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Thread: N20 Owners

  1. #26
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Not to call BS here. But 650 hp on the N54? Really, what turbos were they running? RB's were not available then, even if they were, they are not more then 475-500 on pump, we know they were not spraying meth. So you are saying with a set of stock turbos and pump gas or even race gas they were putting out 650 hp. That's not possible. So I am taking all these "facts" as nothing more then a rumor, as I said stuff like this was said about the N54 when it first came out as well.
    Maybe nitrous.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by m54b25 Click here to enlarge
    Well, I have a few questions before flaming BMW:

    a) Number 1 question. Going beyond Stage2 from who???
    b) Which BMW N20 engines variations (w/corresponding rpm)..which one did they use for testing?:
    -135kW at 5000rpm maximum power & 270Nm at 12504800rpm
    -180kW at 5000rpm maximum power & 350Nm at 12504800rpm
    c) The engine was designed for a maximum combustion-chamber peak pressure
    of 130 bar. How much peak pressure did your source tested the engine at??
    d) The department Manager Inline engines Projects, department Manager design
    Inline engine & director development petrol engines at BMW Ag in Munich; went thru required test cycles and under real-life condition to approve this engines for at least 3-4 years ahead of engine production. How come it nows get FEA test again?
    e) Obviously, an increase from 350Nm to 450nm...~73.75ftlb crank grain from a tuning box it will mean problems, since it has no control over many Lambda strategy functions.

    Hope you can shed some more light on this since a gravity die-cast
    AlSi7MgCu0.5 alloy heat-treated cylinder head seems pretty strong in design.

    Stage 2 definitely varies by tuner but ultimately the warning seems to be past 331 pound-feet.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by E90Company Click here to enlarge
    Maybe nitrous.
    If testing it on a bench that's a bit different.

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    2 out of 2 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Thank god, I didn't bother getting a Fxx.

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    There seems to be interested. The problem right now is cores. The cars are so new there are not many floating around. What I am going to do is buy the parts needed for the stage 1 and we will have to do a send in and upgrade program with a guarantee of 1 day turnaround. I will be posting pricing in the next week or so.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Not to call BS here. But 650 hp on the N54? Really, what turbos were they running? RB's were not available then, even if they were, they are not more then 475-500 on pump, we know they were not spraying meth. So you are saying with a set of stock turbos and pump gas or even race gas they were putting out 650 hp. That's not possible. So I am taking all these "facts" as nothing more then a rumor, as I said stuff like this was said about the N54 when it first came out as well.
    More often than not the R&D guys use one off turbos for different testing. The first N54 test mule was a single turbo.
    The same happens software wise. There are many internal files with various power levels. Sometimes these leak and it's the beginning step for most tuners in the evolution of the tunes. You can see with the F10 M5 that most guys are using a "press file" with similar gains as it's what is being bounced around. Soon a stronger file will come out as it leaks across tuning houses. SAme is going to happen with F Series N20 with a 230whp 320i file being the first to hit the steers.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    More often than not the R&D guys use one off turbos for different testing. The first N54 test mule was a single turbo.
    The same happens software wise. There are many internal files with various power levels. Sometimes these leak and it's the beginning step for most tuners in the evolution of the tunes. You can see with the F10 M5 that most guys are using a "press file" with similar gains as it's what is being bounced around. Soon a stronger file will come out as it leaks across tuning houses. SAme is going to happen with F Series N20 with a 230whp 320i file being the first to hit the steers.
    Ok thats all well and good, so if this guy is such good friends with said testers, then what turbo / turbos were they running? And there already people making more then those numbers he claims are fail point and have been doing so for a while and the engine has been fine. As I said, still calling bs on this. BMW is not going to produce a motor that fails at those levels, that is my opinion, and is just that opinion. But until he can tell us some more details, what he is saying doesn't really add up.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ok thats all well and good, so if this guy is such good friends with said testers, then what turbo / turbos were they running? And there already people making more then those numbers he claims are fail point and have been doing so for a while and the engine has been fine. As I said, still calling bs on this. BMW is not going to produce a motor that fails at those levels, that is my opinion, and is just that opinion. But until he can tell us some more details, what he is saying doesn't really add up.
    I also call bull$#@!. This shouldn't have even made front page.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    I also call bull$#@!. This shouldn't have even made front page.
    I disagree. It's very interesting.

