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  1. #26
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    I reset the LTFT last year, it didn't make much of a difference. The STFT are obviously applying a large correction, in reaction to meth going primarily to one bank. I'll give it another shot tomorrow or this weekend though.

    Also keep in mind that my commute is about 110km a day, and I'm not shy with the throttle.

    A little separation off meth never really bothered me since I was using 94Oct on a conservative map. I'm trying to get a good map on 91 this year.

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    FWIW here is my log taken on 54F ambient day.

    Tzu.....after you coded my injectors for me, my trims on bank 1 spread WAY further than this. If you recall, you couldn't bring up my long terms adaptations on INPA, so we never reset them.

    I later had the long term adaptations reset via my mechanic using an autologic and the trims got much better but still some divergence as per this datalog:
    .
    .
    Oh....I should also mention that I am running only 70% duty cycle on the FAV in the meth injection tables. Josh provided me with this map a while ago and I found it improved the atomization without compromising too much meth flow.
    .
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by DCAFS; 06-14-2013 at 09:19 PM.

  3. #28
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    Here is what my trims looked like before LT adaptations were reset.


    Click here to enlarge

  4. #29
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    @DCAFS Interesting. FWIW, I couldn't view your injector adaptations. INPA can reset your LTFT adaptations all and well. It's also interesting that according to the haltech software, your bank 1 is receiving most of the meth.

    I've moved the nozzles tonight and reset the LTFT adaptations. Doing this can't rule out which was more effective, but I'll take some logs tomorrow.

    @rader1 , sorry I couldn't grab some IAT logs for you with the nozzles at the IC outlet. I tried tonight but he laptop died. Tonight was the only night I could move the nozzles. The old logs (with the choppy meth DC in the logs) were likely done with the stock FMIC anyway, and I'm running a helix V1 now. The comparison wouldn't be even.

  5. #30
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Reset LTFT and STFT. After about 8-10 WOT pull sin 3rd, here are the adaptations, as a screenshot at idle. I don't see any significant underlying problem, it appears that bank 1 is running lower that stoich at idle likely due to baseline adapting while on meth:

    Click here to enlarge

    Moved nozzle from the lower IC outlet to CP inlet silicone coupler as follows:

    Click here to enlarge

    Two logs taken after resetting LTFT and 8-10 WOT pulls to provide a baseline:

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    After seeing that, I tried moving the nozzles back to the CP. Reset adaptations again and logs are as follows:

    Click here to enlarge
    Click here to enlarge

    I also took a vid of the nozzles spraying in the coupler, but I don't have a youtube account nor was there any cloggage issues, so that is moot. If anyone wants to see it, suggest a website to host it.

    The distribution appears to be much more homogeneous while in the IC outlet, but all scenarios result in a strong deviation after a certain RPM. Suggestions?

  6. #31
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    Cause -> Intake manifold design..
    Click here to enlarge

  7. #32
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by dzenno@PTF Click here to enlarge
    Cause -> Intake manifold design..
    I agree that the manifold is a poor design, but everyone else is running the same manifold and seeing <5% deviation. Why am I seeing >20%?

    I was thinking it might be carbon buildup, and my cyl 4-5-6 has historically been worse, but I clean them once a year, last one was about 15k km ago. I might borescope it next weekend.

  8. #33
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    The design itself may not really be that poor, not great but not poor either. The greatest cause may just be spraying meth down the charge pipe for fueling and not having the same distribution at all times.

    In terms of everyone else seeing 5% and you seeing 20%, not sure there either. It could be a number of things, not necessarily just meth nozzle location related but at best anyone's opinion at this point is probably a guess at best.
    Click here to enlarge

  9. #34
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I agree that the manifold is a poor design, but everyone else is running the same manifold and seeing <5% deviation. Why am I seeing >20%?

