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  1. #326
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    one a each end isn't it?.. no other bearings for the rest of it

    in what way are they machined together, too?

    i haven't seen enough of this before, so i have no idea what to think of it -_-
    Have a look at this:

    http://bmw.workshop-manuals.com/3_Se...dex.php?id=325

    Like Alex is saying, there are two rings at the front of the camshaft that seal oil for the Vanos system. These are not bearings, but seals. RealOEM calls them "rectangrings" (11317587757). The bearings the cam rides on are hydrodynamic bearings created by an oil film between the cam journals and the journals in the camshaft bearing ledges (bearing ledge part numbers: 11127550913 - intake, 11127531224 - exhaust). This is why alignment is so critical. I assume oil is pumped through the cam, and there are a couple small holes in each cam journal to let the oil out.

    There are not separate bearings for the camshaft journals like there are for the crankshaft journals. This is typical in DOHC engines as far as I know.

    The ledges have to be machined in such a way to ensure each journal is perfectly aligned and round in the ledge pair. This can only be done if the ledges are machined as a set, and they are sold as a set for this reason as well. Ordering the exhaust camshaft bearing ledge gets you two parts with one part number. Likewise for the intake bearing ledge. Two parts numbers, four bearing ledges. Two for intake, two for exhaust.
    Last edited by ajm8127; 06-28-2013 at 08:42 AM.
    Eppur si muove.

  2. #327
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by ajm8127 Click here to enlarge
    Have a look at this:

    http://bmw.workshop-manuals.com/3_Se...dex.php?id=325

    Like Alex is saying, there are two rings at the front of the camshaft that seal oil for the Vanos system. These are not bearings, but seals. RealOEM calls them "rectangrings" (11317587757). The bearings the cam rides on are hydrodynamic bearings created by an oil film between the cam journals and the journals in the camshaft bearing ledges (bearing ledge part numbers: 11127550913 - intake, 11127531224 - exhaust). This is why alignment is so critical. I assume oil is pumped through the cam, and there are a couple small holes in each cam journal to let the oil out.

    There are not separate bearings for the camshaft journals like there are for the crankshaft journals. This is typical in DOHC engines as far as I know.

    The ledges have to be machined in such a way to ensure each journal is perfectly aligned and round in the ledge pair. This can only be done if the ledges are machined as a set, and they are sold as a set for this reason as well. Ordering the exhaust camshaft bearing ledge gets you two parts with one part number. Likewise for the intake bearing ledge. Two parts numbers, four bearing ledges. Two for intake, two for exhaust.
    ahh thank

    so the 'bearing ledge' is that entire thing the length of the camshaft, in two halves?.. as in the 'housing' thing?.. right, i thought it was a bearing like a big end bearing, that comes in two halves that press in haha

    s by machined together, you mean they're originally made as a single part, then separated, but they have to be PERFECTLY joined back up in alignment together?

    and i remember something about said 'rectangring' parts that the new ones are stouter than the old ones (metal now or something?)
    boop

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    when i go back together, ill explain more in detail if yall need it.
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  4. #329
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    Search for rectangring on this forum Click here to enlarge
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  5. #330
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    Great threat full of very useful information. If the stock pistons can hold a lot power I would stick with the stock pistons since they have less thermal expansion than forged ones. With forged pistons overtime you will have a lot of blow by and noise, it will have to rebuild sooner than an engine with hypereutectic pistons.

    I come from the Subaru world, usually hypereutectic pistons fail by cracking the ring lands. This issue can be prevented by good tuning and keeping the tune det free. From the pictures it looks like the stock N54 piston is a very beefy piston Click here to enlarge

    I can't wait to join the bmw world Click here to enlarge

    Offtopic: how much torque/power can the manual transmission hold?

  6. #331
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    Great threat full of very useful information. If the stock pistons can hold a lot power I would stick with the stock pistons since they have less thermal expansion than forged ones. With forged pistons overtime you will have a lot of blow by and noise, it will have to rebuild sooner than an engine with hypereutectic pistons.
    Maybe the physical properties allow that to a degree but a forged piston will last longer at a certain power level kind of meaning the opposite and how much expansion will the piston really see? I never hear this as a complaint in big power built motors.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    Offtopic: how much torque/power can the manual transmission hold?
    They can probably build a clutch to hold whatever is necessary.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    Offtopic: how much torque/power can the manual transmission hold?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    They can probably build a clutch to hold whatever is necessary.
    His question still stands. I know on Corvettes there are numerous stock transmission T-56 failures on high powered cars, and a few shops that specialize in rebuilding them with stronger parts. With the levels upgraded turbo n54s are achieving, far above the manufacturer's maximum torque rating, we may begin to see if the manual trans has a weak point.