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    I think some good points are being made....how can they run a n54 to 600+ hp on stock turbos? Hmmm. If they did swap out turbos to run up the hp, why would they even do this? They would have to make a lot of changes just to make it work.... I call bull$#@! also

    Maybe they estimate the n54 being able to make 600+ but it's only a estimation
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    I call bs on this to be honest. I had one of the pretty well known euro tuners (who makes downpipes) claim that without a flex section in the downpipes the heads would 100% crack on the N54 Click here to enlarge how many are running downpipes with flex sections in them again?
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    I call bs on this to be honest. I had one of the pretty well known euro tuners (who makes downpipes) claim that without a flex section in the downpipes the heads would 100% crack on the N54 Click here to enlarge how many are running downpipes with flex sections in them again?
    What does the N54 have to do with the N20 though?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What does the N54 have to do with the N20 though?
    Forgot to highlight, this is just an opinion based on what we've lived through before...take it FWIW
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    What does the N54 have to do with the N20 though?
    Bc the op's source said that about the n54. How reliable is the source when we all know how much hardware changes are required to make that power on a n54?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    I would be extremely cautious on going beyond stage 2 on the N20 engine. My good friend does FEA and actual engine limit testing for multiple companies. BMW is one of their customers. They are currently working with bmw to try and correct issues with the N20 head cracking at ~450nm. The believe its due to multiple heat cycles and the engine it self running so hot.