    I was thinking it might be carbon buildup, and my cyl 4-5-6 has historically been worse, but I clean them once a year, last one was about 15k km ago. I might borescope it next weekend.
    You can adjust the scalar from bank to bank if you want to tweak it so they match up off meth. Click here to enlarge
    Burger Motorsports
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    It is the sole responsibility of the purchaser and installer of any BMS part to employ the correct installation techniques required to ensure the proper operation of BMS parts, and BMS disclaims any and all liability for any part failure due to improper installation or use. It is the sole responsibility of the customer to verify that the use of their vehicle and items purchased comply with federal, state and local regulations. BMS claims no legal federal, state or local certification concerning pollution controlled motor vehicles or mandated emissions requirements. BMS products labeled for use only in competition racing vehicles may only be used on competition racing vehicles operated exclusively on a closed course in conjunction with a sanctioned racing event, in accordance with all federal and state laws, and may never be operated on public roads/highways. Please see http://www.burgertuning.com/emissions_info.html for more information on legal requirements related to use of BMS parts.

  10. #35
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I agree that the manifold is a poor design, but everyone else is running the same manifold and seeing <5% deviation. Why am I seeing >20%?

    I was thinking it might be carbon buildup, and my cyl 4-5-6 has historically been worse, but I clean them once a year, last one was about 15k km ago. I might borescope it next weekend.
    Tzu....my deviation is up to 15% on that earlier good log I posted. Not quite as bad as yours, but similar issue.

    I could swear I didn't have as big a deviation until I changed injectors 4-6 last year.

    But my trims off-meth are nearly the same, so it appears to be a meth only distribution issue.

    My trims deviate more in colder winter temps and improve with warmer temps.......so better evaporation in summer reduces my spread to more acceptable levels, but they are still kind of wide for my liking.

    Would love to get my trims down to 5% deviation like most others as you mention.

    In any case, you are not alone in this issue.

    Uneven carbon buildup between banks makes a lot of sense to me since meth flows past the intake valves while pump gas is directly injected. Might explain why trims off-meth are perfectly normal.
    Last edited by DCAFS; 06-17-2013 at 02:40 AM.

  11. #36
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    It's annoying because I was ready to pick up a Cobb and experiment with adding in some baseline timing up top. That's impossible when all the meth is going to bank 1 up top.

    It's clear that trims down low are benefiting with nozzles at the IC outlet. I'll test my shear theory, and borescope my valves in the next couple weeks.

    Can anyone confirm the air velocity in the charge piping at redline?

  12. #37
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    Good data Tzu. I assume "multiplication adaption" is LTFT. If reset isn't confirmed I would check INPA and then immediately plug in logger to confirm correct channels and reset works... I may do it with Cobb when I have some time.

    Your off-meth log looked to be similar trim pattern IIRC (maybe not as severe) but the run was cut short. You have one revving out?
    Trims are a measurement based on the injector stamped code relating electrical/piezo stack calibrations... X voltage=Y needle movement. If the hardware is not synced correctly, this could show in DME thinking its adding more/less fuel.

  13. #38
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    Yeah, I got new injectors a month ago, verifying coding is on my list of things to do.

  14. #39
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    Did a meth log using the pre-turbo injection only (dual M3s), with the CM14 shut down, and interestingly enough with pre-turbo injection I'm not seeing any bank to bank variance.

    For the next batch of BMS chargepipes I made a couple nozzle adjustments so will be very curious now to log it when they show up! Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    Yeah, I got new injectors a month ago, verifying coding is on my list of things to do.
    My thought is that coding may not be the issue but unknown tolerance/functional variances throwing off DME volume calcs. Swapping bank injectors would be very telling. But more of a last resort as its a little troublesome. Of course if coding is off it could have a similar effect.

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    @Terry@BMS, curious what your adjustments were?

    @JoshBoody, I'm going to verify that it is coded correctly, but I seriously doubt it's the issue. I personally coded @DCAFS's injectors and look at his results. There is another item at play here in addition to nozzle location.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No

    In the cold side up-pipe...

