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  1. #1
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    AFR Delta between bank 1&2

    *Please no tuner war, Shiv hate, etc. in this thread. Just looking to get this issues resolved*

    I have recently been having issues with a delta between banks 1 and 2 for AFR and fuel trim. The richer bank has a higher fuel trim, so the DME is intentionally making it richer. Looking at old logs, this started after I replaced both O2 sensors. Talking to Shiv he thought it was either long term adaptations causing it or old injectors having a bad seal (this was eliminated after a compression test [one bank was replaced under warranty 20k miles ago.])


    So today I went ahead and cleared lambda adaptations with Inpa. No luck. So I then reset ALL adaptations with Inpa. After the first restart I got a DSC error and 500-1500rpm repeatedly (learning TPS). I restarted it & it idled fine, but AFR was constant(not reading). I restarted again and the AFR's were the same for ~10 seconds then the delta developed again. With the Daten files loaded I couldn't read my injectors so I just updated my Daten. Now there are additional adaptations listed that I will reset those tomorrow and see if it makes a difference.


    Hopefully someone will have some insight into what may be causing this... I could try replacing the O2's again or the injectors, but hopefully it can be fixed via INPA.


    Also note, it runs fine like this. It just limits my fueling trim window because one is higher and I don't want the other to go negative. Also it annoys me knowing it's there.


    OLD AFR:
    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge




    NEW AFR:
    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge


    Click here to enlarge


    Compression Test:
    Cyl | PSI
    1 | 166
    2 | 179*
    3 | 173
    4 | 176*
    5 | 169*
    6 | 174
    *newer injectors (~22k miles vs 63k)
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  2. #2
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    Do you have BMS DP fix or enabled with your PROCEDE?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by blisstik Click here to enlarge
    Do you have BMS DP fix or enabled with your PROCEDE?
    No DP fix. What do you mean "or enabled with your Procede"? I don't know of a o2 sim feature on the Procede.
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TCW Click here to enlarge
    No DP fix. What do you mean "or enabled with your Procede"? I don't know of a o2 sim feature on the Procede.
    older rev2 Procedes had an O2 sim built in (same in function as the BMS DP fix).

    Not trying to incite any Shiv hate, but I've seen this plenty of times before... try a different tune? Only to rule it out.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by themyst Click here to enlarge
    older rev2 Procedes had an O2 sim built in (same in function as the BMS DP fix).

    Not trying to incite any Shiv hate, but I've seen this plenty of times before... try a different tune? Only to rule it out.
    Ok, well this is the REV3. Also this is a ST car so I don't think another tune will be capable of controlling the WG. Also as I understand it, the Procede isn't controlling anything at idle.
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  6. #6
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    Was gonna say try another tune... Could you try removing the PROcede, leaving the WGs open & monitoring your AFRs??
    COBB AP ProTune by Bren of ///Bren Tuning
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    Looks like scaling...

  8. #8
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    Turn off the DP fix it its enabled.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by benzy89 Click here to enlarge
    Was gonna say try another tune... Could you try removing the PROcede, leaving the WGs open & monitoring your AFRs??
    I will try that tomorrow if I have time and resetting the adaptations with the new daten files (vasilov's) doesn't fix it.
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    Looks like scaling...
    Why would these symptoms arise after replacing the O2's? It was still Procede ST in the old graphs. Seems to me it can only be the DME adaptations from the worn out O2's or one of the new O2's are faulty throughout the entire range (which still doesn't make sense because the DME is telling the richer bank to be rich via the fuel trim.)
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  11. #11
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    I mean graph scaling in the software. Pull up one of your graphs and select trim bank 1 in the left, press P, uncheck autoscale and make it -30 to +30 or something like that, and do the same for bank 2 trims. Easy enoguh to rule that possibility out.

  12. #12
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by TCW Click here to enlarge
    Ok, well this is the REV3. Also this is a ST car so I don't think another tune will be capable of controlling the WG. Also as I understand it, the Procede isn't controlling anything at idle.
    didn't realize you have a ST. well in that case you will need to work with shiv. like @Tzu said you also may want to check the log scaling. you can compare the actual numbers by opening the procede log in excel to rule scaling out.

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    Yeah check scaling, although maxes equal... graph separately and confirm same range.

    Is AFR set in the DME with procede table at 50 in all cells? As others asked do you have post cat o2 routed through procede or bypassed in harness

  14. #14
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    I've wondered how the ST cars are going to work with both post-cat sensors in the same bank. Seems likely for long term trims to get out of whack from bank to bank. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
    Home of the Worlds fastest N20s, N54s, N55s, N63s, S55s, and S63s!