    He also said the crank will become an issue not far beyond the breaking point of the head.
    We're running ours at 300whp / 350wtq (dynojet) and so far it's running well. Will throw a larger turbo on it as soon as its available so we can see if there is any truth to that! Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    Bc the op's source said that about the n54. How reliable is the source when we all know how much hardware changes are required to make that power on a n54?
    The op's source said the N54 was fine to 600 hp or so I thought? It was a euro tuner that said the N54 head would crack right?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Terry@BMS Click here to enlarge
    We're running ours at 300whp / 350wtq (dynojet) and so far it's running well. Will throw a larger turbo on it as soon as its available so we can see if there is any truth to that! Click here to enlarge
    T, some guy in russia was claiming 463WTQ and 358 WHP (on your Software so I am sure you know) thats well above what the guy above is claiming as the limits. I ordered some parts for the turbo, not exactly sure how long they will take, but hopefully not too long. Soon as its done, Ill send it to you and you can send me your core back. See what that baby can do.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    T, some guy in russia was claiming 463WTQ and 358 WHP (on your Software so I am sure you know) thats well above what the guy above is claiming as the limits. I ordered some parts for the turbo, not exactly sure how long they will take, but hopefully not too long. Soon as its done, Ill send it to you and you can send me your core back. See what that baby can do.
    Lot of Russians full of $#@! with dyno numbers as of late.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Lot of Russians full of $#@! with dyno numbers as of late.
    In Russia, horsepower dynos itself.
    Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by klipseracer Click here to enlarge
    In Russia, horsepower dynos itself.
    Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by George Smooth Click here to enlarge
    More often than not the R&D guys use one off turbos for different testing. The first N54 test mule was a single turbo.
    This was his exact answer to me. They are supplied multiple turbos and injectors that can safely flow these higher power levels. Bmw does not give them turbo specs. They are testing the engine block/heads amd all the internals not the external components. They dont even use the oem hpfp's. they have an external unit that can run fuel on a DI engine. They only test on engine dyno's and follow what bmw or whoever else wants to test at. They are modified stock turbos on the n20 they are testing and bmw supplied them with the engines. As far as the n54/n55 bmw again supplied them with modified larger turbo/s. bmw specifically had them do longevity tests at 450-500hp. They (the engine testers) wanted to see how well a few would handle the higher hp and nothing broke. The new m3 will be near those hp marks so maybe this was their way to find weakness in the n54/55 to build a better next gen M engine.
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by VargasTurboTech Click here to enlarge
    Ok thats all well and good, so if this guy is such good friends with said testers, then what turbo / turbos were they running? And there already people making more then those numbers he claims are fail point and have been doing so for a while and the engine has been fine. As I said, still calling bs on this. BMW is not going to produce a motor that fails at those levels, that is my opinion, and is just that opinion. But until he can tell us some more details, what he is saying doesn't really add up.
    Call BS all you want. I see threads and hear people talking up the N20 on all othe bmw forums like its the next n54 freak engine that can handle crazy power. In the end it's not. If you read back I never said they will fail at those levels right away like everyone thought I implied. They put these engines through some extreme stress and pretty heavy heat cycling. He even said he would feel safe on a n20 at those power levels for ~100k miles. It's unknown how long it will last beyond those levels in terms of reliability. Sure you may make 400lbft but for how long?
    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by bobS Click here to enlarge
    I think some good points are being made....how can they run a n54 to 600+ hp on stock turbos? Hmmm. If they did swap out turbos to run up the hp, why would they even do this? They would have to make a lot of changes just to make it work.... I call bull$#@! also
    Read above. Every forced induction engine they test weather it's GM, bmw, ford, or vw. They test at much higher than stock power levels. This helps them find failure points much earlier in their engine cycles and gives assurance of the long term reliability of the engine. I guess take what I say with a grain of salt. This was told to me by a real engineer within the FEA testing world. He has no reason to lie to me and I have no reason to lie. If its felt that strongly it's BS then delete all my posts. Again I posted this info to just be a soft warning to the current and potential n20 owners with thoughts of going crazy on it. The n20 is and always will be an entry level engine and bmw has no reason to overbuild it and increase the engine cost to handle 100% over stock power. On the other hand the n54/55 was intended from the get go to eventually go in M cars due to fuel economy requirements, and would put them back in the game against their competitors. Overbuilding the n54/55 is in their better interests.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    This was his exact answer to me. They are supplied multiple turbos and injectors that can safely flow these higher power levels. Bmw does not give them turbo specs. They are testing the engine block/heads amd all the internals not the external components. They dont even use the oem hpfp's. they have an external unit that can run fuel on a DI engine. They only test on engine dyno's and follow what bmw or whoever else wants to test at. They are modified stock turbos on the n20 they are testing and bmw supplied them with the engines. As far as the n54/n55 bmw again supplied them with modified larger turbo/s. bmw specifically had them do longevity tests at 450-500hp. They (the engine testers) wanted to see how well a few would handle the higher hp and nothing broke. The new m3 will be near those hp marks so maybe this was their way to find weakness in the n54/55 to build a better next gen M engine. Call BS all you want. I see threads and hear people talking up the N20 on all othe bmw forums like its the next n54 freak engine that can handle crazy power. In the end it's not. If you read back I never said they will fail at those levels right away like everyone thought I implied. They put these engines through some extreme stress and pretty heavy heat cycling. He even said he would feel safe on a n20 at those power levels for ~100k miles. It's unknown how long it will last beyond those levels in terms of reliability. Sure you may make 400lbft but for how long? Read above. Every forced induction engine they test weather it's GM, bmw, ford, or vw. They test at much higher than stock power levels. This helps them find failure points much earlier in their engine cycles and gives assurance of the long term reliability of the engine. I guess take what I say with a grain of salt. This was told to me by a real engineer within the FEA testing world. He has no reason to lie to me and I have no reason to lie. If its felt that strongly it's BS then delete all my posts. Again I posted this info to just be a soft warning to the current and potential n20 owners with thoughts of going crazy on it. The n20 is and always will be an entry level engine and bmw has no reason to overbuild it and increase the engine cost to handle 100% over stock power. On the other hand the n54/55 was intended from the get go to eventually go in M cars due to fuel economy requirements, and would put them back in the game against their competitors. Overbuilding the n54/55 is in their better interests.
    you know what I'm hearing, the same record being played everytime a new BMW motor comes out, it was tested its gonna break here, oh wait, no here! Oh wait no here!!! N54 had the same story. It now sits over 700 on the stock block. Show us some proof, so he has no idea what the turbos were, they just bolted sonething up to it and away they went 650 hp. I also had a beer with big foot last night. But I forgot the name of the bar he hangs in.