  8. #333
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    No one has broken a MT yet. They seem to be bulletproof.
    2011 335is DCT, JB4 + MHD BEF, stage 2 LPFP, e50 + 50/50 meth, FBO, MT ET Streets when needed


  9. #334
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    His question still stands. I know on Corvettes there are numerous stock transmission T-56 failures on high powered cars, and a few shops that specialize in rebuilding them with stronger parts. With the levels upgraded turbo n54s are achieving, far above the manufacturer's maximum torque rating, we may begin to see if the manual trans has a weak point.
    His question doesn't have an exact answer.

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  10. #335
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Maybe the physical properties allow that to a degree but a forged piston will last longer at a certain power level kind of meaning the opposite and how much expansion will the piston really see? I never hear this as a complaint in big power built motors.



    They can probably build a clutch to hold whatever is necessary.
    I guess you are correct to some degree.

    What I am saying if the stock hypereutectic piston can take 800whp without issues the engine will last longer than the same engine with a forged pistons; both with a det/knock free tune. The reason again is thermal expansion.

    If you look at the PTW clearance you will see that the recommend clearance for forged pistons is much larger than the clearance recommended for hypereutectic pistons (in some case no clearance ??). On cold start a forged piston (2618 alloy) will slap/hit the cylinder wall until it expands to its operational size. When this happens the cylinder wall will wear as well as the piston skirt and rings. Hypereutectic pistons don't really grow in size that why they are so quite on cold starts.

    The issue with hypereutectic pistons is that they are really strong but they are brittle. They cannot really take a lot of detonation, they will just break. This is where the forged pistons shine since it can takes a lot of detonation.

    Since E85 is available a knock free tune is possible. Is really hard to knock with E85, if you are knocking on E85 the tune is garbage. So if can run E85 and have the stock pistons your engine can last way longer than a forged piston engine.

    Another option is to run 4032 alloy forged pistons they will expand more than the hypereutectic pistons but less than the 2618 alloy forged pistons.

  11. #336
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    What I am saying if the stock hypereutectic piston can take 800whp without issues the engine will last longer than the same engine with a forged pistons; both with a det/knock free tune. The reason again is thermal expansion.
    I understand your point. My point being the forged piston can ultimately support a higher power level for longer.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    The issue with hypereutectic pistons is that they are really strong but they are brittle. They cannot really take a lot of detonation, they will just break. This is where the forged pistons shine since it can takes a lot of detonation.
    Makes sense. I think this is why we have seen blown motors at some much lower power levels than have been tossed around. It's in the tune.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Again I agree with you.

    But than again if the stock pistons supports 800whp without issues with a good tune.... why would someone spend time and a lot of money on forged slugs when a stock motor would be more reliable at 800whp?


    where is the 2jz comparison? Click here to enlarge

  13. #338
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    But than again if the stock pistons supports 800whp without issues with a good tune.... why would someone spend time and a lot of money on forged slugs when a stock motor would be more reliable at 800whp?
    Well we are assuming they will support 800 and for something more than a single pull. If people truly want big power the stock pitons have to go along with the stock rods. A whole lot of stock stuff actually.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    where is the 2jz comparison?
    Click here to enlarge

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  14. #339
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by andrew20195 Click here to enlarge
    His question still stands. I know on Corvettes there are numerous stock transmission T-56 failures on high powered cars, and a few shops that specialize in rebuilding them with stronger parts. With the levels upgraded turbo n54s are achieving, far above the manufacturer's maximum torque rating, we may begin to see if the manual trans has a weak point.
    with big singles, high enough numbers can be seen while keeping torque numbers in check

    it's if you want big numbers without shifting the power band to the right, you'll see transmissions struggling a bit more
    boop

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by juanmedina Click here to enlarge
    What I am saying if the stock hypereutectic piston can take 800whp without issues the engine will last longer than the same engine with a forged pistons; both with a det/knock free tune.
    I highly doubt they can take 800whp. We have seen 2 cars do over 700whp on a dyno (on a dynojet, which puts far less stress than a real world pull), but not much else other than that. Let's wait and see how many cars run at 700+whp as a daily or through many drag strip runs and see if the pistons hold.....my bet is no.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
    I highly doubt they can take 800whp. We have seen 2 cars do over 700whp on a dyno (on a dynojet, which puts far less stress than a real world pull), but not much else other than that. Let's wait and see how many cars run at 700+whp as a daily or through many drag strip runs and see if the pistons hold.....my bet is no.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
    I highly doubt they can take 800whp. We have seen 2 cars do over 700whp on a dyno (on a dynojet, which puts far less stress than a real world pull), but not much else other than that. Let's wait and see how many cars run at 700+whp as a daily or through many drag strip runs and see if the pistons hold.....my bet is no.
    Finally some common sense.