    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  15. #15
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I mean graph scaling in the software. Pull up one of your graphs and select trim bank 1 in the left, press P, uncheck autoscale and make it -30 to +30 or something like that, and do the same for bank 2 trims. Easy enoguh to rule that possibility out.
    Oh I see, yes the scaling is the same. I can watch the numerical readout in realtime through the software and there is a constant 1-1.5 delta at idle.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    Yeah check scaling, although maxes equal... graph separately and confirm same range.

    Is AFR set in the DME with procede table at 50 in all cells? As others asked do you have post cat o2 routed through procede or bypassed in harness
    The AFR setting is whatever the single turbo maps were set at (I don't recall the values right now.) The post cat o2's are jumped in the harness.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I've wondered how the ST cars are going to work with both post-cat sensors in the same bank. Seems likely for long term trims to get out of whack from bank to bank. Click here to enlarge
    The post cat o2's are jumped in the harness. After going through my emails with Shiv, this was one of things he had me check. I think I will remove the heat shrink to see if maybe they did come disconnected. Just weird how these symptoms arose immediately after pre-cat O2 sensor replacement.
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  16. #16
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    Right, that would be the nature of the issue. One rear sensor (or two sensors in the same pipe) giving the same rear sensor reading to both banks. While primary sensors are left to deviate from bank to bank. Over time rear sensors are used to calibrate the primary sensors and rear sensor merge may cause the primary sensor calibration to grow apart. It's the same reason Vishnu suggested removing their "o2 simulator" wiring years ago. And the same reason we don't suggest using our DPFIX long term.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Right, that would be the nature of the issue. One rear sensor (or two sensors in the same pipe) giving the same rear sensor reading to both banks. While primary sensors are left to deviate from bank to bank. Over time rear sensors are used to calibrate the primary sensors and rear sensor merge may cause the primary sensor calibration to grow apart. It's the same reason Vishnu suggested removing their "o2 simulator" wiring years ago. And the same reason we don't suggest using our DPFIX long term.
    Do you know of any way to reset these adaptations? Or some other fix for this?
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  18. #18
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    I'll have to think about it and see if we can come up with some work around with the JB4 tuning once we get a local single turbo car to play around with. On the adaptions you can reset them using a BT tool or your procede (assuming they mapped the command out). I think it's called lambda trims or something similar.
    Last edited by Terry@BMS; 06-17-2013 at 01:52 PM.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    I'll have to think about it and see if we can come up with some work around with the JB4 tuning once we get a local single turbo car to play around with. On the adaptions you can reset them using a BT tool or your procede (assuming they mapped the command out). I think it's called lambda trims or something similar.
    Well I reset them with the Procede with no luck. As I understand it, the BT tool resets it the same way as INPA does (and apparently Procede). And seeing that resetting all adaptations with INPA hasn't helped me out...
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  20. #20
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    Once reset the the issue becomes how to get the sensors properly calibrated as installed. Most likely you'll have to get with Shiv to sort it out. It's a complex issue and I would guess only him, myself, or Cobb would be able to work through the details to come up with a workable solution.
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Got it fixed! I reset all the adaptations again with vasillov's(sp) daten files. Afterwards the idle afrs were practically one. On a 3rd gear pull fuel trims were within a couple percent of one another. Logs coming tonight.
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  22. #22
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    Right, now how to keep them there. I've always wondered what long term effect just unplugging the rear o2 sensors all together might have on this problem. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    Right, now how to keep them there. I've always wondered what long term effect just unplugging the rear o2 sensors all together might have on this problem. Click here to enlarge
    I don't mind doing this every 3k miles if I must. Yeah on my LS1 I just installed o2 sims for the rear. But I think they were only there to verify cat function. Not for calibrating the upstream o2s.
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

  24. #24
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    Well it was worth a shot. Did vishnu comment any further?

    Also, I thought the procede and JB4 could only reset STFT and STAFR.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    Well it was worth a shot. Did vishnu comment any further?

    Also, I thought the procede and JB4 could only reset STFT and STAFR.
    No I haven't heard anything from them in a while. Yea, initially Shiv said that it was long term adaptations that the Procede couldn't reset and I would have to have the dealer reset them (that or it was the injector seals).

    Hoping to get my secondary cats cut out later this week and 1790 vibrant resonators welded in... then to the dyno.

    Also a shout out to @vasillalov for the daten files!

    Fixed Idle:
    Click here to enlarge


    Fixed Standing Rev:
    Click here to enlarge


    Fixed Pull:
    Click here to enlarge


    Fixed Pull All:
    Click here to enlarge


    Throttle test after cleared adaptations:
    Click here to enlarge
    2008 335I E92, AW, VFF700, 18" Forgestar F14, M3 front/side, M-tech rear, AMS IC, H&R Touring Cup Kit suspension, HID AE, ER Charge Pipe & Synapse BOV, CIC Retrofit, Quafie, DSS, Defiv Lockdown, SPEC 2+/Steel SMFW, Walbro 450

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