines, the cayman would in theory have the performance advantage over the 911.... can understand their desire to remain loyal to the rear engine ones though.



    there's not much downsizing room for the M2 though, considering the 3L N55 in the M235i making 330hp~?
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    there's not much downsizing room for the M2 though, considering the 3L N55 in the M235i making 330hp~?
    320 so yes, they may just leave it as an M235i. We don't know yet but the CLA45 AMG and the RS3 may pressure it.
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