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Thread: Boring and Sleeving a N54

              
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    Boring and Sleeving a N54

    I know a few people have looked into this, what has everyone found out.

    Is this possible and what would the cost be like?

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    There has been no reason to sleeve this block yet. The only reason to bore it would be to build it with forged internals. This is an open deck motor so boring/stroking prob isn't ideal. I'd say ideally you'd want to bore .010 and hone, hot tank, line bore the block and that's it. Then get the appropriate sized new internals and prob lower compression some to get some better pump gas numbers. If you're going to go the e85 route keep your 10.2:1 oem compression and call it good.
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    Machining is fairly cheap until you start talking about sleeving 6 cylinders. I'd say to bore, hone, line bore, balance and polish the crank $600-700 would be normal. Double that for sleeving also.
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    This brings back the cost vs reward issues.
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    The N54 comes sleeved stock... go look at the tear down pictures.

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    From what I just read it does indeed come with cast iron sleeves.
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    I wonder how thick the sleeves are and if boring at least .010 is possible
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    I wonder how thick the sleeves are and if boring at least .010 is possible
    All good info, + rep..

    People like you are the reason I asked the question.

    Considering its already sleeved, I wonder if it would be possible to bore enough to make sizable gains.
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    Since its already sleeved you're prob not going to be able to bore it enough to make sizable gains in displacement. Your biggest gains will come from the ability to customize your internals. If you want big HP on pump lower compression. Put in 1000hp internals and crank up the boost. If you want to run e85 and meth keep high compression pistons just upgrade them. Again crank the boost. This is all with the assumption you're running massive upgrades turbos.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90SoFlo Click here to enlarge
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    All good info, + rep..

    People like you are the reason I asked the question.

    Considering its already sleeved, I wonder if it would be possible to bore enough to make sizable gains.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    I wonder how thick the sleeves are and if boring at least .010 is possible
    There is enough sleeve to bore it .005, not sure about 0.010.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    There is enough sleeve to bore it .005, not sure about 0.010.
    not sure what stock bore is but I'd assume you'd need a custom piston at .005 over?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    not sure what stock bore is but I'd assume you'd need a custom piston at .005 over?
    Stock bore is 84mm. Stroke is 89.6mm. Stock rod length is 145mm.

    I have calculations for piston speed at all rpm too. It was a fun little math exercise. At 7000rpm, the pistons get up to 34.37 m/s! That's pretty fast.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    Stock bore is 84mm. Stroke is 89.6mm. Stock rod length is 145mm.

    I have calculations for piston speed at all rpm too. It was a fun little math exercise. At 7000rpm, the pistons get up to 34.37 m/s! That's pretty fast.
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bigdnno98 Click here to enlarge
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    There has been no reason to sleeve this block yet. The only reason to bore it would be to build it with forged internals. This is an open deck motor so boring/stroking prob isn't ideal. I'd say ideally you'd want to bore .010 and hone, hot tank, line bore the block and that's it. Then get the appropriate sized new internals and prob lower compression some to get some better pump gas numbers. If you're going to go the e85 route keep your 10.2:1 oem compression and call it good.
    You would only want to bore a small amount to fit the sleeves which would then be bored so the motor could have additional rebuilds. A mm here or there of added bore doesn't outweigh leaving more material.

    Someone also is going to need to address the open deck aspect.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    Stock bore is 84mm. Stroke is 89.6mm. Stock rod length is 145mm.

    I have calculations for piston speed at all rpm too. It was a fun little math exercise. At 7000rpm, the pistons get up to 34.37 m/s! That's pretty fast.
    4115.485564304461 feet per minute for the N54.

    Here is a list of the top 5 highest production piston speeds:

    1. Honda S2000:
    Engine Code: F20C1
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
    Redline: 9000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

    2. Lamborghini Gallardo
    Engine Code: N/A
    Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

    3. Acura Integra Type R
    Engine Code: B18C5
    Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
    Redline: 8400rpm
    Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

    4. BMW M3 (Germany)
    Engine Code: S54
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

    5. Honda S2000 2004
    Engine Code: F22C
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

    The S65 has 75.2 mm stroke. 4144.881889763779 feet per minute at 8400 rpm. That means the S65 experiences just about the same piston speed at 8400 rpm that the N54 does at 7000. One motor was made to rev, the other to mask turbo lag and pull stumps.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    4115.485564304461 feet per minute for the N54.