    Here is an old log showing the same trim split you have...
    Click here to enlarge

    This was with two 1mm nozzles in the ER charge pipe, with a 60/40 mix.
    After posting for info and support on the other site I moved them into the up pipe 180* out from each other 2.5 inches apart. As far away from the throttle body as possible. In this pic you can see the lower of the two nozzles.
    Click here to enlarge

    I have gone through all of the settings and issues you have. Checking coding on injectors using inpa, I changed my meth mix to 80/20, valve cleaning, #4 injector replaced, Iím using the procede and have only played with the user adjustables. I had to de-mod the car for a few months for a move. After my move and re-modding my car, the logs look like this.
    Click here to enlarge
    Iíve done many logs after moving the nozzles and this is the first to come close to maxing a trim, and the separation is nothing like it used to be.

    I wish there were less variables to my fix. I know that right after I moved the nozzles and changed my OL fueling to 92 (Map 1) & 98 (Map 2), my trim separation was much improved, I just donít have that log handy anymore.


    ~Nate

  18. #43
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    @JoshBoody , I'm going to verify that it is coded correctly, but I seriously doubt it's the issue. I personally coded @DCAFS 's injectors and look at his results. There is another item at play here in addition to nozzle location.
    Your coding was spot on in my case.......values were verified when I had the LT adaptations reset. So you are probably not going to find anything wrong in your coding values.

    IIRC you could not access my LT adaptation menu for some unknown reason (probably different platform from your car, mine being an E82).

    So I wasn't sure if you reset the LT's or just couldn't read them after resetting? Do you recall?

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    @dblrguy, That's the info I'm looking for! Much appreciated. 180* was my next target, but everyone days 45* is best. If flow is shearing, then at least 180* splits the shear to each side of the pipe.

    @DCFS I don't recall if I couldn't access the menu, or if I couldn't find it. I reset long term O2 sensor adaptations in my case, maybe I'll try injector adaptions as well.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    If flow is shearing, then at least 180* splits the shear to each side of the pipe.
    Interested in your results too. I don't see how the difference from 45* to 180* can make that big of an impact. Other than the two streams joining at the first bend. You would also have to take into account flow dynamics through all of the bends, as well as the actual clock position of the nozzle. How the shear flows through a coupler bend vs. a pipe bend... Stuff that is way outside my level of edjucation.Click here to enlarge

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    Welp, moved nozzles to be 180* in the coupler, driver and passenger, and the log looks identical to the original post. I havn't had time to create screenshots, but there was nil change with this setup.
    @dblrguy

    Clocked it about 2 "hours" so one was closer to front and one closer to rear, still 180*, same thing. 2 more silicone couplers gone, my count is up to 7 now lol.

    Couple things: The coupler itself has a lot of turbulence in it I imagine, where it meets the exit of the IC and the entrance flange of the up pipe. Sheer flow + wall turbulence = same results, regardless of nozzle location.

    Going to check a few things this weekend. Will report back.

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    If you want a very thorough diagnosis, swap bank injectors. I really think much has to do with injection actual vs calculated operation and unfortunately you have potentially 3 grouped into 1 bank putting you at 1 extreme of more or less fuel from target. The bank difference would increase per volume if this was the case.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by JoshBoody Click here to enlarge
    If you want a very thorough diagnosis, swap bank injectors. I really think much has to do with injection actual vs calculated operation and unfortunately you have potentially 3 grouped into 1 bank putting you at 1 extreme of more or less fuel from target. The bank difference would increase per volume if this was the case.
    I'll add this to the list of things to do.

    However, can you explain how this is continuing to happen with new injectors since last month? Confirmed this afternoon that they, as my old set, were coded correctly.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Tzu Click here to enlarge
    I'll add this to the list of things to do.

    However, can you explain how this is continuing to happen with new injectors since last month? Confirmed this afternoon that they, as my old set, were coded correctly.
    Well if it was happening before and after completely new injectors with similar diversion, I'd say my thought is inaccurate or very unfortunate coincidence for you. Sorry, if I missed you explaining this already.

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    Tzu......what are your trims like off-meth?

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