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    The tune would have to be SPOT on if you expected longevity on stock internals.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    The tune would have to be SPOT on if you expected longevity on stock internals.
    This is why power handling on stock internals evolves as tunes evolve. People forget supras were blowing motors at fairly low levels at one time.

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  20. #345
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    so the 'bearing ledge' is that entire thing the length of the camshaft, in two halves?
    Yes.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    s by machined together, you mean they're originally made as a single part, then separated, but they have to be PERFECTLY joined back up in alignment together?
    No. I'm sure they are made as separate parts. They are then clamped together as they would be when installed. The bore is then cut to maintain the precise tolerances on alignment, inside diameter, and roundness necessary for the hydrodynamic bearings to function properly. You have multiple journals along the bearing ledge that need to be very round, all the same size and all along the same axis. The easiest way to do this is cut them all together. A side effect of this method is you now have created a matched set of bearing ledges that must go together to maintain those critical tolerances because each set will be slightly different based on alignment in the jig, wear on the cutter, etc.

    If you look at the procedure for reinstalling the bearing ledges and cams, you will see the ledges need to be specially tensioned before installation, and then bolted down while tensioned to maintain their alignment.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Flinchy Click here to enlarge
    and i remember something about said 'rectangring' parts that the new ones are stouter than the old ones (metal now or something?)
    The rings were metal and now they are plastic because the metal ones were wearing grooves into the bearing ledge.
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  21. #346
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    we are toying around with grinding the crank, and putting some heavy duty bearings in it, then re-nitrating it, since we have a crank grinder and the technology to do so.....
    If you do, let me know. I'd be quite interested in this as I believe the crank to be one of the weak points of the N54, in particular with the huge torque levels it's running.

    Upgraded rod bearings are also a necessity if you race that car (as in road course, not drag racing). An acquaintance of mine had his engine re-built after his engine detonated at 300 km/h on a German autobahn.

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  22. #347
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    Until someone breaks a crank, I wouldn't worry about going billet or anything crazy. In fact, i bet the crank is the strongest thing on the bottom end of this engine. I was just looking at grinding the crank to either stroke/destroke the crank, or put heavy duty bearings we use in all the race cars and pro mod engines we build.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by alex@ABRhouston Click here to enlarge
    Until someone breaks a crank, I wouldn't worry about going billet or anything crazy. In fact, i bet the crank is the strongest thing on the bottom end of this engine. I was just looking at grinding the crank to either stroke/destroke the crank, or put heavy duty bearings we use in all the race cars and pro mod engines we build.
    Heavy duty bearings look like a good idea to my layman understanding of it.

    BTW there's someone over in the UK who built his engine some time ago (thread can be found over at e90post) with lighter forged pistons from CP (custom CR which I believe was similar to the one Alpina is using) and titanium rods, cylinder head job was done at the same time. Car has been taken apart after some driving to inspect the tolerances everywhere and now needs to be broken in again. Results / driving impressions have been very positive so far.

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    If someone wants to go with titanium rods in their car, they have money to burn. A set of Ti rods for this car would be 3,000+
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux Click here to enlarge
    Heavy duty bearings look like a good idea to my layman understanding of it.

    BTW there's someone over in the UK who built his engine some time ago (thread can be found over at e90post) with lighter forged pistons from CP (custom CR which I believe was similar to the one Alpina is using) and titanium rods, cylinder head job was done at the same time. Car has been taken apart after some driving to inspect the tolerances everywhere and now needs to be broken in again. Results / driving impressions have been very positive so far.

    Alpina_B3_Lux
    Ti rods?

    it says carillo rods on the post though. not custom titanium?

    nor do i remember a head job! (and can't see one mentioned in that poast now?)

    worst part of that post, is a year and a half+ later, no reports on it haha

    why would it need to be broken in again though?
    boop

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