    Here is a list of the top 5 highest production piston speeds:

    1. Honda S2000:
    Engine Code: F20C1
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
    Redline: 9000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min

    2. Lamborghini Gallardo
    Engine Code: N/A
    Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min

    3. Acura Integra Type R
    Engine Code: B18C5
    Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
    Redline: 8400rpm
    Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min

    4. BMW M3 (Germany)
    Engine Code: S54
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min

    5. Honda S2000 2004
    Engine Code: F22C
    Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
    Redline: 8000rpm
    Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min

    The S65 has 75.2 mm stroke. 4144.881889763779 feet per minute at 8400 rpm. That means the S65 experiences just about the same piston speed at 8400 rpm that the N54 does at 7000. One motor was made to rev, the other to mask turbo lag and pull stumps.
    Those numbers are incorrect for max speed. You are giving the 'mean piston speed' which is the average over the whole stroke. The speeds are actually a lot faster. The math is not simple to get actual speeds. You have a crank that is rotating pulling on a rod at various angles. This means that the pistons don't move at the same speed throughout the stroke. Some parts of the circle on which the crank is rotating have more vertical speed than horizontal, plus add in the hinged rod and its angle, and you get a not simple equation.

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    ^you must know the rod length to calculate true speed. And without rod length you don't truly know if an engine was designed to rev higher. Mean piston speed will not change on an engine if you increase rod length. Yet increasing rod length will allow the same engine to rev higher because the rod is at less harsh angles. Mean piston speed is good at estimating with simple math, but true speeds should be calculated to know whether an engine has the ability to rev higher.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    Those numbers are incorrect for max speed. You are giving the 'mean piston speed' which is the average over the whole stroke. The speeds are actually a lot faster. The math is not simple to get actual speeds. You have a crank that is rotating pulling on a rod at various angles. This means that the pistons don't move at the same speed throughout the stroke. Some parts of the circle on which the crank is rotating have more vertical speed than horizontal, plus add in the hinged rod and its angle, and you get a not simple equation.
    What is the equation?

    Those numbers listed are all using the same calculation not sure how they are incorrect.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    If someone cares to give me the rod length of the S65, I can calculate the max piston speed of the s65.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    ^you must know the rod length to calculate true speed. And without rod length you don't truly know if an engine was designed to rev higher. Mean piston speed will not change on an engine if you increase rod length. Yet increasing rod length will allow the same engine to rev higher because the rod is at less harsh angles. Mean piston speed is good at estimating with simple math, but true speeds should be calculated to know whether an engine has the ability to rev higher.
    I don't think so as the N54 is an undersquare turbo motor with a lower redline it's clear it was not designed to rev high especially considering how high the piston speeds get. Yet the M3 has a oversquare design and revs to 8400 rpm to begin with and was tested up to 10k rpm. Additionally, BMW themselves increases the stroke thereby increasing the piston speed right? So I think it's really crystal clear although your defense is admirable albeit showing blind faith.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Twinturbom3
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    If someone cares to give me the rod length of the S65, I can calculate the max piston speed of the s65.
    Why don't you share what equation you're using with everyone?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    What is the equation?

    Those numbers listed are all using the same calculation not sure how they are incorrect.
    Those are 'mean piston speed', which is the stroke divided by time according to rpm to complete stroke. This does not account for the rod length at all. Think about the geometry of the rotating assembly. You have a crank going in a circle connected to a rod which connects to the piston. If you were to follow the crank, at the very top the crank is mostly moving horizontally, around 90 degrees it is mostly moving vertically. That should be enough to see that the piston speed will vary.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335Coupe Click here to enlarge
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    Those are 'mean piston speed', which is the stroke divided by time according to rpm to complete stroke. This does not account for the rod length at all. Think about the geometry of the rotating assembly. You have a crank going in a circle connected to a rod which connects to the piston. If you were to follow the crank, at the very top the crank is mostly moving horizontally, around 90 degrees it is mostly moving vertically. That should be enough to see that the piston speed will vary.
    Those are mean piston speeds but once again the numbers are all calculated using the same piston speed formula hence accurate. Additionally, the redline is taken into account and clearly the S65's shorter stroke design is due to being designed to keep piston speeds lower as it will be revving higher.

    Go ahead and share your formula once again for peak speed...
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    Someone also is going to need to address the open deck aspect.
    I think there are people already looking into this.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
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    I don't think so as the N54 is an undersquare turbo motor with a lower redline it's clear it was not designed to rev high especially considering how high the piston speeds get. Yet the M3 has a oversquare design and revs to 8400 rpm to begin with and was tested up to 10k rpm. Additionally, BMW themselves increases the stroke thereby increasing the piston speed right? So I think it's really crystal clear although your defense is admirable albeit showing blind faith.
    I wasn't defending anything or saying that the n54 was built to rev higher than the s65. I highly doubt that would be the case. My blind faith is called math and engineering. All I'm saying is that those numbers are mean piston speeds. Mean piston speeds are a good starting point, but you can vary rod length to decrease max piston speed. This is not shown in the calculation of mean piston speed.

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