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    I have a friend (acquaintance) that works at BorgWarner in Chicago doing stress testing/failure analysis... I have not personally witnessed him doing this, but he claims that manufacturers do send them motors to find the failure points. I think there are two sides to this coin - I think people are hearing "X HP/ft-lb is the failure point of the N20" and not believing it because someone hit that number already in the tuning scene. On the other hand - there is a HUGE difference between running full load for a few minutes a day - and a few hours a day. I think that's the difference - these guys are trying to destroy an engine. Most sane individuals don't try to do this to their own cars. Click here to enlarge

    Take it with a grain of salt as they say, I have no idea about how BMW tests their stuff, just know what I have heard in regard to other manufacturers.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Charrigan Click here to enlarge
    This was his exact answer to me. They are supplied multiple turbos and injectors that can safely flow these higher power levels. Bmw does not give them turbo specs. They are testing the engine block/heads amd all the internals not the external components. They dont even use the oem hpfp's. they have an external unit that can run fuel on a DI engine. They only test on engine dyno's and follow what bmw or whoever else wants to test at. They are modified stock turbos on the n20 they are testing and bmw supplied them with the engines. As far as the n54/n55 bmw again supplied them with modified larger turbo/s. bmw specifically had them do longevity tests at 450-500hp. They (the engine testers) wanted to see how well a few would handle the higher hp and nothing broke. The new m3 will be near those hp marks so maybe this was their way to find weakness in the n54/55 to build a better next gen M engine. Call BS all you want. I see threads and hear people talking up the N20 on all othe bmw forums like its the next n54 freak engine that can handle crazy power. In the end it's not. If you read back I never said they will fail at those levels right away like everyone thought I implied. They put these engines through some extreme stress and pretty heavy heat cycling. He even said he would feel safe on a n20 at those power levels for ~100k miles. It's unknown how long it will last beyond those levels in terms of reliability. Sure you may make 400lbft but for how long? Read above. Every forced induction engine they test weather it's GM, bmw, ford, or vw. They test at much higher than stock power levels. This helps them find failure points much earlier in their engine cycles and gives assurance of the long term reliability of the engine. I guess take what I say with a grain of salt. This was told to me by a real engineer within the FEA testing world. He has no reason to lie to me and I have no reason to lie. If its felt that strongly it's BS then delete all my posts. Again I posted this info to just be a soft warning to the current and potential n20 owners with thoughts of going crazy on it. The n20 is and always will be an entry level engine and bmw has no reason to overbuild it and increase the engine cost to handle 100% over stock power. On the other hand the n54/55 was intended from the get go to eventually go in M cars due to fuel economy requirements, and would put them back in the game against their competitors. Overbuilding the n54/55 is in their better interests.
    I like what you wrote but completely disagree that the n54 and n55 were built woth m's in mind. The n54 came out before the s65 and was entry level as well. Just because it's head doesn't crack doesn't mean it's built for big hp. It just keans it's not defective.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by inlineS54B32 Click here to enlarge
    I have a friend (acquaintance) that works at BorgWarner in Chicago doing stress testing/failure analysis... I have not personally witnessed him doing this, but he claims that manufacturers do send them motors to find the failure points. I think there are two sides to this coin - I think people are hearing "X HP/ft-lb is the failure point of the N20" and not believing it because someone hit that number already in the tuning scene. On the other hand - there is a HUGE difference between running full load for a few minutes a day - and a few hours a day. I think that's the difference - these guys are trying to destroy an engine. Most sane individuals don't try to do this to their own cars. Click here to enlarge

    Take it with a grain of salt as they say, I have no idea about how BMW tests their stuff, just know what I have heard in regard to other manufacturers.
    Best post so far.

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